Pre Poll Discussion: Structuring of the CoL

[UnOrthOdOx]

This is to discuss how amendments will be added to the Code of Laws in the future. To set up a standard to prevent so much debate as ha been occurring here recently. No Idea is perfect, so weneed as much input as possible.

Recapping the debate, current administration proposed ammendments to reword the constitution. I became VERY vocal against such a thing, and many seemed to support my views. Timeline then proposed a compromise plan that took care of most, if not all, my objections, and provides what they wished for as well.

The proposed structuring is thus:

Here is what our CoL would look like:

Minister of the Military:
This officer is the principal military advisor to the President and the people, and prepares military plans and reviews overall military requirements for our nation. He/She also has the responsibility to assess threats to the security of the country and keep everyone up to date on these threats.

The Military Advisor is granted the power to set up the army's strategy. He tells what troops to move where, and which battles to engage.

The Military Advisor is granted the right to take an active part in negotiations of Peace Treaties, Mutual Protection Pacts, or a Right of Passage agreements. (Note: The Foreign Advisor calls the shots, but the Military Advisor must have his voice heard).


Minister of Foreign Affairs:

This minister is given the power to enter into diplomatic negotiations with other countries, however should refrain from making commitments until approved by the people.

The Foreign Advisor is granted the power to make peace, accept Mutual Protection Pacts, offer Right of Passage Agreements, and forge Military Alliances.

The exchange of all items, except Luxury, Gold, or Strategic resources falls on the broad shoulders of the Foreign Affairs Minister. It is, however, strongly recommended that the Foreign Affairs Minister consults with other ministers whose office may be affected by such trades.

This Minister is required to consult the Minister of Economy when Luxury, Gold, or Strategic resources are involved in a trade.

Trade Embargos must first be approved by both the Minister of Economy and Foreign Affairs Minister before they may be enforced. -Amendment IV (07/20/02)

City Planner:
The City Planner is truly an artist and an economist, for he is responsible for making the foundation of our nation, cities, as prosperous and successful as possible. The City Planner manages building queues and citizens, but may also request the Public Works minister to improve city tiles when needed.

The City Planner is strongly recommended to accommodate all Ministers who approach him/her with their various needs.


Now, here is the Amendment section:

Article IV: Amendments

Amendment IV: Rewording of Minister of Foreign Affairs
Date amended: July 20, 2002
Acting President: Ninot
Location: Article 1, “Minister of Foreign Affairs”
Comments: Reworded section to make reference to Minister of Economy, changed laws regulating Trade Embargoes.

Previous wording:
“Minister of Foreign Affairs:
This minister is the government’’s chief advisor on foreign affairs and is responsible for carrying out foreign policy. He/She is given the power to enter into diplomatic negotiations with other countries, however should refrain from making commitments until approved by the people.

The Foreign Advisor is granted the power to make peace, accept Mutual Protection Pacts, offer Right of Passage Agreements, and forge Military Alliances. The exchange of all items, except Strategic, Luxury, or Gold resources falls on the broad shoulders of the Foreign Affairs Minister. It is strongly recommended that the Foreign Affairs Minister consult the appropriate ministers when gifts or exchanges are involved.

This Minister is required to consult the Trade advisor when Gold, Luxury or Strategic resources are involved.”

If structured in suh a way, it will provide easy reading for those who wish to look things up quickly, without having to read all the ammendments as they will have been changed in the original body. It also preserves as a referance and historical view the original text which will be contained in the 'ammendment' section.

Please post with any suggestions to better refine this idea.

[Jon Shafer]

As long as we don't delete anything, I'm fine with it.

[Ninot]

I support this

[Kuciwalker]

Can we have a complete copy and a restructured copy? One that we use practically, the other for history.

[kring]

I support this.

[Aro]

Me too. And we should keep the two copies, as mentioned by Skywalker.

[Kloreep]

I support skywalker's two copy proposal.

[Spiffor]

Sorry if I missed something (it pretty late here ), but is this sugestion different from the compromise suggested by Timeline in the poll ?
Anyways, I agree with this proposal, because the CoL remains clear : all old and useless things are pushed in the last section. The beginning of the document shows current laws only, which is what I'm looking for.

Should this compromise be suggested in a poll, I'd vote for it because it satisfies me, and it would have more chances to win.

A constructive sidenote : maybe we should work a little bit on the style of the amendment (I mean : bold characters, italics etc.)

I suggest an amendment would look like this :

Amendment IV: Rewording of Minister of Foreign Affairs
Date amended: July 20, 2002
Acting President: Ninot
Location: Article 1, “Minister of Foreign Affairs”
Comments: Reworded section to make reference to Minister of Economy, changed laws regulating Trade Embargoes.

Previous wording:

Quote:

Minister of Foreign Affairs: This minister is the government’’s chief advisor on foreign affairs and is responsible for carrying out foreign policy. He/She is given the power to enter into diplomatic negotiations with other countries, however should refrain from making commitments until approved by the people. The Foreign Advisor is granted the power to make peace, accept Mutual Protection Pacts, offer Right of Passage Agreements, and forge Military Alliances. The exchange of all items, except Strategic, Luxury, or Gold resources falls on the broad shoulders of the Foreign Affairs Minister. It is strongly recommended that the Foreign Affairs Minister consult the appropriate ministers when gifts or exchanges are involved. This Minister is required to consult the Trade advisor when Gold, Luxury or Strategic resources are involved.

This way, we'll dinstict amendments more clearly when there are hundreds of them. I also suggest most recent amendments are the first to show in the amendment section.

[civman2000]

Small tweak, otehr wise is good: portions of the original constitution that have changed should be italicized.

[Timeline]

Spiffor, what you propose is fine. I only spent about 10 minutes (not even that) making up that demonstration, and your improvement is about right.

As for new amendments appearing first, I don't think this would work. You see, amendments in this section are numbered (amendment I, II, III, IV, etc) And they would appear from 1 to the last. So this would mean new ones will probably appear last (not a big deal, I don't think).

For my next trick, I will demonstrate how our entire CoL would look after being "restructured".

Any objection to me calling this (hopefully) future amendment "Timeline's New Deal"?

It could be the mark of my career in government

[Timeline]

Originally posted by civman2000
Small tweak, otehr wise is good: portions of the original constitution that have changed should be italicized.

We are half a step ahead of you . It's already been done.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Yeah, that didn't show up in the quote....

[Kramerman]

I agree with skywalker. It would be great for history to have a nice, pristine copy of the original code of laws that has all ammendments added at the bottom. Then we can have a more readable version, like spiffor's idea, which I like, noting civman's point of italicizing all changes made to the original text.

The one thing I would like to add is perhaps citizens should take it upon themselves to print out a copy of the original, incase, the Creator forbid, the posted one gets deleted somehow on accident (or maybe the Apolyton server explodes), or more importantly, we find that some corrupt official has been tampering with the original to his own end. It would be easy to spot something like this if alot of people had a 'tamper' proof hard copy. This is just a suggestion though, if my father's printer worked I'd do it now, but I'm gonna have to wait until I go back home....

[kring]

I like Spiffor's tweaks, as well as skywalker's suggestion of the two copies.

[civman2000]

I agree with skywalker's proposal

[GodKing]

Sounds good.

[Spiffor]

Do we have a consensus then ?

Since most people interested in this matter seem to agree with the compromise (and civan + myself's tweaks), should we post a poll ? Given that it is about a practice, and not a law, I think the consensus of this thread is enough, and a poll would be unecessary.

[civman2000]

Hmmm...let's just pose this question: Does anyone not like the compromise?

If no one says yes within 24 hours, we don't need a poll.

[Timeline]

Don't you think this should be presented in the form of an Amendment?

[UnOrthOdOx]

I do, to make it the official way for future presidencies to ammend the constitution. It should reword, or add to the ammendment seciton.

[Timeline]

I am working on it now, I will post it in less than hour (hopefully) and we can start discussions on it here.

V GodKing: Okay

[GodKing]

Just make sure that the old is still kept, and that such is noted. Thanks.

[Timeline]

Here is what our CoL would look like if this structure is accepted........

APOLYTONIA CODE OF LAWS

These are the code of laws that we, the new citizenry of Apolotonia, have decided upon. In it, we have declared that we shall form a government of the people, a Democracy, in which -WE- shall choose who leads us. We shall gather the smartest and most wise people of our tribe together, and they shall erect sacrad polls, and they will do their bidding. Let no other nation, barbarian, or calamity stand in our way, WE ARE CIVERS, AND WE WANT TO PLAY!

ARTICLE I: Government Stucture

Executive Branch

This is the administrative section of our nation. The Executive branch is made up of the President and Vice President. These two are required to abide by the suggestions of the ministers, who represent the will of the people.

President:
The President shall physically play the game after referring to his advisors, and generally checking with the people.

Once the turns are played, the president shall publicly post the save game file for all members of Apolytonia to download.-Amendment II

The President is required to host at least one turnchat a week.

The President must have a 2/3 majority before he can change our Government type or mobilize our economy for war.

The President has control over drafts.

Vice-President:
The right hand of the President; he may assist the president in any way currently needed (holding polls, consulting ministers, distributing the save files, etc). In the event the President is unable to play his turn, the Vice-president shall play the turn instead.

Ministerial Branch

Ministers make up the core of our government. They do the hard labor required to point our country in the right direction. Ministers are experts in the area they oversee, and they have the serious task of informing and advising the people on our situation. They are required to conduct polls in order to interrupt the people’s will. They are then to carry out that will, by giving their direction to the President.

All Ministers are allowed to advise and consult with each other. They are also granted the right to petition for changes or actions from other Ministers that may be critical to the their department. Ultimately, however, it is the Minister in charge of his/her section that has the final say in how things are handled.

Minister of Science:
The Science Advisor is the nation’s greatest mind in the area of technological advancement. It is his/her responsibility to advise the president on which techs the people wish to research.

The Science Minister is acknowledged the right to advise the Foreign Affairs minister on matters of Tech trading.

Minister of the Military:
This officer is the principal military advisor to the President and the people, and prepares military plans and reviews overall military requirements for our nation. He/She also has the responsibility to assess threats to the security of the country and keep everyone up to date on these threats.

The Military Advisor is granted the power to set up the army's strategy. He tells what troops to move where, and which battles to engage.

The Military Advisor is granted the right to take an active part in negotiations of Peace Treaties, Mutual Protection Pacts, or a Right of Passage agreements. (Note: The Foreign Advisor calls the shots, but the Military Advisor must have his voice heard).

Minister of Foreign Affairs:
This minister is the government’s chief advisor on foreign affairs and is responsible for carrying out foreign policy. He/She is given the power to enter into diplomatic negotiations with other countries, however should refrain from making commitments until approved by the people.

The Foreign Advisor is granted the power to make peace, accept Mutual Protection Pacts, offer Right of Passage Agreements, and forge Military Alliances. The exchange of all items, except Strategic, Luxury, or Gold resources falls on the broad shoulders of the Foreign Affairs Minister. It is strongly recommended that the Foreign Affairs Minister consult the appropriate ministers when gifts or exchanges are involved.

This Minister is required to consult the Trade advisor when Gold, Luxury or Strategic resources are involved.

Minister of Trade:
The Minister of Trade is the principle authority on all international trade. He/she handles all trade involving the exchange of luxurious goods and resources, and has control over any times that gold may be involved.

The Trade Advisor is granted the power to make/accept Trade Embargos.

City Planner:
The City Planner is truly an artist and an economist, for he is responsible for making the foundation of our nation, cities, as prosperous and successful as possible. The City Planner manages building queues and citizens, but may also request the Public Works minister to improve city tiles when needed.

The City Planner is strongly recommended to accommodate all Ministers who approach him/her with their various needs.

Minister of Imperial Expansion:
The Imperial Expansion Minister posses the important job of placing our glorious new cities.

Miniser of Public Works:
The Public Works Minister is in charge of all the workers and slaves in our empire.

Minister of Finance:
The Financial Minister has the power to control the budget of our civ. That involves assigning income for science, trade and luxuries.

Public Information Servants

Historian:
The Historian logs everything that happens to our nation, however, he should do so without biased to political leaders or parties. The Historian is not allowed to vote in governmental polls.

The Historian may request detailed information on certain things from the President, and shall be granted access to multiple saves per turn (before and after the save has been played).

Reporters (Newspapers):
These independent agents are bestowed the great privilege of keeping the people informed on the happenings of the game and government, as well as the general environment around us. They should strive to obtain accurate facts, and state things how they are, free of political involvement. The reporters act as a window into the game, serve as a government watchdog, and are general tool of the people.

ARTICLE II: Government Policy

Amendments:
Amendments to this Constitution can be submitted by any member of our nation. An amendment is passed and made official by a 2/3 or greater vote on the amendment's inclusion.

Length of Office Terms:
All office terms shall last one month. A member can run for a different office at the end of his term, but he cannot change offices during it. If a member is elected three times into the same office, that member must run for a different office in his fourth term, or not run at all.

Impeachment and Resignations:
All members of our great nation are recognized the right to bring foreword the issue of impeachment of any government official at any time. Resignations will be handled the same as any impeachments.

A poll will be posted which will expire in no less than 5 days. There are to be three poll options, yea, nay, and abstain. Upon the expiration of the poll, if 2/3 of the people who voted deem impeachment necessary, then the official shall be immediately removed from office. The President shall establish an emergency member to take his/her place until a new election can be held, and a new person voted into office to finish the term.

ARTICLE III: Polling

General Rules:
Polls may be conducted in an ‘unofficial’ format to simply gain information, but CANNOT be used in any official decisions. All of the following rules are regarding ‘official’ polls, which may or may not be used as official results for the actual game. Any unofficial polls must be labeled as so within the first post.

Each official poll should have its rules laid out, as well as a form of expiration, either when a certain event takes place (i.e. ‘when the game starts’), or a time limit (i.e. ‘5 days’). This is to prevent the occurrence of an incident such as if doesn’t include an expiration, and says 3 weeks later "well this poll said this" kind of thing, and use its results officially. Each poll should lay out the potential options, as well as the question in a clear format. The required inclusions for the post are: an expiration date/event, a fair, clear and concise, unbaised question which addressed the issue of the poll, and a general description of what your poll entails. Instead of a description if you wish to post a link to another thread to give a description, that is acceptable as well.

Those who wish to put up a poll are strongly recommended to first discuss the issue in another thread, and bounce around possible options for voting. If someone feels that a poll could have been better made as a 'grouping' poll, or a 'yes/no' poll, then it may be deemed invalid.

Length of a Poll:
Each poll must be open for a minimum of 3 days. This allows enough time for the majority of our members to see the poll and vote in it. Any poll open or taking results in less than 3 days is invalid. This includes 'spur of the moment' polls, that say something like 'This poll ends when turn 5 starts', but turn 5 starts in 2 days instead of 3 - this poll would be invalid.

Fairness and Neutrality:
The first post in a poll thread should be completely neutral. No options are to be suggested for voting, just what each option entails in an unbiased format. The same is true for the voting options. While poking fun at an option will probably be acceptable, if someone thinks that it interferes with a voter’s decision, then they may deem it invalid. If you show bias in your options, then it is no longer fair. So be warned, if your poll is a landslide one way and should win but someone feels that the options you presented are unfair and calls for a validity vote, if it’s deemed invalid your poll is useless.

Poll Format:
Each official poll MUST include either a ‘yes/no’ format, or a ‘group’ format, where similar options are grouped together, where the winning option within the group with the most votes is the official winner. The only time these formats do not have to be followed is in true multiple-choice polls, i.e. ‘Which Civilization should we be: Egyptians, Persians. Etc.’ In these cases, a simple ‘yes/no’ or ‘grouping’ poll does not suffice.

Repolling:
If someone wants to conduct a repoll, then it must be created at least 3 weeks following the initial poll. If a repoll is created before 3 weeks has passed, then that poll is immediately invalid. If a poll is an alternative poll, offering alternatives to decisions made in a previous poll, then it also must be conducted at least 3 weeks following the first poll, or be immediately deemed invalid. Any poll that's general purpose is the same or similar as another poll will be considered a repoll.

Length of Validity:
Poll results are valid until either a repoll is conducted, or an optional expiration on the results of the poll is included (either from an event or a time limit). In any other case, the results of a poll are official until the end of the game.

Invalidity of a Poll:
If these rules are not abided by, anyone may consider the poll invalid. If someone believes a poll to not be following these rules and declares it invalid, then a vote may be conducted among the elected officials listed above to be either ‘valid’ or ‘invalid’. If the poll is deemed invalid, then its results cannot be used for any official purposes regarding the game. A poll deemed invalid cannot be voted on again unless it abides by the rules regarding a repoll.

AMENDMENTS

Amendment I: Minister of the Economy
Date Amended: July 1, 2002
Acting President: Trip
Poll of Inception: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=54106
Document Location: None
Comments: This amendment dissolves the positions of Minister of Trade and Minister of Finance. In their place is the creation of a new office, the Ministry of the Economy.

The functions of the Ministry of Economy will precisely be :
- To adjust the sliders in agreement with the People or the President. These two get actually to decide who should get what budget. The minister of economy should only give documented advice.
- To check if cities produce a good amount of money, and petition the city planner to build marketplaces and banks where it has to be. The minister of economy has no direct power on cities however.
- To check if resources and luxuries are well dispatched in the empire, and to petition the minister of public works if different. The minister of economy has no direct power on workers.
- To establish trades with the AI involving resources, luxuries or gold.
- To haggle gold amounts in a trade decided by the foreign minister. The minister of economy has to agree with trades involving goods among other things (example, he has to agree to a suggested "Fur for IronWorking" trade). The minister of economy has no direct power on trades involving gold among other things, but no trade goods.

Amendment II: Posting the .SAV
Date Amended: July 6, 2002
Acting President: Trip
Poll of Inception: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=54577
Document Location: Article I, “President”
Comments: This amendment allows the President to post save game files publicly.

Previous wording:

Once the turns are played the president shall send out the save game file via e-mail only to all the members of his cabinet and any Apolytonia member who specially request it. The Historian and Reporter must receive saves from the end of each turnchat."

[UnOrthOdOx]

Curious, why didn't you add in the Minister of Economy in the body of the CoL and move the Ministers of Finance and Trade to the bottom? It IS an ammendment, so the rewording can take place without further vote, should this pass, correct?

[Timeline]

No, it should not. It was never stated (in certain terms) in that amendment that it was to delete portions of the CoL.

That's what my MoE amendment is for.

Btw: Not a president nor anyone els should be given authority to alter the CoL unless explicitly stated by a 2/3 majority of the people. Spiffor never mentioned taking out parts of the constitution, I did.

[UnOrthOdOx]

If you want to get all technical, your posting the save ammendment never mentions deleting the original text, either.

If it makes you feel better to vote on rewording when the actual ammendment already passed, go right ahead. The MoE ammendment AS IS states that the previous positions are DISSOLVED, therefore one could take that to mean they should be removed from the CoL. I am just saying if we pass an ammendment that all future ammendments REPLACE and REWORD the CoL, why should we have to vote retroactively on those ammendments that have already passed? Your proposed MoE is only the rewording part, so why not let the rewording ammendment cover that?

[Timeline]

I agree....but some don't.

Don't worry, it will pass anyway.



Here is what I have so far. This is not done and I put it together rather hastily, so I am sure we can improve on it.

"AMENDMENTS

Amendments are intended to alter, modify, add to, or subtract from our Code of Laws. Amendments to this Constitution can be submitted by any member of our nation, and is passed by a 2/3 or greater vote on the amendment’s inclusion.

Any amendment placed into the Code of Laws must be summarized at the bottom of the CoL document in the “Amendments” section. This summery must contain (but is not limited to) the following information:

*Name of Amendment
*Date of inception
*Link to poll of validity
*Document location of amendment

If the amendment replaces or removes any existing text in the Code of Laws, this original text must be preserved in the amendment’s summery."

be back later

[Timeline]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
If you want to get all technical, your posting the save ammendment never mentions deleting the original text, either.

It was a vote to change the wording. That was clear.

as for Mr Spiff's, yea i can see how we would just copy and paste that into the section where FAM/TA was. But, it doesnt exactly fit in well with the rest of the CoL does it?

[UnOrthOdOx]

See, THIS is why I don't run for anything...

You guys are too technical for me. But, I am glad someone is doing it.



Beginning to think that MrWIA is making more and more sense.....

[Spiffor]

Maybe I'm an alien but...
I think our CoL should be a clear, straight to the point document. Its purpose, IMO, is to be useful for people looking for our rules.
That's why I like the compromise : it's satisfying for people like me who want to know all our rules "at one glance", and it's satisfying for people who want to keep an historical record.

BUT, we should avoid to overweight our CoL with too many details, and pseudo rules we don't need to carve in stone. The way institutions work comes as much from documents than practice / tradition (in Britain, there is no constitution, but many customs, and it works). My point is : we don't need to write rules for every single matter. We can decide rules, and let the political tradition root them.
For example, if we all agree on the compromise in this thread (without officially amending the constitution), Ninot will probably structurate the CoL this way, while keeping an old-school copy (like skywalker asked). The next president is likely to continue, and the next too.
If this topic wasn't raised, we'd have continued with the way Trip did, without thinking too much about it (proof is, he agrees with the compromise), because of the power of the tradition.

Our constitution should adress points where explicit and written rules are needed, because a debate can arise, because not everybody agrees, or simply because it matters. For example, our amendment about amendments is good : it adresses the 2 important questions : who can bring an amendment, how many people mst agree with it. Let's face it : knowing how the amendment is written within the constitution is 1000 times less important.

I am not an anticonstitutionalist, far from it. I think our constitution is badly needed, because any game has rules. But I fear people here will overburden the constitution with small details which interest almost nobody. It will eventually kill the clarity of the constitution, and kill the very meaning of the constitution : to have a reference to settle arguments.