Thread Tools
Old July 22, 2002, 08:05   #1
Artifex
Prince
 
Local Time: 04:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Kentucky USA
Posts: 388
Hmm, maybe militaristic stinks after all (post patch)
Or I am very unlucky. Which is it?

/rant on

In my first game as Romans I played up until 1400 fighting many wars on continent. Not ONE leader. On railroad now... still no leader.

2nd game Germans...all the way to middle of medieval no leader..after many wars.

Wow. Maybe Militaristic does stink. I am thinking I won't play them anymore.

SO that's pretty harsh eh?

/rant off
Artifex is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 08:12   #2
Rust
Chieftain
 
Rust's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:45
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Alberta
Posts: 98
actually its also quick to get barracks up and be fight ing with elites in no time so its great for early war expansion. I don't know about leaders though It's maybe not that much better of a chance than normal.
Rust is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 08:15   #3
sabrewolf
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMApolyton UniversityIron CiversCivilization IV CreatorsC3CDG Desolation RowCivilization IV PBEMCivilization IV: Multiplayer
Emperor
 
sabrewolf's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: turicum, helvetistan
Posts: 9,852
for militaristic trait (i saw these stats somewhere)

chance of regular from conscript to regular: 100%
chance of regular from regular to veteran: 50%
chance of regular from veteran to elite: 25%
chance of elite unit creating leader: 12.5%

half for non-militaristic

so in avg. every eighth won battle with elite units should give you a leader... so you must have been quite unlucky... or fought mainly with veteran and regular units?

note: if you had a leader you oversaw by mistake and didn't "use" him (for army or hurrying) no new leader will be created...
__________________
- Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity
- Atheism is a nonprophet organization.
sabrewolf is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 11:30   #4
HazieDaVampire
King
 
HazieDaVampire's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The British Empire
Posts: 1,105
i always have a stack of elites ready to go out fighting to make a leader, or just to make my empire larger! As you do!
HazieDaVampire is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 11:41   #5
DrFell
Civilization II Multiplayer
King
 
Local Time: 05:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,131
Quote:
Originally posted by sabrewolf
for militaristic trait (i saw these stats somewhere)

chance of regular from conscript to regular: 100%
chance of regular from regular to veteran: 50%
chance of regular from veteran to elite: 25%
chance of elite unit creating leader: 12.5%

half for non-militaristic

so in avg. every eighth won battle with elite units should give you a leader... so you must have been quite unlucky... or fought mainly with veteran and regular units?
You're right about everything there but the leader possibility... it's the same for militaristic civs as for standard civs. Only the chance of unit promotion is increased (according to Firaxis). So you're probably just unlucky, even though militaristic civs fight with more elite units they can still get screwed with no leaders.
DrFell is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 13:06   #6
ALPHA WOLF 64
Prince
 
ALPHA WOLF 64's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:45
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Illinois USA
Posts: 303
GL generation is 1 in 16 or 1 in 12 with the Hero Epic, I thought i've seen these numbers a few times.
ALPHA WOLF 64 is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 14:07   #7
Arrian
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Deity
 
Arrian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
Artifex,

You're either unlucky or simply not using enough units. It is important to have lots of units and get lots of them to elite status.

Trust me, "militaristic" doesn't suck. But it took some practice before I learned how to use it properly.

-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
Arrian is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 14:12   #8
Inverse Icarus
Emperor
 
Inverse Icarus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:45
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: flying too low to the ground
Posts: 4,625
Getting a leader can be a simple process if you do it right. Get at least 1 elite and send him out with other units. make sure the you have a reasonable chance to win the attack (dont go out with jaguar warriors and find some hoplites) and take it. if you think you're going to lose, use another unit to weaken them and then die. then send in the elite.

if you have barracks, you'll have a HOARDE of elite units fairly soon (if you fight a war like me i suppose), ready for making leaders left and right.

I usually play as the Aztecs when i want a lot of war, and i usually see 2-3 leaders before the ancient era ends.
__________________
"I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
- Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card
Inverse Icarus is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 16:11   #9
planetfall
Prince
 
planetfall's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:45
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Incoming from CO
Posts: 975
Leader generation may be slightly smaller post patch, but still can be done. Key is to switch from attacking with elites first. Use regular or veterans to soften defender and then use elite. You are playing a numbers game and need to increase the number of elite victories. Other victories don't count. The other technique that works is to start with veterans by building barracks so it is easier to jump to elite. If start with regular, the unit has to make two jumps and that is not easy.

You only need to generate 1-3 leaders.

#1-- to build army
1.1 Use army to win one battle, make it an easy one.
1.2 Use win to build heroic epic
1.3 Use win to build military academy

#2..3-- for key techs.

If you get more than 3 leaders, you have a bonus game. Remember you can only have one leader active in the game at a time.

good luck, let us know how it goes.

--PF
planetfall is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 19:41   #10
Thrawn05
King
 
Local Time: 23:45
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Constantly giggling as I type my posts.
Posts: 1,735
The only time I was able to get a leader, was from a goody hut in the first iratation of the 1.17f patch. I always play as Rome and never get a single one. I wipped out entire civs and not one damn leader.


So what I do to fix this? I made a mod were goody huts can produce any unit except flying, sea, and UU.
__________________
I drink to one other, and may that other be he, to drink to another, and may that other be me!
Thrawn05 is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 19:47   #11
alva
Civilization III PBEMPtWDG2 Cake or Death?PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
alva's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Republic of Flanders
Posts: 10,747
I had about 10 in my last game (1.21), but I was
at war for many, many years
__________________
#There’s a city in my mind
Come along and take that ride
And it’s all right, baby, it’s all right #
alva is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 20:03   #12
N. Machiavelli
Prince
 
N. Machiavelli's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: THE Prince
Posts: 359
My record is 14 in one game. Then again, I've had entire games wherein I don't produce a single one. It's all odds. Sometimes your lucky, sometimes not.
N. Machiavelli is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 20:17   #13
Venger
King
 
Venger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:45
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Keeper of the Can-O'Whoopass
Posts: 1,104
Dude, I'm getting a leader EVERY TURN now. And I'd get more, except I can't use them fast enough! About every 10 or so combats, I pick up a leader. And I'm doing between 10 and 20 per turn.

I cannot imagine not getting them, they are almost a hassle now, except they also give the kickass renaming feature...

I wish I had them earlier in the game of course...

I also play as Rome. Dude it's RAINING MEN! Hallelujah!

Venger
P.S. Bonus points for song knowledge as always...
Venger is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 20:48   #14
Theseus
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton UniversityApolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-LeagueC4DG Gathering StormApolyCon 06 Participants
Emperor
 
Theseus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm!
Posts: 8,907
Venger, I worry about you... you can;t find better songs to quote?

How are you getting so many GLs? Are you fighting the mother of all wars (with MA against Pikes)?
__________________
The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
Theseus is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 21:02   #15
Spiffor
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG LegolandApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
Spiffor's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
I'm unlucky with leaders. I had 3 in my whole Civ3 experience. And even if I'm a builder, I have at least a major war per game, with all my troops being veteran.
Because of this, I consider leaders as a bonus for the AI, not for me
__________________
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Spiffor is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 21:21   #16
Blake
lifer
PolyCast TeamCivilization IV: MultiplayerC4DG Gathering StormCivilization IV CreatorsApolyton UniversityApolytoners Hall of Fame
Beyond the Sword AI Programmer
 
Blake's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: I am a Buddhist
Posts: 5,680
I find that the best leader generation times are in the early game and in the lateish game, when the AI attacks with a super-stack of infantry against your own super-stacked city.

Because elite upgrade is guaranteed the second time a veteran wins in a single turn, you get a lot of elites. Because infantry have such low attacks your elites then win a lot of battles. An AI super-stack attack seems to pratically guarantee a GL (altough you have to beat off the stack to get to keep the GL....)

So, iow, just because you failed to get a GL early in the game, don't lose heart, because industrial age pratically guarantees one if you can arrange for the AI to attack a city with an infantry superstack . Here it helps to have founded a single city on the AI landmass eons ago, because it's guaranteed to be attacked and can therefore be armed to the teeth without fear of the AI dodging it for an easier target.
Blake is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 21:31   #17
Venger
King
 
Venger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:45
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Keeper of the Can-O'Whoopass
Posts: 1,104
Quote:
Originally posted by Theseus
Venger, I worry about you... you can;t find better songs to quote?

How are you getting so many GLs? Are you fighting the mother of all wars (with MA against Pikes)?
Once I hit the modern age and get tanks (I have 4 tank units - tank, improved tank, main battle tank, and modern armor), I get alot of elites, as well as when I get mobile infantry and mechanized infantry, lots of elites. I'm conquering the planet, so... lot's of battles. Again, at least 10-20 on every one of MY turns, more during the AI turns as well. So alot of elites plus alot of battles means one GL per turn. It's kinda cool. Actually, I like renaming the units almost more than the GL action (since wonders are pretty much over and done with).

Venger
Venger is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 22:31   #18
Artifex
Prince
 
Local Time: 04:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Kentucky USA
Posts: 388
The game is won or lost by modern age so leaders are kinda irrelevent then. I think they would be best on ancient and middle ages.
Artifex is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 22:52   #19
Jaybe
Mac
Emperor
 
Jaybe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:45
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Henderson, NV USA
Posts: 4,168
EXCUUUSE MEEE!
Venger, how's the flippin going as you are CONQUERING THE PLANET! If you are taking cities so quickly, you are probably not having much problem with enemy borders on cities you have taken only a turn or two ago!
__________________
JB
I play BtS (3.19) -- Noble or Prince, Rome, marathon speed, huge hemispheres (2 of them), aggressive AI, no tech brokering. I enjoy the Hephmod Beyond mod. For all non-civ computer uses, including internet, I use a Mac.
Jaybe is offline  
Old July 23, 2002, 09:57   #20
Arrian
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Deity
 
Arrian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
I agree, Artifex. A leader generated in 1500bc is almost infinitely more powerful than a leader generated in the modern age.

My record is 12 leaders in one game (standard map). All pre-Tanks (the only use I had for the Tanks I built was killing barbarian warriors... heh).

-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
Arrian is offline  
Old July 23, 2002, 13:02   #21
Lord Merciless
Warlord
 
Lord Merciless's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:45
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 249
My record was 10. In that game I accidentally achieved Domination victory. I didn't even research the Motorized Transportation.

My experience is that Great Leaders are essential in turning the game into your favor.
Lord Merciless is offline  
Old July 24, 2002, 02:57   #22
Barchan
Warlord
 
Barchan's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: drifting across the sands of time....
Posts: 242
Quote:
Originally posted by planetfall
Leader generation may be slightly smaller post patch, but still can be done.
Slightly smaller, indeed. My last pre-patch game I played the Germans and had so many GLs (particularly after Panzers...) I was eventually using 'em to rush cathedrals and whatnot.

However, post-patch I'm playing the Zulus (for a change) and not one GL yet, and I've nearly eliminated all the AI cities. I've been very conscious about using elites to kill the final defender to take cities and all the little tricks for generating GLs and I've gotten nothing for it.

True, it could be nothing more than a string of hard luck, but it'd be interesting to monitor just to see if it's something more....
Barchan is offline  
Old July 24, 2002, 04:37   #23
PeteBDawg
Settler
 
PeteBDawg's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:45
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Riding the Boxcars from Town to Town
Posts: 5
For the record, you never get GLs from barbarians, right?

I rarely get them. I tend to build up my armies too much before I attack, and, since I save my elites for last, they rarely get used. This leads to erratic and difficult to control expansion into enemy territory. I need to learn to coordinate my wars with my production better. I suppose experience will do that.
PeteBDawg is offline  
Old July 24, 2002, 06:41   #24
Barchan
Warlord
 
Barchan's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: drifting across the sands of time....
Posts: 242
Quote:
Originally posted by PeteBDawg
For the record, you never get GLs from barbarians, right?
Right.
Barchan is offline  
Old July 24, 2002, 13:32   #25
Vinicio
Settler
 
Local Time: 23:45
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally posted by Barchan

True, it could be nothing more than a string of hard luck, but it'd be interesting to monitor just to see if it's something more....
Well, I've noticed that my elites normally lose a couple of hp (2 or 3) during the battle at which they produce a GL. Sometimes, I'm going NOOO because I think it's going to die, and then POOF!, all of a sudden out comes a GL.

That maybe something...
Vinicio is offline  
Old July 24, 2002, 13:42   #26
Artifex
Prince
 
Local Time: 04:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Kentucky USA
Posts: 388
Yes I think your on to something. I notice that I never get great leaders in easy battles. Like a swordsman attacking a warrior out in the open. Then I notice if that same swordman loses 3 hp attacking a fortified phalanx in a city then poof out comes the GL..
Artifex is offline  
Old July 24, 2002, 14:06   #27
Arrian
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Deity
 
Arrian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
Barchan,

I played a game as China last night and got 4 leaders (Pyramids, Great Library, FP, Hanging Gardens) in the ancient age (1.29)... though the game actually isn't going all that well. The problem is that India is a freakin' MONSTER. The tweak to commercial clearly helped. If and when I finish that game off (it was just a test), I will waste 'em with Riders.

Anyway, my point is that I don't think any changes were made to leader generation.

-Arrian

p.s. I love naming my elite* units
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
Arrian is offline  
Old July 24, 2002, 15:26   #28
dunk
Prince
 
dunk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 978
So far my record is two. It's in the game I'm currently playing as the Chinese (Militaristic and Industrious). I'm about 2/3 of the way through the Middle Ages. I never played too far into a game as a militaristic civ. I love the trait now. I have a great appreciation for Scientific, Militaristic, Industrious, and Religious. Commercial might be my next experiment. Expansionist is ok at best, I never seem to find very many goody huts. Are goody huts dependant on barbarian activity level or is that just barbarian camps?
dunk is offline  
Old July 24, 2002, 17:31   #29
Arrian
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Deity
 
Arrian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
Dunk,

You need lots of open space for expasionist to shine. Either use really big maps or normal maps with less than max civs if you want to test out the trait.

-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
Arrian is offline  
Old July 24, 2002, 17:51   #30
The_Hawk
Chieftain
 
The_Hawk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:45
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 53
Artifex,

I am having the same experience during my experiment with Romans. I built a ton of veteran Legionaries (I always build barracks with militaristic civs since its so cheap) and whipped the French and Iriqois down to having one city left. I built AoW with my first and ONLY leader. I expected to get more GLs since I was playing a militaristic Civ and to no avail. I'm behind in the tech race (playing on Regent) and needed GLs to catch up on the GW races.

Frustration sets in as I ponder my bleak fate....

I need a GL NOW!! I am making a play to own my continent, which is the largest one and only have to rid myself of the English to do it. I have an exclusive fleet of elite Legionaries (from earlier conquests) and Cavalry (from my current exploits against English and their MPP Chinese friends). Since Rome is not industrious, i'm behind on infrastructure, and City Improvement infrastructure as well, since their so expensive. I'm attacking only with Elite units and winning everytime.... no GL. Only when I attack a pop-rushed riflemen will I send a veteran unit. They get promoted to Elite on the first or second attack, but no GL. What could I be doing wrong?

If I don't get some of these key GWs my late game will be interesting. As it is, i've had to buy most of my techs and now Civs are asking for my left nut just to keep up.

The Hawk scratches head and seriously considers bailing on his militaristic experiment and returning to the peaceful comfort of building and cultural dominance w/ Babs or Egypt...
The_Hawk is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 00:45.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team