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Old July 24, 2002, 21:32   #1
Blake
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FIRAXIS: Please instill the AI with a sense of pity.
In SMACX, your AI pact mates would sometimes give you tech gifts, if you were weak and had a good reputation, and they were several techs ahead. Basically they pitied you, and gave you tech out of the goodness of their hearts.

They were however, fairly sensible about it. They wouldn't give you pity techs if:
They have recentely given you a gift (around 4 turns)
The tech has a un-built secret Project (wonder) associated with it.
You can be reasonably expected to pay for the tech (this shouldn't be mistaken with being able to pay for the tech by selling your right arm, left kidney and grandmother).

So they'll even give a gift if you CAN afford to pay, but are also very weak, so if the going price is 100 credits for the tech, and you have 200 credits, but are much weaker, they'll give you the tech and ask for nothing in return. IOW they are honorable enough not to take what meger possessions you do have.

You also can't *choose* what tech to recieve.

In Civ3 a game can get really hopeless. It'd be less hopeless if the AI had some human qualities such as pity and mercy.

The basic rules for choosing whether a pity gift is in order, for Civ3 would go somehing like this:
The AI must be several techs ahead of the player (more than two).
The player must be much weaker than the AI.
The player must be on good terms with the AI (never fought with the AI). The player must also not be snuggling up to the AI's enemies.
The player must have a good reputation.
The player must not have recentely received a gift (from that AI).
Agression should also play a part (less agressive AI's should be more keen to give pity gifts)
The AI should gift a tech with comparitvely little trade value.

Also, the AI should only give a gift when the Human makes an effort to trade ie there shouldn't be a option for "request gift" instead the AI will spontaneously offer the gift.


I'm pretty sure this wouldn't break the game, because The Rules would prevent a player from ever surpassing an AI on the basis of it's gifts, it would only serve to make a hopeless situation less hopeless. It would also infuse the AI with a much needed glimmer of humanity (and in that regard, the SMAC AI leaders are lightyears ahead of the Civ3 AI.)
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Old July 24, 2002, 22:17   #2
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You raise a good point. But it looks like for Civ3 the developers wanted to make the game as difficult as possible, apealing to hard core gamers who blew away SMAC/X at Transcend. I too think it would be nice for the AI to show pity. Perhaps this could be included in a more diverse agressiveness slider in the editor where the least agressive civs would give pity to the pityful.

However, the realism watchdogs may not like this. Until very recently I don't think there are many examples of nations showing pity on one another. Did the European colonizers show pity on Native Americans? ...not that pity was necessarily warranted. No, they used their technology to grind the Native Americans into the dirt.

Overall, I like your idea and think Civ would be more civilized with your suggestion. But Firaxis based the game on a might makes right paradigm. States truly have no friends in Civ, only intrests.
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Old July 25, 2002, 02:00   #3
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Nations show each other pity only when it is to their advantage. When conflicts arise, that all goes in the crapper.

The English and French helped Native American tribes, as did the Colonies, when it suited them, against the Spanish, against each other. When the United States was formed, and the colonial powers faded from America, the reason to show pity was gone, and the natives were crushed.

So goes the world.

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Old July 25, 2002, 02:42   #4
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In Civ3, you can launch an assault on AI civ, and after taking a few cities from them, you can literally blackmail them giving up all their tech advantages. If you do this often, you inadverdently end up on the top.

Playing the psychotic bastard is the way to go in Civ3.
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Old July 25, 2002, 03:15   #5
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Oh I know you can extract tech from AI's with force and arm-twisting. I just think there should be a way without having to beat up your neighbours. Gifting would also provide a suvival mechanism for stronger peacenik civs. Provide avenues of play other than taking tech with force.

The motivation (advantage, if you please) is generally that the gift-reciever will feel indebted, thereby making them a sturdy ally when they are bought up to speed. I do this sorta thing all the time, I admit it doesn't always work (especially with AI's) but that's a risk and one I'm willing to take. It can also provide appeasement to prevent the weaker civ from becoming desperate and resorting to (what should be) desperate means.

Question: You are an underdog, there are two other civs. One laughs at your plight, the other gives you gifts of tech to help you in your time of need. Eons later you have caught up with the two civs, which civ will you favor trade with, and which will you eradicate?

Quote:
Playing the psychotic bastard is the way to go in Civ3.
This is also a peev of mine. Your pretty much expected to be a psychotic bastard. And the AI's are like fully automated mechanised psychotic bastards. It's not like making (some of) the AI's a little more 'nicer' would reduce the fun of the bastards (whom get to gleefully cackle about the gullibility of the gift giving civ). But it would make it more enjoyable for the more peaceful players.

A real life examples is USA and USSR arming weaker nations, in exchange for loyalty. And thats really how it works, you give a gift now, and the payment is in the form of future loyalty.
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Old July 25, 2002, 03:20   #6
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Civ3's biggest flaw is that it penalizes you for playing peacefully and nicely.
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Old July 25, 2002, 03:53   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Civ3's biggest flaw is that it penalizes you for playing peacefully and nicely.
I agree. Because I play a complete builder style, and it's impossible to play on higher levels because the AI is so aggresive. I would love it if they programmmed the Ai to be "kinder".

Thats why I love this idea
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Old July 25, 2002, 06:08   #8
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The idea is really good, and yes, it is hard to play peaceful, but all in all, the AI can't have mercy, as it's not human .
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Old July 25, 2002, 06:27   #9
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Would the human player simply have 'pity' on one of the AI players just because? Of course not. Firaxis knows this, and they didn't want to give the AI a disadvantage since it would be offering gifts with no strings attached, while the miserly human player would be cackling all the way to the real estate bank.
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Old July 25, 2002, 06:38   #10
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What Trip says, though sometimes I do have pity for no reason .
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Old July 25, 2002, 06:49   #11
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I'm happy enough with research and prices being cheaper once other civs have already acquired the knowledge.

That said, I've been able to buy Music Theory for only $10.
Of course, that was after JS Bach's Cathedral had been built.

What I would like though is a civ's attitude towards you having SOME influence on trade rates. But: it would have to be vice versa, so that your friends expect better deals from you, too (or they will stop being your friend).
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Old July 25, 2002, 06:56   #12
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It is a personal thing-I once found myself surrounding a underdog civs last city with soldiers to protect it, no reason of course. The odd thing was I had signed a ROP with it and it never was needed to be renewed/canacelled.

Anyway, we all want a more 'human' AI-for pity and it'd be nice if they acknowledged for once they were dead meat once you got them cornered. They never drop the pride
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Old July 25, 2002, 07:16   #13
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Is there any way to make the computer player more pacifist? You used to be able to do that in Alpha Centauri (I set all the factions to -1 aggression to create favorable worlds for builders like me).
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Old July 25, 2002, 07:44   #14
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Well, this is definitely a good point. Although I would not call it "instilling the AI with a sense of pity", but "making the AI even more cunning".

Here is what I have in my mind: I, too, give techs away for free to hopelessly small AI civs. Somtimes just because I feel sorry for them, but mostly because by helping them, I am making the life of my serious opponents more difficult.

If there is a small civ or two stuck on a continent with one larg(er) one, I will often even give techs away simply to make the small ones stronger and more difficult to destroy for the large one. I may need allies one day...

I would probably be a bit offended if Cleo come to me and offer Free Artistry just because she'd consider me hopelessly behind... So, what I suggest is making the AI understand the concept of "helping the enemies of my enemy". While instilling the sense of pity might be difficult, instilling this concept might be easier.
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Old July 25, 2002, 07:46   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Civ3's biggest flaw is that it penalizes you for playing peacefully and nicely.
True, but the fact that the AI was never agressive in CTP2 and that you were encouraged to play peacefully and nicely was one of the most complained about things with the game I thought. Then it was considered a dumb, not unagressive AI, and playing peacefully was somewhat boring.
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Old July 25, 2002, 09:07   #16
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The CTP2 AI was horrible. A much better comparison is the SMAC AI, which is capable of playing both ways very well. (Even if it's tatics kinda suck and it needs 'help' to build properly... but the principles are good)

Btw, the AI on diety shouldn't give gifts at all, with the emporer AI only doing so rarely. That'd content those who want a real challenge. (And remembering the gifting only helps you come from behind, an AI would never give you a gift if your actual at a reasonable power level)
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Old July 25, 2002, 09:16   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. President
Is there any way to make the computer player more pacifist? You used to be able to do that in Alpha Centauri (I set all the factions to -1 aggression to create favorable worlds for builders like me).
Yes. Go into the Civilizations area in the editor and you will see a slider that adjusts the aggression level of each civ.
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Old July 25, 2002, 09:22   #18
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I sometimes give techs away.

The problem is that almost every civ is "Annoyed" with you right from the outset. I've rarely had a first encounter with a polite or even cautious AI. So, they'll never give you squat.
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Old July 25, 2002, 09:37   #19
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Well, that really doesn't matter. Even gracious allies will attack you as soon as they feel the desire to expand into your territory, and annoyed rivals still deal with you and may be peaceful for the entire game.
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Old July 25, 2002, 10:29   #20
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I think it's possible to edit the game such that the AI has a more "peaceful builder" approach to things. First is the agressiveness rating. Second, somewhere (not sure where exactly, as I'm just exploring the editor) I hear there is a "build preferences" thingy that you can use to tell the AI to build certain things. Tell them to build all city improvements. That should result in less AI units, but better development. Also, you can put the AI to AI trading factor to 100. Right now, I think it's more on any level other than chieftain. This way the trade deals will be the same for everyone.

Finally, you can set the AI's "level." Chieftain - Diety. This only effects happiness and barbarian bonus factors. It defaults to Regent. If you wish to play on Monarch, you can bump the AI up to Monarch so it has the same happiness issues you do, but still gets it's 10% production/research bonuses.

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Old July 25, 2002, 12:48   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
First is the agressiveness rating. Second, somewhere (not sure where exactly, as I'm just exploring the editor) I hear there is a "build preferences" thingy that you can use to tell the AI to build certain things.
You'll find both on the "Civilizations" screen, along with all kinds of other things. Another thing you can do is set the preferred government for all civs to Democracy. They'll eventually settle into that form, and the war weariness will force them into a more peaceful mode.
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Old July 25, 2002, 19:24   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by opaque

True, but the fact that the AI was never agressive in CTP2 and that you were encouraged to play peacefully and nicely was one of the most complained about things with the game I thought. Then it was considered a dumb, not unagressive AI, and playing peacefully was somewhat boring.
This is not what I mean. I mean that the game scoring system only looks at your population number, your territory size, and the date of your victory. It doesn't take consideration of the techs you researched, improvements you built, cultures you generated, and Wonders you created. These are own things that builders achieve, but warmongers get high population numbers and huge territories quite easily.

To get good scores, you have to be a warmonger.
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Old July 25, 2002, 19:27   #23
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I find the AI giving me free techs every now and then, not often enough to help me get up in the high tech ranks, but enough not to be out of the game.

I wouldn't mind an extra boost in this.
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Old July 26, 2002, 11:46   #24
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How about attaching a slider for this tech-giving. On chieftain, it would happen more often; on deity, it would not happen at all.

Or it could give you the tech for pikes when it has tanks...and teach the AI sarcasm as well
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Old July 26, 2002, 14:03   #25
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To me, AI gifts are perfectly reasonable, just like human gifts are reasonable in Civ3 (key to diplo victory).
Geostrategically, gifts are extremely useful to let a stamp state survive between two powers, and I often give loads of money and worker's help to the one between my peaceful Civ and a major threat (Chinese or Germans).
I'd be glad if the AI could also do such a thing. But I don't hold my breath : making the AI give gifts and bother about Balance of Power would mean very important changes in the code, and Soren now works mostly on other projects.

(however, I'm against the AI being "humanitarian" : in Civ3, all Civs strive for their power above all)
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Old July 26, 2002, 14:14   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn05
I find the AI giving me free techs every now and then, not often enough to help me get up in the high tech ranks, but enough not to be out of the game.

I wouldn't mind an extra boost in this.
Well the AI has never given me a tech free. Sure, I can buy music theory for 10 gold after Bach's is built (which I usually do just to make them happy) but free, no. Did you have a hugely superior army when this happened?
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Old July 26, 2002, 15:32   #27
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I agree that structuring the AI in this way would make the game feel more....alive to me. Immersive. And that would be a very good thing.

It'd also be nice if things worked this way in reverse. I have been locked in a war with a rival civ that, even when threatened with utter extinction (they've got one city left, I have sixteen bada$$ units parked right outside the gates...no hope of survival), and they STILL wouldn't part with any of their techs.

Stubborn is one thing, but c'mon!! So...I killed them anyway.

The way the game is structured at present, there's no good incentive to leave any civ alive in the long term. I can't form protectorate states (similar to "pact brothers/sisters or vassals in smac), so I can't count on a little civ's loyalty. I might keep them alive but hobbled, and squeeze them for money by selling outdated resources to them, but that's hardly the same thing as forging a real, meaningful, lasting partnership with a neighboring Civ. There's just no incentive to do that in the game, and that's too bad, because the game would be stronger if that were the case. I think that the mechanism Blake proposes would be a step in the right direction.

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Old July 27, 2002, 09:39   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blake
Oh I know you can extract tech from AI's with force and arm-twisting. I just think there should be a way without having to beat up your neighbours.
But there is a way, and it's fun.
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Old July 27, 2002, 10:04   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Playing the psychotic bastard is the way to go in Civ3.
One way to go, but not the only one. However, it's the way taken by seemingly 95% of players, and I'm amazed at how little motivation there is around for tackling the challenge of beating Civ peacefully. (There's a whole other game in there waiting for people to discover it.) It's a piece of p*ss on Regent and quite achievable on Monarch. Even possible on Emperor by experienced and wily old peaceniks.

However, I agree with this thread that it would be great if the AI tried to make more friends and less enemies.

I also agree that there are many aspects of the game that do favour warmongery - from the GL concept to that infuriating and disgusting cheat of settling undiscovered resource spots. Pleeeeease Firaxis, stop that horrible cheat. Warmongers love it, it tells them which enemy cities to take, and builders get penalised by having to build AMCAP (as many cities as possible) hoping to net the resources when they emerge.

[edit: what I mean by 'penalised' is that the AI doesn't have to do this. On a four-city Island it only has to put down one city to bag the future-resource, the human builder has to plant four cities, and the warmonger none]
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Old July 27, 2002, 16:00   #30
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Quote:
The way the game is structured at present, there's no good incentive to leave any civ alive in the long term. I can't form protectorate states (similar to "pact brothers/sisters or vassals in smac), so I can't count on a little civ's loyalty. I might keep them alive but hobbled, and squeeze them for money by selling outdated resources to them, but that's hardly the same thing as forging a real, meaningful, lasting partnership with a neighboring Civ. There's just no incentive to do that in the game, and that's too bad, because the game would be stronger if that were the case. I think that the mechanism Blake proposes would be a step in the right direction.

-=Vel=-
That's one of my biggest problems in terms of diplomacy. I would love to form brotherhoods or some for of bond with the AI, not just some mutual protection pact. But even when I haven't done anything wrong and they are gracious with me, they can attack me on the next turn some times. It gives me no incentive to be nice to them. (especially cuz you can give them a lot of free stuff before going for the UN vote if you want to win through diplomacy). And sometimes they attack me when I'm much stronger.

Even if I was equally advanced on techs, if the AI was "possible" of being friends with, I might give them a free tech. In theory, they "could" give me one later and we could help each other surpass other civs. You'd still have the prisoner's dilemma, since if you initiated the kindness, you wouldn't know if the AI would return it, but the possibility doesn't even exist as of now. I guess they sort of do that with each other. But they should be able to form that with me. Would lowering the AI-Ai trade rate to lower than 100 do that? Would that make it too easy?
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