When the Soviet Union comes back.

[JohnT]

Fez, the problem is your arguing style. Abrasive, rude, condescending, and, at times, willfully ignorant. You accuse me of spitting in your face... well, that is exactly what your debating style does to your arguments.... you might as well just call everybody who disagrees with you an ******* as to save the time and effort of dissuading them from your position.

[Bereta_Eder]

The thread title reminds me of the song: When the Saints go Marching In

[Ecthy]

quit whining, yid

[chequita guevara]

Hi, JohnT!

Did I tell you guys what a great guy he is? Well he is.

[Ecthy]

Chris is quite similar to that, BTW.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by JohnT
Fez, the problem is your arguing style. Abrasive, rude, condescending, and, at times, willfully ignorant. You accuse me of spitting in your face... well, that is exactly what your debating style does to your arguments.... you might as well just call everybody who disagrees with you an ******* as to save the time and effort of dissuading them from your position.

My arguments may be condescending but they certainly are not abrasive, rude or ignorant. My debating style does nothing to affect teh quality of my arguments.

Quite whining about something that obviously isn't a fact.

[JohnT]

And the real irritating thing is that ideologically, we sit on the same side of the fence (well, I'm a little closer to it than he is, but still...)

Thanks Chegitz!!!

[Ming]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
Chris is quite similar to that, BTW.

And you felt it was important to bring him up WHY?

You either stop your crap against Chris, or you are toast for awhile. He's not even in this discussion, yet you feel it is necessary to attempt to insult him again.

No more warnings. Next time you insult Chris, you are toast. And if you don't PM me saying you understand, I will suspend you until you do.

Enough of your crap

[Zoid]

Originally posted by LaRusso


You need one more zero there. I am sure it was closer to 200 million

Excuse me?? If he sent that many people to Gulag, there´d be noone left...

[chequita guevara]

I think he was being sarcastic.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
KX - that strongly reminds me of Siro's debating style even when he's not with his back against the wall

As well as some other anti-Israeli posters Dalgetti mentioned. And why did you feel a need to drag Siro into this as well? He´s not even in the debate AFAIK...

[Zoid]

Che, are you sure? It´s not the first time I´ve heard it...

[Ecthy]

When did Dalgetti ever mention anti-Israeli posters?

And I just brought him up as an example, because some people *cough* appear to be quite blind on one eye

The matter has been closed by higher authority anyway, but it's always a good move to stand by the big one's knees and shout along

[Dan Severn]

Originally posted by LaRusso


interesting point. russia will always be worse than its western counterparts. we can disagree about tens of millions, but the perspective is there...they are just as bad by today's standards today as they were by past standards in 1930's

ens of millions of political dissidentswere killed by Stalin's purges, whether you are prepared to believe it or not.

But I think you get the gist of what I'm saying. Russia has always been a relatively poor land, and poverty invites oppression.

Fez, capitalism is not god. Free market does not necessarily entail huge corporations. My beef with socialism is that it indebts people to the government. A powerful government inhibits freedom. The question one should ask is, what justification does any government have? It is only the pleasure of the people. Furtheremore, one person may not control another. Why should millions of people do the same to the general population?

[chequita guevara]

It's the first time I've heard it. There's no way that 200 million Soviets could have been sent to the gulags. There weren't 200 million Soviets to send. Anyway, the rolleyes seems to indicate he was being dismissive of Fex (which is so hard, I know ).

Oh, so facts now. There were never more than about five million people in the gulags at any given time, mostly during and immediately after WWII. Most people were there for ordinary crimes, such as theft, assault, murder, etc. Most people served their sentence and then were released. Bascially, the gulags were the Soviet prisons. Kinda like if all Federal prisons were in Alaska. . . . Hmmmmmm.

[Giancarlo]

Fez, capitalism is not god. Free market does not necessarily entail huge corporations.

Free Market has its problems I admit and will continue to admit. Those problems are overcome by the positives.

The question one should ask is, what justification does any government have? It is only the pleasure of the people. Furtheremore, one person may not control another. Why should millions of people do the same to the general population?

If one group of people are not to fit to govern, then who gives one person the right to govern others? Basically paraphrasing Ronald Reagan in his first inaugural address.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Dan Severn
ens of millions of political dissidentswere killed by Stalin's purges, whether you are prepared to believe it or not.

There weren't tens of millions of political dissidents (speaking as a representitive of the political tendency that was most persecuted in the USSR, Trotskyism). The number of political murders was a little under one million (800,000 - 900,000). Most of the people who died in the USSR were killed during the famine caused by the collectivisation of agriculture. I've seen figures between three and thirteen million dead for that.

In addition, a few million gulag prisoners likely starved during the war, since supplies were needed elsewhere. You have a choice, send food to your soldiers and factory workers or to convicts (the vast majority of whom were sent away for non-political crimes). It's not a really hard choice when you are on the brink of annihilation.

[moomin]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
There weren't tens of millions of political dissidents (speaking as a representitive of the political tendency that was most persecuted in the USSR, Trotskyism). The number of political murders was a little under one million (800,000 - 900,000). Most of the people who died in the USSR were killed during the famine caused by the collectivisation of agriculture. I've seen figures between three and thirteen million dead for that.

In addition, a few million gulag prisoners likely starved during the war, since supplies were needed elsewhere. You have a choice, send food to your soldiers and factory workers or to convicts (the vast majority of whom were sent away for non-political crimes). It's not a really hard choice when you are on the brink of annihilation.

Have you no shame?

Or is this disgusting argument - revisionism - intended to illustrate yet another similarity between right and left socialists (nazi and commies)?

For your information, here are the conservative estimates of Soviet victims of communist murders:

*** Soviet democide from 1917-1991

Total: 61,911,000
Terror: 8,298,000
Deportations: 4,349,000+
Concentration Camps: 39,464,000
Forced Famine 7,833,000

*** Period Years Total killed

Civil War From 1917 3,284,000
Terror: 750,000
Concentration Camps: 34,000
Forced Famine : 2,500,000

NEP 1923 2,200,000
Collectivization 1929 11,440,000
Terror: 1,733,000
Deportations: 1,400,000
Concentration Camps: 3,306,000
Forced Famine : 5,000,000

Great Terror 1936 4,345,000
Terror: 1,000,000
Deportations: 65,000
Concentration Camps: 3,280,000

Pre-WWII 1939 5,104,000
Terror: 1,932,000
Deportations: 283,000
Concentration Camps: 2,889,000

World War II 1941 13,053,000
Terror: 1,257,000
Deportations: 1,036,000
Concentration Camps: 10,761,000

Post-War 1946 15,613,000
Terror: 1,376,000
Deportations: 1,557,000
Concentration Camps: 12,348,000

Post-Stalin 1954 6,872,000
Terror: 250,000
Deportations: 8,000
Concentration Camps: 6,613,000

Figures from Rummel's _Death by Government_. Remember thes are conservative estimates.

Downplaying all these murders that your commie idols commited just to make communism look good is so far beyond decency I lack words to properly express my disgust and loathing.

[chequita guevara]

Since he consistently over inflates death by the left and continuously underestimates death by the Western democracies, I think its safe to say his stats are unreliable. Even the notoriously bad Black Book of Communism doesn't say that 61 million Soviets died by their government's own hands. If they had, the Soviets would have collapsed a long, long time ago, having killed off a third of their population.

You'll just believe anything a right winger tells you, won't you?

[chequita guevara]

And, oh yeah, go **** yourself.

[Giancarlo]

I am shocked that communists have managed to execute so many people. I greatly underestimated the number I thought previously.... and anybody who defends the USSR needs some serious medical help!

[Saras]

When the Soviet Union comes back, I join the resistance and kill as many commies before they kill me.

[Verto]

May I ask how many of Soviet/Communist supporters are also against America?

Because I can see why...wait, no, I can't. Those who want to talk about how great the Soviet system was...well, maybe they were dropped on their heads as a baby.

[Ecthy]

very constructive

[Stefu]

You have a choice, send food to your soldiers and factory workers or to convicts (the vast majority of whom were sent away for non-political crimes). It's not a really hard choice when you are on the brink of annihilation.

Say, Cheggers, doesn't this excuse the Red deaths in camps in aftermath of Finnish civil war? I mean, choice between feeding the people loyal to the government or people engaging in armed rebellion against that government...

[Saras]

che, you really are a monster after all. All this bull about "communism is about love" is, in fact, bull.

:vomit:

[monkspider]

We are not against America Verto, we are against godless capitalism.

[Az]

60 million people? yes, sure.

anyway, since people continue to present Stalin as an example of communism , I am forced to igore this thread.

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan Severn ens of millions of political dissidentswere killed by Stalin's purges, whether you are prepared to believe it or not.

There weren't tens of millions of political dissidents (speaking as a representitive of the political tendency that was most persecuted in the USSR, Trotskyism). The number of political murders was a little under one million (800,000 - 900,000). Most of the people who died in the USSR were killed during the famine caused by the collectivisation of agriculture. I've seen figures between three and thirteen million dead for that.

In addition, a few million gulag prisoners likely starved during the war, since supplies were needed elsewhere. You have a choice, send food to your soldiers and factory workers or to convicts (the vast majority of whom were sent away for non-political crimes). It's not a really hard choice when you are on the brink of annihilation.

i believe that finally kgb records released under yeltsin showed that about 4 million people were represed, not murdered, in the 30s
200 million thing was, of course, a sarcastic remark. according to the maths laid out very often, there should not be a single living russian, let alone chechen or ukrainian. solzhenitsin was the first one to start that silly licitation - he met a deserved fate, a second rate writer despised by many...
what most of those grossly inflated figures are overlooking is that you cannot really say gulags were death camps. they were brutal forced labor camps, often torture camps and brainwashing. but it was not a soap factory. to kill that many people as moomin's quote estimates, you got to have german efficiency (i hope this does not insult germans)

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by Saras
When the Soviet Union comes back, I join the resistance and kill as many commies before they kill me.

oh 'forest people', the 'friends' of jews and 'enemies' of fascists