Thread Tools
Old August 1, 2002, 03:20   #1
delsolsi
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 05:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Washington
Posts: 82
Is this considered an exploit?
The last three games I've won on regent have been diplomatic victories. On all three of these wins one turn before I finish the UN I gift 100 gold points to all the other civs. When I finish the UN the next turn I say yes to the vote and every time its me and one other civ. I end up with all the votes except for the guy how votes for himself. Before I started doing this it was about 50/50 if I would win the vote or there wouldn't be a majority, I haven't lost a vote yet. Is this considered an exploit or cheating?
delsolsi is offline  
Old August 1, 2002, 03:42   #2
Conqueror
PtWDG Gathering StormCivilization III PBEMCivilization III MultiplayerApolyton UniversityC3CDG Ankh-Morpork
King
 
Conqueror's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UAC research complex
Posts: 2,357
Clearly its no exploit, the other civs are just happy about you gifting them gold.
I dont know about regent but on Monarch+ levels this kind of last minute bribing has almost no effect, more weighs how have you been behaving towards the other civs for few dozen (or more) turns before the vote.
Conqueror is offline  
Old August 1, 2002, 05:47   #3
Sean
Prince
 
Local Time: 05:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Auckland, New Zealand.
Posts: 689
Ihave given 1000 of gold to civs, you then didn't vote for me. Its all about your reputation, obvously yours is good.
__________________
"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke
Sean is offline  
Old August 1, 2002, 06:30   #4
rob.derosa
Chieftain
 
rob.derosa's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 76
Your automatically put up for election if you build it, the other person is the person with the highest approval rating, I think.
rob.derosa is offline  
Old August 1, 2002, 07:49   #5
NeoStar
Warlord
 
NeoStar's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 266
No cheat - just an easy way to win. You can always turn it off...
__________________
"Show me a man or a woman alone and I'll show you a saint. Give me two and they'll fall in love. Give me three and they'll invent the charming thing we call 'society'. Give me four and they'll build a pyramid. Give me five and they'll make one an outcast. Give me six and they'll reinvent prejudice. Give me seven and in seven years they'll reinvent warfare. Man may have been made in the image of God, but human society was made in the image of His opposite number, and is always trying to get back home." - Glen Bateman, The Stand (Stephen King)
NeoStar is offline  
Old August 1, 2002, 08:26   #6
vondrack
lifer
InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMCivilization IV PBEMPtWDG Legoland
Emperor
 
vondrack's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Praha, Czech Republic
Posts: 5,581
Quote:
Originally posted by rob.derosa
Your automatically put up for election if you build it, the other person is the person with the highest approval rating, I think.
Incorrect.

It is as follows:

EVERY civ that fits AT LEAST ONE of the following conditions will have its leader as a candidate:

1) has built the UN wonder
2) controls at least 25% of the world's territory
3) controls at least 25% of the world's population

If there is only one civ eligible according to these conditions, than the civ coming second IN POPULATION will have its leader as the second candidate.

There are always at least two candidates, but there can be three, and purely theoretically, even four of them.
vondrack is offline  
Old August 1, 2002, 08:38   #7
DeepO
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Emperor
 
DeepO's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: supporting Candle'Bre
Posts: 8,773
Vondrack, purely theoretically there can be 7 candidates, however this would be very unlikely. But I've seen 4 candidates a few times, and I think that after a nuclear war, there is a chance you have 5.

7 candidates: 3 control more then 25% of the territory, 3 control more then 25% of the people (which in most cases are the same 3 of the territory), and 1 has built the UN.

As to how to get into the favor of the non-candidates: you need an impeccable reputation, have to get some trade going with them, and bribing can be a very good thing, just spread it out a little (20 odd turns on Emperor will do it). Last turn, you don't need money, you can always gift techs or cities

DeepO
DeepO is offline  
Old August 1, 2002, 08:57   #8
vondrack
lifer
InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMCivilization IV PBEMPtWDG Legoland
Emperor
 
vondrack's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Praha, Czech Republic
Posts: 5,581
Quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
Vondrack, purely theoretically there can be 7 candidates, however this would be very unlikely.
Oops...
Of course, you are right.
I wasn't thinking theoretically enough...
vondrack is offline  
Old August 1, 2002, 09:35   #9
dunk
Prince
 
dunk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 978
nevermind. I made a dumb mistake.
dunk is offline  
Old August 1, 2002, 14:19   #10
Catt
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton University
King
 
Catt's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:17
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: California - SF Bay Area
Posts: 2,120
For the most part I think exploits are in the eye of the beholder - we all play with tactics / exploits / cheats with which we are comfortable.

IMHO, I think the gifting technique is an exploit (though not always a successful one as others have pointed out). I also think the "sign MPPs; declare war but don't attack; wait to get attacked; MPP is triggered; enjoy landslide victory" is an even more unconscionable exploit.

Catt
Catt is offline  
Old August 1, 2002, 14:53   #11
Jaybe
Mac
Emperor
 
Jaybe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:17
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Henderson, NV USA
Posts: 4,168
If someone else builds the UN, then gifting gold (or attempting to improve relations in ANY way) is a defensive tactic, lest they call for a vote. You are then held hostage for the rest of the game -- interesting, suspense-filled situation!

If YOU build the UN, then calling for a vote is saying that you are ready for the game to end, before you have enjoyed the thrills, suspense (and drudgery ) of the Modern Age.

I rarely disable diplomatic victory, as it is both a blessing and a curse (perfect balance ).

BTW, to REALLY appreciate the Modern Age, I recommend using the Editor to delay some of the spaceship parts. I have made a couple of them require Robotics, and delayed most of the others. (No, I haven't gotten that far yet in a 1.29 game).
__________________
JB
I play BtS (3.19) -- Noble or Prince, Rome, marathon speed, huge hemispheres (2 of them), aggressive AI, no tech brokering. I enjoy the Hephmod Beyond mod. For all non-civ computer uses, including internet, I use a Mac.
Jaybe is offline  
Old August 1, 2002, 21:00   #12
steven8r
Prince
 
steven8r's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:17
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: of Central Texas
Posts: 561
It's not an exploit; it's brown-nosing.

Ahh, the sweet... er whatever, smell of victory!
__________________
"...Every Right implies a certain Responsibility; Every Opportunity, an Obligation; Every Possession, a Duty." --J.D. Rockerfeller, Jr.
steven8r is offline  
Old August 1, 2002, 21:54   #13
DeepO
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Emperor
 
DeepO's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: supporting Candle'Bre
Posts: 8,773
Quote:
Originally posted by Catt
IMHO, I think the gifting technique is an exploit
Maybe... but purely giving things will get you nowhere. And, arguably this is how it happens irl too, world politics is a matter of giving with one hand, not giving with the other, and asking for some favor in between..

Quote:
I also think the "sign MPPs; declare war but don't attack; wait to get attacked; MPP is triggered; enjoy landslide victory" is an even more unconscionable exploit.
Hrmmm, I wonder who was last to mention this 'exploit'
Again, this a way to play the game, and may be an exploit to some, but to others a way of playing with the current game rules and 'dumbness' of the AI. I can't feel wrong for doing it, even if I'll try to avoid it. But in war and marriage anything is allowed, like someone once said, and it may be a dirty trick to fight a war, it is a valid tactic nonetheless.

But indeed, the things that are considered exploits change when asking different players, someone (sorry, can't remember the name) feels that using artillery is an exploit, as the AI can't use it effectively. Well, maybe so, but I will use artillery whenever I feel it makes civ-life easier. There are other ways in which the AI is given the advantage, so I can't see any problem with outsmarting it. As long as a certain thing you do is not overly unbalancing (shifting defensive positions to keep the AI dancing, for instance), and as long as you feel good doing it, don't stop because someone else thinks it's an exploit. (no offence Catt, you know I respect your opinion)

One of the criteria I use in deciding what I consider an exploit is whether it would be possible to do it in MP too, and 'fool' other players with it. Giving things is therefore allowed, as I will certainly give things to players to gain their trust and friendship. Waiting until the other player attacks is also allowed, as he can wait as well. Using artillery is allowed, and dancing with troops you can try, but won't do you any good (and thus is an exploit to me). All of this is very personal, of course.

DeepO
DeepO is offline  
Old August 2, 2002, 01:11   #14
Catt
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton University
King
 
Catt's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:17
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: California - SF Bay Area
Posts: 2,120
Quote:
Originally posted by DeepO

[ . . . . ] as long as you feel good doing it, don't stop because someone else thinks it's an exploit. (no offence Catt, you know I respect your opinion)
Couldn't agree more and certainly no offense taken - the most important function of these boards (to my own mind at least) is to share opinions (and only secondarily to share unknown facts / quirks of the game), and until someone is attacked personally in some way (as sometimes happens from some of the more immature or emotionally challenged posters), no one should take any offense. Delsolsi, come to your own decision regarding the UN and tactics surrounding it - no one will think any more or less of you!

Quote:
One of the criteria I use in deciding what I consider an exploit is whether it would be possible to do it in MP too, and 'fool' other players with it. Giving things is therefore allowed, as I will certainly give things to players to gain their trust and friendship. Waiting until the other player attacks is also allowed, as he can wait as well.
I largely agree with the "would it work in MP" test. But, assuming that test as the baseline for judging "exploit or no," I don't see how taking action around the UN qualifies as legitimate play tactics. Unless the human players in MP are playing as a team (in which case the point is moot), or unless one human player wants to quit the game but feels compelled to play to a victory condition, even a losing one, rather than just abandon the game, I would think that most human players would choose to abstain rather than vote for a fellow competitor at the UN.

I think diplomatic victory is uniquely (among the victory conditions) an SP victory option; all the others "have legs" in MP. (gifting during gameplay is fine; gifting to secure a UN vote makes me a little uncomfortable, and crosses my tactic / exploit line).

Quote:
Hrmmm, I wonder who was last to mention this 'exploit'
???

Catt
Catt is offline  
Old August 2, 2002, 07:21   #15
DeepO
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Emperor
 
DeepO's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: supporting Candle'Bre
Posts: 8,773
Quote:
Originally posted by Catt
I largely agree with the "would it work in MP" test. But, assuming that test as the baseline for judging "exploit or no," I don't see how taking action around the UN qualifies as legitimate play tactics. Unless the human players in MP are playing as a team (in which case the point is moot), or unless one human player wants to quit the game but feels compelled to play to a victory condition, even a losing one, rather than just abandon the game, I would think that most human players would choose to abstain rather than vote for a fellow competitor at the UN.
Well, I don't know. In MP, if I see that I will lose anyhow, I would vote for my friend, he who helped me during the game. True, you don't have to bribe me the last 2 turns, that wouldn't do any good, but if, during the whole game, someone has been giving things, helping out with aliances and MPPs and trading a lot with me, I won't forget that. Of course, if I would be on a good road to a space victory, no-one will get my vote, but this is also how it happens with the AIs: If they feel like they can win, they won't vote for you.
Quote:
Quote:
Hrmmm, I wonder who was last to mention this 'exploit'
???
Oh, I mentioned this just an hour before you posted the 'exploit' here in another thread you were also participating in. I don't want to come across as someone who wins purely by exploiting the weaknesses of the AI, on the contrary, I see myself as a 'give the AI a fair chance' guy. But declaring war and waiting for the attack so that the MPPs go in your favor is one of the things I use reasonably often, to intitiate world wars. I know that the AI does not have the same level of understanding what geopolitics is concerned, and dangling a worker in front of them to provoke them might not be a fair tactic, but it will also mean that they are given the opportunity to draw first blood. If they do it right, I will be seriously hampered by their initial attack wave. So it is a choice you make: do you want support from the other AIs and better war weariness, or do you want to take the initiative, risk opposing everyone, and take 'double' war weariness just so you can have a better planned attack?

DeepO
DeepO is offline  
Old August 2, 2002, 12:31   #16
Catt
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton University
King
 
Catt's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:17
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: California - SF Bay Area
Posts: 2,120
Quote:
Originally posted by DeepO

Well, I don't know. In MP, if I see that I will lose anyhow, I would vote for my friend, he who helped me during the game. True, you don't have to bribe me the last 2 turns, that wouldn't do any good, but if, during the whole game, someone has been giving things, helping out with aliances and MPPs and trading a lot with me, I won't forget that. Of course, if I would be on a good road to a space victory, no-one will get my vote, but this is also how it happens with the AIs: If they feel like they can win, they won't vote for you.
Sure - if I am truly beyond all hope of winning, I would probably vote for the player who has played most honorably and treated me well during the game - but a sudden gift of gold / tech / luxuries [] wouldn't influence my decision (or I suspect others') to risk ending the game or not. Again, I don't think at all the gifting to opposing players is per se an exploit - I am responding to delsolsi's question of whether I consider gifting to AIs just before the UN vote is an exploit. I do.

Quote:
Oh, I mentioned this just an hour before you posted the 'exploit' here in another thread you were also participating in.
Oh. I didn't see that post and my comment was not in any way directed at you! Sorry if it seemed that way.

Quote:
But declaring war and waiting for the attack so that the MPPs go in your favor is one of the things I use reasonably often, to intitiate world wars. I know that the AI does not have the same level of understanding what geopolitics is concerned, and dangling a worker in front of them to provoke them might not be a fair tactic, but it will also mean that they are given the opportunity to draw first blood. If they do it right, I will be seriously hampered by their initial attack wave. So it is a choice you make: do you want support from the other AIs and better war weariness, or do you want to take the initiative, risk opposing everyone, and take 'double' war weariness just so you can have a better planned attack?
I too don't consider holding back an attack in order to trigger MPPs in the most favorable way to be an exploit. What I consider an exploit, and a particularly unconscionable one at that, is to sign up a bunch of MPPs just before the UN vote, trigger the war as described, and sail to a landslide victory. Your AI allies will simply never (in my experience) vote against you or abstain - they will always vote for you (could be exceptions, but I haven't seen them). IMHO, this is simply exploiting a "flaw" in the AI logic and dramaticaly cheapens the victory. No fun

Said before but worth saying again - tactics / exploits / cheats are in the eye of the beholder - everyone will come to his / her own conclusions of where a particular action falls on the spectrum - I certainly wouldn't think any less of a player or person because their conclusions differ from mine.

Catt
Catt is offline  
Old August 2, 2002, 14:00   #17
DeepO
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Emperor
 
DeepO's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: supporting Candle'Bre
Posts: 8,773
Quote:
Originally posted by Catt
I too don't consider holding back an attack in order to trigger MPPs in the most favorable way to be an exploit. What I consider an exploit, and a particularly unconscionable one at that, is to sign up a bunch of MPPs just before the UN vote, trigger the war as described, and sail to a landslide victory. Your AI allies will simply never (in my experience) vote against you or abstain - they will always vote for you (could be exceptions, but I haven't seen them). IMHO, this is simply exploiting a "flaw" in the AI logic and dramaticaly cheapens the victory. No fun
Now it is my time to blush
I misunderstood you. as I just posted the tactic of laying out MPPs, and triggering them in such a way that you have the biggest advantaged, I thought you were talking about that. In all honesty, I hadn't heard of the 'tactic' to join MPPs and trigger a war with your primal opponent in order to secure the votes, and indeed, this is also an exploit in my view. After you mentioned it, I thought back, and must admit that once I used it unknowingly, except that in this case I was sneak attacked, and did not declare war myself. I remember I was surprised to see so many of the AIs voting for me, I had been honorable, but not especially nice to them. It was the common enemy that made them vote for me. Indeed, an AI flaw which is exploitable.

DeepO
DeepO is offline  
Old August 4, 2002, 02:08   #18
Zylka
Civilization II MultiplayerDiploGamesApolytoners Hall of Fame
King
 
Local Time: 05:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Hidden within an infantile Ikea fortress
Posts: 1,054
It's a tough call... I'd say it isn't an exploit
Zylka is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:17.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team