Something about The Ottomans and The Turks

[Gauke]

I wanna correct some mistakes that made by some Civ3 fans here.

First of all, I'm a Turk and I wanna tell you about my history. No one can know the Turks better than a Turk cos we all learn our history at school very deeply.

Turks first lived in the middle asia. They were named as 'Huns' then. When the Hun empire collapsed, The Turks emigrated to the west. They came over the Anatolia and formed a big empire: Seljuk Empire. After that when the Seljuk empire collapsed there were many tiny govermental states formed all over Anatolia.(But there was also the Byzantine). And among them there was a powerful one: The Ottomans. They were founded in 1299. Their first Capital was Sogut which is a village in Turkey now. The man who founded the Ottoman empire was Sultan Osman. In Turkish language Ottomans are called 'Osmanli' which means 'founded by Osman'. They got bigger and bigger having many cities as their capital such as: Izmit, Bursa, Edirne and the last: Istanbul. When Fatih Sultan Mehmet (The conqueror) conquered Istanbul, The Byzantine Empire was collapsed in 1453.

And about Janisseries, In Turkish they are 'YeniCeri' which means 'New Troops'. They were the soldiers in the Ottoman army. But in the 16. Century they got worse and made some rebellion so their army was collapsed by Sultan Mahmut and he formed a new army.

And in the First World War Ottoman Empire was with Germany and Austria-Hungary. At the end of the war they lost and the winner countries came over the Ottoman to share it. They(English,French and Italians) captured Istanbul and forced The Ottomans to make a pact. The last Sultan of The Ottomans 'Vahdettin' agreed the pact and gave his country to the occupiers. Only a little land was left for the Ottomans: Ankara and its surroundings. Then there was a man named Mustafa Kemal Ataturk who visited most of the cities near Ankara and encouraged the people that they can defeat the enemy and take their land back. They founded a state in Ankara in 1923 and Ankara became the capital. And there started a Independence War for the Turks. After 2 years they defeated all of the enemies and took their land back. Now they are still living in their lands.

That's all. This is the shortest history of the Turks that I can tell. I wrote this because some people didn't know about The Turks and The Ottomans well. I hope I'm helpful and if you're interested I can tell more and even scan some maps of the Ottoman Empire or something else.

Thanks for reading this. Sorry for my English.

[GhengisFarb™]

That was great, thanks for sharing the info! If we can get some more members to do this, like yin26 did with Korea, it would help some of the more creative people with making new civs and scenarios.

[The Pioneer]

Originally posted by Gauke
I wanna correct some mistakes that made by some Civ3 fans here.

First of all, I'm a Turk and I wanna tell you about my history. No one can know the Turks better than a Turk cos we all learn our history at school very deeply.

First of all thank you for sharing the information with us. I gave nothing to contradict, although I would lke to add that (since you mentioned WWI) that in WWII you tried to stay neutral with a tendency towards the Axis but after the second half of the war you actually sided with the allies. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I would like to argue though that you cannot rely at gov't schools with books that are actually written by or for the gov't, thus by default not always objective and accurate to learn your own history. The same for our schools in Greece or schools in Germany and a lot of other countries. You actually do not get an objectve view of ones history until you read many different points of view which will help you interpret and understand your own history, or any history for that matter, better.
Just to give you an example I came to see our history a in a diffrent light after attending schools in three different countries in two diffrent continents and supplementing that fact with independent reading.

So long...

[Gauke]

Originally posted by The Pioneer

First of all thank you for sharing the information with us. I gave nothing to contradict, although I would lke to add that (since you mentioned WWI) that in WWII you tried to stay neutral with a tendency towards the Axis but after the second half of the war you actually sided with the allies. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Yes. It's right. Turkey did sided with the allies in WWII. I don't know much about that Turkey's parting in the war but I know that it was very unimportant cos the war was about to finish. That's what I've been thought.

And about the other thing, yeah you're right. The things I've told may not be so objective. Of course most of the history books in Turkey, or the books in another county will tell the events subjective. But that's not the way it has to be. So I agree with you. But most of the info I've given is objective. If I have any mistakes, please correct them.

And Thanks to you all; GhengisFarb and The Pioneer. You're welcome.

[Wernazuma III]

Gauke, could you write a short history of Turkey in, say, 30-40 lines?
It should cover the history of the Ottoman Empire and modern Turkey, and only 2-3 sentences about the origin of the Turks and the ancient inhabitants of Turkey, leaving other Turkic peoples completely out.

I'd need such an abstract for a civilopedia entry in my upcoming modpack.
Thanks, Wernazuma

[Gauke]

Yes Wernazuma III. I'll try to write it. I think It'll be ready before the night.

And BTW I've made a Turkish civilization for myself. I can give you the city names to you if you want.

[Hagbart]

Originally posted by Gauke
Yes Wernazuma III. I'll try to write it. I think It'll be ready before the night.

And BTW I've made a Turkish civilization for myself. I can give you the city names to you if you want.

Thank you for the information on the Turkish history , which I did not knew much about. If you like to you can post your list of Turkish city names here as i'm sure other people would like to see it too..

[Gauke]

First Turkish occupation was in the Middle Asia. They first appeared as Huns(from 408 to 453). They made wars against China and forced the Chinese to build the Great Wall. Because if they didn’t, Huns were going to capture all over the China so they had to stop them so they build it. After these years because of the climate changings they had to go west. The Turkish group divided into many little groups but the most important of these, were Huns and Seljuks. Finding lands to their liking, the Huns settled on the Hungarian plain in Eastern Europe, making their headquarters at the city of Szeged on the Tisza River. The Hun empire disintegrated following the death of Attila in 453 with no strong leader of his ability to hold it together. Subject peoples revolted and factions within their group fought each other for dominance. They eventually disappeared under a tide of new invaders, such as the Avars, and disappeared from history. The name Turk refers to two different Muslim groups of the Middle East-first the Seljuks and then the Ottomans. The Seljuks, nomads from the steppes near the Caspian Sea, converted to Islam around the tenth century. The first great Turkish state to rule Anatolia was the Great Seljuk Turkish Empire (1037-1109), based in Persia. Coming from Central Asia, the Turks captured Baghdad (1055). In 1071, Seljuk armies decisively defeated the Byzantine at Manzikert (Malazgirt), taking the Byzantine emperor as a prisoner.Approximately 70,000 Seljuks started as mercenaries to fill the ranks of the Islamic army of the caliph of Baghdad. These mercenaries converted to the Sunni branch of Islam. In 1055 they became the real power behind the caliph in Baghdad and began extending their rule. Their leaders took the title sultan, meaning "holders of power." By 1100 they controlled most of Anatolia (taken from the Byzantines), Palestine, the lands surrounding the Persian Gulf, the holy cities of Arabia, and as far east as Samarkand.In 1071 the Seljuks achieved a stunning victory over a Byzantine army at Malazgirt in modern Turkey, which led to Turkish occupation of most of Anatolia. At nearly the same time, they successfully captured Jerusalem from its Egyptian Muslim rulers. These two events shocked the Byzantines, the papacy, and the Christian Europeans. The result was the Crusades, which carried on for the next 200 years.The Seljuk Turks were worn down by the recurring wars with the Crusaders, even though they were successful ultimately in regaining control of Palestine. They were threatened simultaneously by the activities of the Assassins, a heretical sect of Islam. Internally, Islam entered a period of introspection because of the popularity of Sufi mysticism. During this period of exhaustion and weakness,they were attacked suddenly by the Mongols and collapsed. Baghdad fell to the invaders in 1258 and the Seljuk Empire disappeared.Islamic peoples from Anatolia (modern Turkey in Asia Minor) were unified in the early fourteenth century under Sultan Osman I and took the name Osmanli, or Ottomans, in his honor. In the late 13 th century, Byzantine weakness left a power vacuum which was filled by bands of Turks fleeing westwards from the Mongols. Warrior bands, each led by a warlord, took over parts of the Aegean and Marmara coasts. The Turks who moved into Bithynia, around Bursa,were followers of a man named Ertugrul. His son, Osman, founded a principality (circa 1288) which was to grow into the Osmanli (Ottoman) Empire.The Ottomans swore a jihad against the crumbling Byzantine Empire and took their campaign around Constantinople into the Balkans. In 1389 the Serbs were defeated. In 1396 a "crusader" army from Hungary was defeated.Ottoman successes were temporarily halted by the Mongols under Tamerlane, but he moved on with his army and the Ottomans recovered.Sultan Mehmed II ("the Conqueror") at last captured Constantinople on May 29, 1453. The great walls of Constantinople were battered by 70 guns for eight weeks and then 15,000 Janissaries led the successful assault.The Ottomans pushed on into Europe following the capture of Constantinople and threatened a sort of reverse Crusade. The height of Ottoman glory was under Sultan Süleyman the Magnificent (1520-66). Called the ' Lawgiver' by the Turks, he beautified Istanbul, rebuilt Jerusalem and expanded Ottoman power to the gates of Vienna in 1529. The Ottoman fleet under Barbaros Hayrettin Pasa seemed invincible, but by 1585 the empire had begun its long and celebrated decline. They were stopped by a Hungarian army at Belgrade in 1456, however. Attacks on Vienna were repulsed in 1529 and again in 1683. At its peak in the sixteenth century, the Ottoman Empire reached up into Europe to Budapest and Odessa and included all of Greece and the Balkans, the lands surrounding the Black Sea, Asia Minor, the Levant, Arabia, Egypt, and most of North Africa. By 1699, Europeans no longer feared an invasion by the 'terrible Turk '. The empire was still vast and powerful, but it had lost its momentum and was rapidly dropping behind the west in terms of social, military, scientific and material progress. In the 19 th century, several sultans under took important reforms. Selim III, for instance , revised taxation, commerce and the military. The situation looked very bleak for the Turks as their armies were being disbanded and their country taken under the country taken under the control of the Allies. But a catastrophe turned things around. Ever since gaining independence in 1831, the Greeks had entertained the Megali Idea (Great Plan) of a new Greek empire encompassing all the lands which had once had Greek empire encompassing all the lands which had once had Greek influence - in effect, the refounding of the Byzantine Empire. By the way, a man named Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk) formed a group of people and visited some cities such as Sivas, Erzurum and Amasya. He encouraged People to form a new council independent from the Ottoman council. Then the council was found in Ankara and so there was a new state found: The Turkish Republic. And there was only one thing left to do: Taking their country back. So they started the war of independence. They fought in several fronts such as; the east front, the south front and the west front. The fought against Russians and Armenians in the east front, against French in the south front, and against Greeks in the west front. They were all defeated after the war and at least they reached today’s Turkey. And the founder Mustaf Kemal was renamed by the Turkish high council as Mustafa Kemal Ataturk which means(Ataturk) The Father of The Turks.

I hope that’s enough for you. I took some info from Age Of Empire 2’s history section and some websites.

And here is the Turkish city list:

Ankara
Istanbul
Izmir
Adana
Bursa
Gaziantep
Konya
Kayseri
Eskisehir
Diyarbakir
Erzurum
Samsun
Antalya
Hatay
Mersin
Manisa
Sanliurfa
Zonguldak
Afyon
Balikesir
Edirne
Mugla
Trabzon
Van
Tokat
Canakkale
Kutahya
Sakarya
Bolu
Kocaeli
Tekirdag
Kirklareli
Aydin
Adiyaman
Erzincan
Agri
Kars
Rize
Yozgat
Kastamonu
Denizli
Isparta
Burdur
Usak
Nigde
Nevsehir
Corum
Ordu
Sivas
Aksaray
Mus

Their leader is Ataturk as you know. And I made them Industrious and Commercial(I don’t know if I’m right but they are most Likely to be). They know horseback riding and alphabet.

[Wernazuma III]

Thanks you for the info, Gauke :b!

My Turkish Civ will have Mehmet as ruler.
Also, it lamentably will be Militaristic, Scientific. I say lamentably, because it's a democratic modpack with 16 additional civs and we tried to evade having several civs with the same CSA combination. I wanted to give them Mil, Com though...

[Gauke]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Thanks you for the info, Gauke :b!

My Turkish Civ will have Mehmet as ruler.
Also, it lamentably will be Militaristic, Scientific. I say lamentably, because it's a democratic modpack with 16 additional civs and we tried to evade having several civs with the same CSA combination. I wanted to give them Mil, Com though...

Yeah good choice but the cities and the attributes I listed was for the Turks.(Which live in Turkey now). And I think you're making the Ottomans. The cities I listed was the cities in Turkey now not the Ottoman cities. If you're gonna make it you should have Ottoman cities(Most of the cities that the Turks have was also had by the Ottomans but they had more(Like; Athens, Jaruselam, etc.) And you should call your civ. as Ottomans.

[Wernazuma III]

Then the problem would be that many of those cities (Jerusalem, Athens etc. are already used by other civs, but that always happens. I mean, I can't have Athens as Greek, Roman AND Turk civ.

We decided to call the Civ "Turks" because calling them "Ottomans" wouldn't directly refer to the people which was the backbone of the Empire.

Off-Topic: What do you think of your country abandoning Death penalty?

[Coracle]

Great job, Gauke.

Tell me this. . . How did Turkey manage to become the only true SECULAR non-religious Muslim state in the region? And don't say "Ataturk did it". I want to how he was ABLE to do it without any subsequent Muslim revolt.

BTW, I know Civ 3 has big limitations with reality and history, but I would love to see a scenario depicting the Greco-Turkish War eighty years ago. The Greeks almost took Ankara!


Oh yes. Please use PARAGRAPHS.

[JohnM2433]

Originally posted by Gauke
Thanks for reading this. Sorry for my English.

Eh? I didn't detect any significant grammatical or spelling errors. I think you write in Engish better than you realize.

Originally posted by Gauke
Their leader is Ataturk as you know. And I made them Industrious and Commercial(I don’t know if I’m right but they are most Likely to be). They know horseback riding and alphabet.

Doesn't Horseback Riding require the Wheel and Warrior Code? It at least requires The Wheel, unless you change the tech tree. Maybe you mean the Wheel instead of Horseback Riding.

Also, if I recall correctly, Industrious civs normally start with Masonry, Commercial civs with Alphabet, and Militaristic civs with The Wheel or Warrior Code. But there's no reason we should have to stay by that; after all, especially now that we can have at least two civs with the same traits, giving civs different trait/starting tech combinations will help to make them more distinct, at least to some degree, which is an obvious goal. There's no point in having lots of different civs if they're almost the same!

[XarXo]

I've a question: What about kurds?

Somebody told me that in the threaty ok divison of the Ottoman Empire there was a place for kurds (Kurdistan), but at least Babylon (Iraq), Persia (Iran) and Turkey absorbed and divided the territory for themselves (they are all great countries and kurdish are a typycal mid-asian nomadic people).

Is true this? Thanks for answering!

PS: The idea of this reply is not start a looong, useless and boring thread about kurds. Please.

[Gauke]

Sorry, I couldn't answer your questions cos I had an accident and broke my arm. I'll reply soon...

[GeneralTacticus]

Tell me this. . . How did Turkey manage to become the only true SECULAR non-religious Muslim state in the region? And don't say "Ataturk did it". I want to how he was ABLE to do it without any subsequent Muslim revolt.

AFAIK, Syria, Iraq and Egypt are reasonably secular as well.

[Gauke]

Hi!

Now I'm better(still can't use my right arm though) and now I'll answer your questions one by one:

First Wernazuma III's question:

What do you think of your country abandoning Death penalty?

My answer:

I was happy about it cos I don't like when they use capital punishment. There are some ppl who didnot want it to be abandoned but it was. And it was needed for Turkey to be a member of the European Community.

Coracle's question:

Tell me this. . . How did Turkey manage to become the only true SECULAR non-religious Muslim state in the region? And don't say "Ataturk did it". I want to how he was ABLE to do it without any subsequent Muslim revolt.

Oh yes. Please use PARAGRAPHS.

My answer:

Could you please ask in different words? I didn't understand your question. Sorry

And about using PARAGRAPHS, I was in a hurry when I posted that so I couldn't seperate the article into PARAGRAPHS.

JohnM2433's question:

Doesn't Horseback Riding require the Wheel and Warrior Code? It at least requires The Wheel, unless you change the tech tree. Maybe you mean the Wheel instead of Horseback Riding.


My answer: Yes I was wrong. It should be The Wheel instead of HR.

XarXo's question:

I've a question: What about kurds?

Somebody told me that in the threaty ok divison of the Ottoman Empire there was a place for kurds (Kurdistan), but at least Babylon (Iraq), Persia (Iran) and Turkey absorbed and divided the territory for themselves (they are all great countries and kurdish are a typycal mid-asian nomadic people).

Is this true?

My answer:

I think yes. That is true if I'm not wrong. They live in the south-east of Turkey most. They speak Turkish but mostly their own language Kurdish. In Turkey they can make broadcasts in their own language. And if you are a Turk, you can learn Kurdish if you want.

That's all

If you have more questions, feel free to ask.

Thanks to you all!

[DarkTori]

Originally posted by Coracle
Great job, Gauke.

Tell me this. . . How did Turkey manage to become the only true SECULAR non-religious Muslim state in the region? And don't say "Ataturk did it". I want to how he was ABLE to do it without any subsequent Muslim revolt.

I am doing some personal research on the end of the Ottoman Empire and at least two factors it this.

The first is that the Ottomans were heavly infuenced by Europe, and as history took thier toll on the Ottomans more ideas from Europe influenced the population and the government. Because of this Turkey is in between two cultures throughout history and is more able to take from both (thus it is another democratic state besides Israel)

Second is that towards the end of the Ottoman period many government officials were "non-religious" or even athiest and tried to impliment policies that were "against Islam" (that was the thinking of the time when people were more conservative) but tried to ease the population into it.

I hope that this may answer your question.

I'm really happy that they added the Ottomans into the game (and the mongols).

-Ocean