What if America falls?

Shiber · August 2, 2002, 10:46

America currently has two cities. One is Boston, their capital, with two population and some nice and diverse land around it. The other is Chicago, which is surrounded by green hills and mountains and is located near a large deposit of spice. It is also just half a dozen tiles away from Ivory coast.
Both are in the vicinity of a river which allows them to grow beyond 6 without an aqueduct. Both are very appealing. Both are very lightly defended.
Now, I assume that the Americans have one spearman stationed at each city, two to the most. If Germany, Greece or the Aztecs decide to capture their cities, which they most likely will as I suspect they can't resist the temptation long enough (especially Germany), they would win them quickly and for a very low cost. Therefore I believe we should be the ones to capture America's last cities rather than let it fall to the hands of the AIs!
IMHO we should send out our old archer/spearmen stack to America once more and finish the job. Think about it: though we'll have borders with the Aztecs and the Greek, as well as new borders with Germany, we should be able to protect these two cities if we leave a spearman and three archers in each city (the archers can counter any AI attacks from within the city and can later be upgraded to longbow men) and perhaps reinforce Chicago with another spearman. Or just to be sure we can have one swordsman accompany the stack and fortify in one of the cities.

Allow me to analyze my proposal:
In brief: we attack Boston and Chicago with our famous archers/spearmen stack and once we win (which is the likely result) we can leave half the task force at Boston and the other half at Chicago to guard those cities from the AIs.
Pros:
* We'll make use of our archers/spearmen stack before the archers become too obsolete.
* We'll win two cities for a very low price.
* We'll acquire spice and get access to Ivory Coast.
Cons:
* We'll create new borders with Greece, Aztecs and Germany.
* We'll annoy the world for eliminating a civ (not so sure about this).

Any thoughts? Suggestions?

Note: this campaign should not replace our plans to conquer French territory, though I wouldn't recommend taking this proposal if we're going to attack Germany with the rest of our swordsmen as well.

Robber Baron · August 2, 2002, 10:52

Moving against America before our 20-turn peace treaty is up would seriously damage our reputation, critically impairing our future diplomacy and trading capability. I realize America is vulnerable right now. But IMO, we have to wait, and hope Abe survives.

Shiber · August 2, 2002, 10:56

By the time our forces reach America the 20-turn peace treaty would be over. I was counting on it.
As for Abe's chances of survival, they seem very slim. I'd bet his military force consists of no more than 2-3 spearmen. He can't possibly withstand an attack.

Spiffor · August 2, 2002, 10:59

Don't forget we're still in the REX phase : Greece, Germany and America are interested in Ivory coast above all.
Plus America has at least 1 archer and 2 warriors you didn't take into account. I don't think the AI will declare war to them within the next 20 turns. We're the only ones to build swordsmen instead of settlers.

Shiber · August 2, 2002, 11:11

You are right, I completely forgot about the archer and the two warriors.
The rest of your arguments are convincing as well. I'm dropping the proposal.

UnOrthOdOx · August 2, 2002, 11:13

Don't under estimate the American army. He has at least two archers, likely more now that he fears us. We saw those archers right when we made peace. If you have an old save, look it up 925 or so. Let America get a few more cities placed as holders for us. Maybe we could persuade abe to settle further North? Just to save our place.

Epistax · August 2, 2002, 12:18

I agree that we should attack America ASAP-- but not before P! We must wait out the turns. Incense valley will prove most important (as well as the land around it), and anyone but the Americans owning it would be a terrible loss to us. I do not think we should let up on the French effort (not persia! grr) for a quick city grab, but instead upgrade some of our many defending warriors to tackle america, replacing them with real defense, spearmen.

GePap · August 2, 2002, 13:45

America will have 1, if not 2 more cities before we attack it again, which would mean a slighty longer war. We need to wait and see after France and the reactions of all our neighbors to our new power before we start makig any more plans.

Epistax · August 2, 2002, 15:01

I'd be content with burning a path to incense valley. I don't care about fringe cities of no concern. The Germans or Greece will pick those off in due course (and seem to enjoy razing).

Shiber · August 2, 2002, 15:46

Quote:

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
He has at least two archers, likely more now that he fears us.

I know. I started watching the game as a lurker when you began the war.

Kuciwalker · August 2, 2002, 16:02

Incense Valley is a must. Not just for the incense, but because it will also give us a prime staging ground for any offensives into Greece.

Inverse Icarus · August 2, 2002, 16:31

I doubt they will fall, unless it is by our own hand.

adaMada · August 2, 2002, 18:19

Depends if any of the other civs take their heads out of REX for a second and build any offensive military units... I wouldn't count on them being around much longer, but I think we can probably wait until the twenty turns are over.

-- adaMada

Shiber · August 2, 2002, 18:32

Uber says the Germans are/were fighting with the Persians. He saw a German unit fight a Persian unit, take damage but win.
I don't think the Germans would attack America at this point though. They'll be too busy with the Persians. Even if their war is over (which is unlikely since they're both aggressive civs and AFAIK such civs would rather see the other party propose a peace treaty) they are still not ready for another offensive.

adaMada · August 2, 2002, 18:42

Okay, so it seems very unlikely that the Germans will attack America -- yet, what if they did? How could we react? If anyone has a copy of the save game up, do we have any military units in the area that could be used should we need to declare war on America fast to get a peace of the pie before there's none left? How much would it hurt our other plans to leave an archer or two up there? Even understanding that we don't think the Germans will attack America, it's better to have some plans we can reference back to should that happen...

-- adaMada

Shiber · August 2, 2002, 19:04

According to plans, in 9 turns from now we'll have 10 warriors who will be upgraded to swordsmen, which means they'll be operational in 10 turns from now. If enough people agree, we could send two swordsmen to capture Incense Valley.

Robber Baron · August 2, 2002, 19:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber
According to plans, in 9 turns from now we'll have 10 warriors who will be upgraded to swordsmen, which means they'll be operational in 10 turns from now. If enough people agree, we could send two swordsmen to capture Incense Valley.

Are we sure that city has enough culture to survive and not be auto-razed?

Shiber · August 2, 2002, 19:23

We can't lose land to Sidon due to cultural expansion unless they have 100 or more culture points.
Ubergorsk is defended by a spearman and a warrior.
A Persian or German attack on Ubergorsk doesn't seem likely at the moment: both are most likely engaged in war with each other, neither of them really hates us and they're still expanding with settlers rather than with military units. Besides, they all have vulnerable cities like Ubergorsk in the area so they probably fear our counterattack.
In case we are attacked we can always try to sign a military alliance with either Persia, Germany or England (depends on the attacker).

notyoueither · August 2, 2002, 19:37

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker
Incense Valley is a must. Not just for the incest...

Some peculiar things go on in that valley.

As for the Persian-German war... the German unit Uber saw taking damage could have been attacked by a Barb. We don't know because the German unit survived so we never saw the attacker advance to be recognized.

Kuciwalker · August 2, 2002, 20:49

Oops, that was a typo. It's fixed now.

Panag · August 3, 2002, 11:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber
By the time our forces reach America the 20-turn peace treaty would be over. I was counting on it.
As for Abe's chances of survival, they seem very slim. I'd bet his military force consists of no more than 2-3 spearmen. He can't possibly withstand an attack.

hi ,

just dont underestimate him !

have a nice day

Inverse Icarus · August 3, 2002, 15:40

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither

Some peculiar things go on in that valley.

As for the Persian-German war... the German unit Uber saw taking damage could have been attacked by a Barb. We don't know because the German unit survived so we never saw the attacker advance to be recognized.

exactly. we cant know anything, but the persia warrior was in german territory, and we saw more walking there as we scouted around.

seemed a bit odd to me

kring · August 3, 2002, 16:55

It makes more sense to finish off America, then go after France.

America will fall, if not by us, then by someone else. I think the question is when and by whom will America fall. I don't advocate warmongering. In this instance, America is a goner, and we may as well do our best to prevent others, esp. aggressive neighbors, from benefiting to our detriment.

Since we don't know if Germany and Persia are/were fighting, we need to find out.

Go into the Foreign Advisor screen and see if they are at war.

To assUme they are at war, without checking the Foreign Advisor (that's one of its functions), is dangerous.

GePap · August 3, 2002, 17:06

We have an embassy with Persia, and no, Persia and Germany are not at war. Germany is still in Rex, and besides, they have a RoP with Abe, so unless they are looking to have evryone hate them, they won't go to war with Abe till that is done, though I am unsure of when that will be. I am surprised that the americans have not made a new city yet, and the greeks are moving fast to cut them off. As for chicago, right now I say that it would autoraze if we took it.

The A.I., especially Germany and Greece, both have plenty of open land to fill up, so I don't see them going to war yet. I think the English and Persians might go at it at some point, since they are really close and intertwined, but toherwise, we are the war starters in this continent.

Panag · August 4, 2002, 10:51

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap
We have an embassy with Persia, and no, Persia and Germany are not at war. Germany is still in Rex, and besides, they have a RoP with Abe, so unless they are looking to have evryone hate them, they won't go to war with Abe till that is done, though I am unsure of when that will be. I am surprised that the americans have not made a new city yet, and the greeks are moving fast to cut them off. As for chicago, right now I say that it would autoraze if we took it.

The A.I., especially Germany and Greece, both have plenty of open land to fill up, so I don't see them going to war yet. I think the English and Persians might go at it at some point, since they are really close and intertwined, but toherwise, we are the war starters in this continent.

hi ,

, but persia shall exploit its pact , ones it feels that abe is getting weaker , .....

have a nice day

Kuciwalker · August 4, 2002, 16:03

Why wouldn't the Germans want everyone to hate them? They do in my games.

OPD · August 4, 2002, 16:28

Yes Germany does have maximum aggression and just for the record France has minimum aggression levels

Kuciwalker · August 4, 2002, 16:41

That's realistic hehe.