War Academy: SMC Generalized Plan: The Greeks

[Inverse Icarus]

The Greeks are the number one civ right now (510 BC).

They are decently sized, have a fairly strong culture, and their Hoplites are a unit to be reckoned with.

I have expressed disdain over fighting the Greeks for a while now. The hoplite is one of the UUs i just hate to fight, their 3 defense value is bad enough, but if there's a mountain, all of a sudden you're facing a defense of 6. A calvary unit wouldnt like those odd, much less an archer.

Recently it's beomce evident that Greece will have to be dealt with sooner or later. They settled the Ivory coast, leaving a stretch of land between there and their main empire that will undoubtedly be taken by them (or the Americans, who wont be around mcuh longer).

Their empire is growing stronger and stronger, and we cannot let the Hoplites deter us from toppling them from their throne as the #1 civ. Knights may prove useful quite soon.

This is a thread for general strategies we could use against Greece. Nothing specific, as the map will change a bit between now and whenever we are ready for another war.

I call upon the War Academy to bring forth strategies that could prove useful for the invasion of Greece, should the need arise. Then we could mull over them and have a cohesive plan for when we would need it.

Simple things such as "which cities to take first", "which side to come in from", etc, really aren't that simple. They make all the difference, and now i ask you to help plan.

I have attached a overview of the greek lands, and what Apolytonia will include after this war with France and our next (final) war with the Americans. That is about 20-25 turns in the future.

Draw on the map, no matter how general. Write things down, get everything you can think of down and share it.

Long live Apolytonia.

[Inverse Icarus]

I'll get the ball rolling a bit.

Major Cities
Athens
Sparta
Delphi
Thermo.

Points to note
Greece has 5 major areas:

• A Hellish Jungle to the West (Smaller cities)
• A fertile Plain in the middle (Large, Old Cities)
• A Moutinous coastal Area
• An Island
• Floodplains and Luxuries to the north

Things they have that we want

• Ivory
• Wines
• Iron

There are a couple of ways to look at the land and plan around it.

One way would eb to chop down their major cities and then hunt down soem smaller ones before we sue for peace. Very effective because their major cities fall and they lose much production, economy, etc.

Another way would to be to look at where the borders would end up.

We'd probably want a continous empire, not one with gaping holes in it where the other civ still resides. Delphi (a jungle ridden size 3 city) now becomes a bit more valuable. Should troops be diverted there, or should we concentrate more on Athens, Sparta and Thermo? Could we pull it all off at once?

How many stacks should we use? Be reasonable (it's hard, i know). Think about costs / time. I think we'd have knights by this time, how many would we need in how many groups?

more later.

[Epistax]

I like a concave empire, not convex. Argos, Delphi, and My--whatever are just too pointy into us. Then again, those would be the first cities culture would take.. of course they have more culture than us.

Now the ivory coast has been settled, but no single city can take all of the coast-- there is still a perfectly good settling spot.

You mentioned we fear the greek hoplites. But we don't give them too much faith in attacking beyond how we can. So if we extend NW from chicago to the coast, we could declare war, take their northern cities (above us), and possibly attack my--- delphi, and argos. Assuming our cities have walls and spearmen, swordsmen are nothing special to defend against. (I wonder why the AI doesn't make them).

If we take/destroy enough cities, we can sue them bitterly for peace, taking all cash and techs they may have.

None of this would remove them from the #1 position on the count, but it would stop their expansion on our continent, and help secure our borders. We might also steal some cities in the process.

There are several cities (Athens, Herakleia, Argos) surrounded by mountains, which provide the defense bonus we would need in such a war. I've actually managed to successfully use artillery before to weaken a city's defenses prior to attacking (in the case of Hoplites, this would help). A war with Greece would probably come in the mid-Middle Ages, prior to cannons but after we get knights. Getting a few good-sized stacks onto those mountains, backed up by artillery, we could weaken their defenses enough to be able to take them with minimal casualties.

Mycenae also has a mountain adjacent to it, and is very close to Timeline and Del Monte (two cities that will most likely become major military production cities in the future).

[GePap]

I think an attack into the greek heartland will be difficult- a campaign to secure the ivory coats and the area between Ephesus and Rhodes would I think be best as a starter- BUt we must keep geopolitics in mind- aftre the next two wars, we might not become #1 in the graph, but will in reality be number one in strenght- which will mean trouble for us diplomatically- we will have to think of possible greek alliences with our current or future neighbors, with Germany and Rome both potential enemies, and I think we would go at this war alone. Thats why I think limited objectves will be best, since war with Greece is various turns in the future, by which time Greece may settle down and begin building up.

[adaMada]

What if, instead of a long offensive, we were to undertake a quick, thrusting attack. It would fragment our front, but might be more productive than a more sustained attack. The way their empire is now (not that that won't change), we could go up by Chicago, take the size two city nextdoor (Name starts with T and is long, but that's all the detail I can make out ) and then grab Athens. Though that wouldn't work if they made many more cities in that area, we could do something of a similar strike, taking their capital and other major cultural and economic centers, and then suing for peace -- overall, weakening them quite a bit.

I don't know if it's even possible, but in a much later war, we could probably build up a ton of units, put em on boats, and circle the entire contenent -- that, however, would be a major undertaking, and it'd probably just be easier to march our troops streight up.

One last note -- any plan of this sort would probably leave us without a viable supply line, so we'd have to hit hard enough to ensure we can get peace, and we'd have to have enough forces there to last out for a while should we be unable to -- as such, it doesn't seem like a good plan for now. I think, however, that if we could avoid the mountain ranges on both sides of Greece, we'd be much more effective. On the other hand, if we could take those mountain ranges, they could become very lucrative production cities, and might be worthwhile in that aspect.

Just a few random thoughts -- I know it's too early to start detailed planning, but if we had to start planning for a war now, this is how I'd be thinking...

-- adaMada

[Shiber]

Call me crazy but I think that if the Greek island is discovered to be quite large we could attack it first. By then we'll have ships with a transport capacity of 4 units and my guess would be that those cities will be lightly defended, so 4 knights would be sufficient.
Basically what I'm proposing is this: if Greece establishes 3 towns or more on that island (and that's a big if, since we still don't know if it's large enough anyway) we could send a transport there with 4 knights and attack their towns, which will probably be very lightly defended. Once we have their 3 towns we would probably be able to sue for peace and get another small continental city as well as some gold/tech.

Pros:
* A VERY cheap war. One transport ship and four knights should prove to be enough to take three island towns.
* The war should be quick so we won't suffer much from war weariness (assuming that by then we switch to a new government type).
* No Greek counter-attack force against our attacking units.
* Easy to defend borders. We can't expect the other Greek island towns to counter-attack, but the Greeks will surely attack our continental cities. However we'll have strong border cities by the time we attack, and besides, defending our own cities is much easier than defending newly-captured cities like in a regular war.
* A nice start against Greece.
Cons:
* The attack will not cripple their military production much (surely they're not building military units on the island and then transporting them back to coast).
* Unless we're lucky and the Greek island towns will find luxuries or much gold, those cities won't be of much use to us in the near future, not even as a front for the 2nd war.

Comments and suggestions will be appreciated. I'm still toying with this idea.

[Inverse Icarus]

Those cities would be very corrupt.
It's a long boat ride around Abananaba Minor to get boats there.
We'd go through enemy waters, we may have to withdrw (setback or sink).

I think a conventional war is best, but I'm open to suggestions. good ideas here.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by UberKruX
Those cities would be very corrupt.
It's a long boat ride around Abananaba Minor to get boats there.
We'd go through enemy waters, we may have to withdrw (setback or sink).

I think a conventional war is best, but I'm open to suggestions. good ideas here.

Regarding corruption: we'll switch government types eventually. We'll also have to move the palace and build a forbidden palace somewhere eventually. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that we move them to somewhere that would benefit those towns, I'm just making a point.

The boat ride is long, yes, but there are other possible routes. For example, if we can settle in ivory coast we can shorten the boat ride. As for entering enemy waters, by the time we set sail we'll be able to safely traverse sea squares. I was counting on it.

Anyway, it was just a crazy idea. I didn't expect that anyone would actually support it.

[Captain]

If a war with Greece is to be "successful" in achieving what we want, we either need to take a lot of cities, or take a few, very important cities - destroying their productivity and culture per turn lead.

Number one, if we take Athens, we're gold. That will hurt them really bad in every way. Expect huge losses when we attack, unless we can divert their troops somehow (??). Fast movers are essential to avoid them rushing extra defenders.

In order of significance, we need to take:

1st Priority
Athens (culture, production, central)
Sparta (production, central)
Thermopylae (gateway city, future benefits)

secondary targets
Argos (too close to Chicago, good land, need it to consolidate)
Mycanae (too close to us, dagger like thrust endangers us in future)
Heraklia (completes isolation of Delphi)
Ephesus (northern gateway)
Anything north of Thermopylae (good land, but will be relatively new and weak)

tertiary targets
Pharsolos (gateway to Greek isles, good land, but far, across the mtns, not a major threat yet)
Delphi (hole in centre, but isolated, jungle ridden)

Gravy targets
The other cities on the other side of the mountain range and on the island


We will need several forces if we want this quick. We'll also need to go in with overwhelming force, much much more than what we have in the last two wars.

In order of attack, we should start our major Army A (14 knights, 4 pikes) with Thermopylae (should fall without too much trouble as we can hit it within one turn of declaring), then Athens (10-12k, 3p, within 3-4 turns), then Sparta (4-6k, 2p, within 5-8 turns). with this rolling attack, their borders will fall back and we can use their roads to push ahead. don't wait to heal unless absolutely necessary. If we can get to a mtn tile, we can push our knights ahead of the escorting pikes. leave the pikes to block a counter on the recently captured cities.

Simultaneously, use a second small Army B1 (4 knights, plus pike) to take Argos. (1-2 turns)

Small Army B2 to take Myceana. (1-2 turns)
Converge B1 and B2 on Delphi if sufficient survivors remain.

Small Army B3 to take Ephesus or other northern cities. (3-6 turns)

Total: 26 knights minimum, 10 pikes for primary and secondary targets. We can probably get Pharsolos or Heraklei or Delphi in a peace deal. Probably 2 cities at least. Estimated time to produce: 50-80 turns of concentrated effort from end of French war. Length of war: <10 turns. Losses due to haste (not healing) offset by gains in avoiding more rushed defenders.

Hopefully the French will buffer us, but Paris should be on guard. We may lose Rheims but that's acceptable. Perhaps 2-3 pikes should be stationed in every French city on that road, esp, if our iron is only in France. Other cities don't need to defend much. Army Group B1, B2, B3, can also be used to deflect any Greek attacks on former American lands or on Timeline City.

If we don't go for secondary targets, we can reduce B armies to 2 knights just to provide defense against a Greek attack.

The above analysis does not consider the effects of other civs getting involved.

[ManicStarSeed]

First lets get a RoP signed with france. This will get us access to the Greek heartland (Athens/Sparta).

Build 2 or 3 large stacks (2-3 pikemen 6-8 knights and 3-6 catapults).

Position one at the athens border, and the other two (or one) near chicago.

Declare war with Greece, get France allied with us. Hell the Germans might be helpful, but might be too strong to help in the way we need them.

With France as our allies, greece will pulverize them while we decimate greece.

The Greeks will not be strong enough to keep the easy pickings that are the french and we can take those cities as well.

Once we decimate athens, launch another attack from chicago, greece althouth kicking french arse will never be able to keep up.

The two stacks fro chicago can split for a northan branch and a southern branch.

We can keep reinforcments coming from the south to press the "pokey bit" from two directions.

I know that these ideas are sketchy, but it is a basic framework. I will be glad to take this further.

Mss

[ManicStarSeed]

Position one at the athens border, and the other two (or one) near chicago.

Let me change that...

Using RoP
I would put ...

1 stack outside of Athens
1 stack outside of Sparta

use a third stack from chicago to cut off the protrusion into our rightfull territory. The invasion will continue with help from the spartian invasion stack.

This only would take 5-6 cities if all goes well.
I would suggest a fourth stack to press towards the ivory coast to increase our gains.

The only weakness I see is a counter attack from the east. The hope is that the counter attack would be dispersed by the french.


ohh BTW

I say call it "Operation Jackal"

Mss

[adaMada]

Mss,

After we attack France, I really doubt they'll give us an ROP without a serious amount of money on the side, at least for a hundred turns or so, and we can almost forget about a military alliance with them...

I'm 'reactivating' this thread since I think it's an important issue, even if this specific thread is eight days old -- the information contained within still applies.

-- adaMada

[History Guy]

It does not seem to me that the Greeks are now much of a threat. The Persians are indeed much more of a threat in my opinion, and I would say, sirs, not to get overexcited when it comes to war. If we have to have a war, sirs, would it not be best to strike at those who really serve as a threat right now, the Persians, who are close to having the iron they need for the Immortals to go into battle fully equipt? I say, sirs, that too much warmongering is unhealthy, and if there must be war, it must be with those who serve more of a threat, and indeed, we can't very well go after both the Persians and the Greeks before the former gets their iron, as then Apolytonia will be overrun, it will be in effect a dead nation, and I would rather lose everything I have here in the city of Apolyton than to see something as horrible as that occur.

If you want war, choose to attack those who really serve us as a threat. Anything to the contrary, now at any rate, is folly.

[ManicStarSeed]

Originally posted by adaMada
Mss,

After we attack France, I really doubt they'll give us an ROP without a serious amount of money on the side, at least for a hundred turns or so, and we can almost forget about a military alliance with them...

Yeah you are probably right. But do you think that is a poossible way can"win them over" in time for an attack on greece? (say in 30 turns?) If not, Would it make sense to overrun france all together to begin staging for greece? I know that it would depend on the early sucess of the campaign. The luck would have to hold up to make it work. I know we do not really want a prolonged war.

Originally posted by adaMada
I'm 'reactivating' this thread since I think it's an important issue, even if this specific thread is eight days old -- the information contained within still applies.

-- adaMada

Thanks, I was beginning to feel likre a real thread-kill

Now is the time to look towards this future, because once we hurt France, we will need time to recover, build build build (infrastructure) and then mass another army. If we plan it carefully, I bet you that we can have the RoP and alliace in less than 40 turns. I hope we will be so ahead of france, they will be happy to help us.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by History Guy
It does not seem to me that the Greeks are now much of a threat. The Persians are indeed much more of a threat in my opinion, and I would say, sirs, not to get overexcited when it comes to war. If we have to have a war, sirs, would it not be best to strike at those who really serve as a threat right now, the Persians, who are close to having the iron they need for the Immortals to go into battle fully equipt? I say, sirs, that too much warmongering is unhealthy, and if there must be war, it must be with those who serve more of a threat, and indeed, we can't very well go after both the Persians and the Greeks before the former gets their iron, as then Apolytonia will be overrun, it will be in effect a dead nation, and I would rather lose everything I have here in the city of Apolyton than to see something as horrible as that occur.

If you want war, choose to attack those who really serve us as a threat. Anything to the contrary, now at any rate, is folly.

I absolutely agree. Here's what I think we should do (this is based on an idea I heard about a week ago, I don't remember who suggested it though):
Send a settler ASAP (if we don't have any spearmen available to send with him then send him unprotected, as this has to be done ASAP) and make him settle on the tile that contains the iron Persia is about to acquire (or if they will expand into that tile by the time we get there, the tile next to it).
Once we settle, give the town to the English. It won't be of any value to us since it's far away from our palace and is stuck between Persian and English territory but giving it to the English would mean preventing Persia from acquiring iron in the near and maybe far future. Heck, Persia and the English might even go to war over it.
Other than that, giving the town to England will improve our relations with this civ and we might be able to get some gold in return, but the main objectives of this move will be the ones mentioned above.

[Captain]

If you want war, choose to attack those who really serve us as a threat. Anything to the contrary, now at any rate, is folly.

exactly. I have said the same for a long time, but we do need to have a threat assessment for EACH civ and a PLAN for each civ. This is a good planning thread, but just because we have a plan, doesn't mean we have to carry it out. We should always have several plans.

The threat assessment I had hoped for was something that would factor in primarily [b]PROXIMITY, Current Relative Military STRENGTH, SIZE, Military Production Capability, Anticipated FUTURE STRENGTH, Attitude, Relative Cultural Strength, plus, of course, ALLIES and their threat assessment.

Example: The Greeks are close, near even, large, higher, potentially higher, polite/annoyed?, stronger?, none.

(I didn't check, that's just made up.)

[OPD]

I remember reading a post in a strategy thread (I think by Sir raplh) about attacking the greeks with a warrior early on so that they get their GA while still in REX and so get almost no benefit as prodution is limited by pop.

we don't a war with them but perhaps if we get them into the war on france/US one of their Hopites might be attacked.

Although we don't know how many of thier cities are building settlers/workers and maybe if left alone they won't ever get a GA.

[DAVOUT]

Many interesting ideas.

This is an arrangement of most ideas expressed in the above posts :

- main objective : reduce the strength of the Greeks by taking Thermopylae, Athens and Sparta
- secondary objective : reduce the Mycenae salient by taking Argos and Delphi
- last objective : adjust our borders by taking Herakleia.

Roads requirements :

- from Chicago through the mountains toward Thermopylae
- from the road between Chicago and Del Monte to Argos
- from Rheims to the border toward Sparta

Main stack (from Chicago) : 4 piquemen, 10 knights, 5 horsemen
- Assault on Thermopylae : 4 piquemen, 6 knights
- Pillaging roads and mines around Athens then Sparta

Second stack (from Rheims) : 4 piquemen, 8 knights
- Assault on Sparta

Third stack (from Del Monte) : 2 piquemen, 4 knights
- Assault on Argos

Reinforcement could arrive smoothly thanks to the roads.

Peace treaty : ask for Mycenae and Delphi, but Ephesus would be nice instead.

[Captain]

if we road to thermopylae and our knights stack is big enough, then thermopylae to athens is only 2 turns.

take the city, the cultural radius is ours. so we can use the road without penalty, right?

If, during the same turn, we shift the remainder of our knights stack through the city, we can have them in place for an attack on athens by the second turn, right (ending two tiles from athens). Knights have 3d, I think, so they'll be as safe as if they were stacked with pikes so moving ahead isn't too dangerous, right?

If they have 3 defenders, that means we'll need at least 6 knights. We should go in with 10 to Athens. And take the city immediately.

Then we need not pillage anything, unless we want to cut the roads from Sparta and Corinth to delay a counterattack. But since we're taking the city, the shrunken cultural borders will be ours - meaning, without knights, they can't counter effectively.


The one problem is that they're now got Eretria and are building more Ivory Coast cities, that will make it more difficult to hit Thermopylae in one turn as their cultural borders will be blocking off the access route I'm thinking of.

If it gets any bigger, we won't be able to hit the capital for at least three turns then, giving them plenty of time to counter and buildup -meaning we'd need an even bigger force.

[DAVOUT]

I think that some units could block or delay the blitz you plan, but I could be too pessimistic. We engage a lot in such a campaign, and I cant imagine that the field will be totally empty, so the horsemen would clear the way, or at least scout. With Thermopylae, Argos and Sparta taken early, and the production of Athens reduced by the pillaging, the assault on Athens would not be delayed much, and possibly undertaken with more forces.

[History Guy]

Shiber's plan is solid. I support it. Does anyone else wish to support this plan?

[Panag]

hi ,

we should wait a bit with them , ....

and look at this again in 40 turns or so , ...

have a nice day

[adaMada]

Originally posted by History Guy
It does not seem to me that the Greeks are now much of a threat. The Persians are indeed much more of a threat in my opinion, and I would say, sirs, not to get overexcited when it comes to war. If we have to have a war, sirs, would it not be best to strike at those who really serve as a threat right now, the Persians, who are close to having the iron they need for the Immortals to go into battle fully equipt? I say, sirs, that too much warmongering is unhealthy, and if there must be war, it must be with those who serve more of a threat, and indeed, we can't very well go after both the Persians and the Greeks before the former gets their iron, as then Apolytonia will be overrun, it will be in effect a dead nation, and I would rather lose everything I have here in the city of Apolyton than to see something as horrible as that occur.

If you want war, choose to attack those who really serve us as a threat. Anything to the contrary, now at any rate, is folly.

I totally agree with this statement, and have always been in favor of 'dealing' with Persia quickly.

Having said that, it can't hurt to have some plans about the Greeks too, especially when taking a few of their cities could enlarge our empire so much. As for the Persians, there are other threads about what to do with them , and I'm strongly in favor of Shiber's plan (reasoning for that being in the threads on it ).

Basically, I agree that Persia's a bigger threat, but we've got threads about that and how to stop it -- let's still come up with a plan for the Greeks, and who knows? Maybe we'll have a chance to use it sometime...

-- adaMada

[Panag]

hi ,

, we could wait until we have some 20 or so cav units , ....if they dont have cav , ......then we get them on a silver plate , ....

have a nice day

[Kickbooti]

Here is my modest assesment.

While the Persians may be a threat, our border with them is easy to defend. With roads connecting our cities, knights as a mobile reaction force, and plenty of jungle and mountains in the region, I believe that any persian threat can be containted. Or, if difficult, is worth containing since any conquest of Perisa would give create a long border with England far from our centers of production.

I think that thier expansive nature and geographic proximity makes Greece a bigger (if less agressive) threat. Coupled with the fact that after France is dealt with and America is eliminated, conquest of Greek cities will not put us in meaningful contact with any new threats.

With that assesment, my sugestion is as follows.

Greece is too big to take in one bite. I think a quick, savage, crippling blow sterngthening our position and weakining their future development is best.

We should make Sparta and Argos our primary targets. This would a) deprive Greece of horses, depriving them of knights/calvary in the future. It would also cut off their expansion into the basin. We may be able to gain Delphi and/or Mycenae through peace treaty, or, after defending Sparta our army could turn eastward and take them.

Eritrea could be a secondary target, cutting the Ivory coast off from the capital (although a new city on the coast would likely be necessary).

After a Greek war, I would then recomend a time of internal development and consolidation. I think developing our southern border would be necessary to protect against incursions from the sub-continent. A government change for tech advances and cultural development would be advisable as well.

But the Greek colonies in the Great Basin would be welcomed additions to our empire. Persia can follow when cavalry makes distance less of an issue.

Respectfully,

Kickbooti

[wervdon]

I agree with Kickbooti Taking their horses is a must. Id take athens to though to deprive them of culture making a flip back of sparta and argos less likely.

[wervdon]

Oh and how much of an effect is their great wall going to have? None if they dont have any city walls built, but if they do, wouldn't that make the hoplites 6 defense?

[Shiber]

The Greek are very different from the French. We can cripple France's production by simply taking Orleans, Rheims and Marseilles. Greece has towns with a large potential for production in the North, East and West.
A quick strike will be the way to deal with the Greek in our first war, but unless we take Sparta and Argos, thus depriving the Greek of horses, it will not cripple Greece's military production substantially enough to make the 2nd war any easier.