Who else is dissapointed that there'll be a culture flipping option?

[Galvatron]

Originally posted by Zachriel


You may want to ask your friend for a copy of his book. Also, keep in mind that Clausewitz is often blamed for providing the theorectical underpinnings for the devastation of Europe, including Germany, in the two World Wars.

Well as I'm a friend of him I have a book even with his signature on and please address to him like he deserves it and that's: VON clausewitz I think this is just a matter of good behaviour to salute the greatest thinker and theoretic ever lived.

Yes I've heard these complaints to of saying: von clausewitz provided the ground for the mass-destruction in the two world wars I've to say the following:
You can't blame a man which has nothing to do with the outbreak of the wars. WW I was triggered due to imperialistic tendencies and WW II due to Germanys expansionist policy that's it. He just wrote a book over the nature of war and began to create some scenarios but he didn't declare war to anybody. The responsibility for this one is clearly only in the hands of the leading faction of states.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Galvatron
Well as I'm a friend of him I have a book even with his signature on . . . . . . The responsibility for this one is clearly only in the hands of the leading faction of states.

. . .

On-topic, you never responded to Clausewitz's assertion that "THE RESULT IN WAR IS NEVER ABSOLUTE. The conquered State often sees in it only a passing evil, which may be repaired in after times by means of political combinations."

Sounds a lot like culture as depicted in Civ.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Somebody made a humorous remark (in another thread) about Coracle saying:

"I think Coracle is a script"

...probably trigerred by words like "culture flipping", "Firaxis", etc.

ROTFL!!

yeap but that doesnt cover the feature to ignore replies

there must be some if condition in the code to check if there is already a reply or a maximum number(probably that number is 2) of replies in the thread

it's probably like the civ3 ai. while you're taking it's cities, it is making settlers and sends them out to all sorts of directions trying to survive

[Zurai001]

Originally posted by MarkG
it's probably like the civ3 ai. while you're taking it's cities, it is making settlers and sends them out to all sorts of directions trying to survive

That would make it a virus. There we have it guys, proof that Coracle is a virus!

[Coracle]

Originally posted by Zurai001


That would make it a virus. There we have it guys, proof that Coracle is a virus!

And you are an a-hole.

But then cheap personal attacks from idiots defending the stupidities of Civ 3 have gone on for eight months.

[Coracle]

Originally posted by MarkG
see tiberius? coracle is on to other threads....

i think it's like Memento(the film). Coracle remembers to check only the threads he posted in in the last hour.
after that, it's all gone from his memory....

No, I check ALL the threads in the vain hope that a meanigful response on the topic will be found.. I just refrain from getting into insulting personal attacks and flame wars to this give you another lame excuse to bansih me. And you as a moderator should be embarrassed to be actually participating in one. It wasn't I who refered to you as a Firaxis "sycophant" once, but it sure seems to fit. Personal attacks have been permitted continuously here against those who criticize Firaxis since December.

[Coracle]

Originally posted by MarkG
and of course coracle is nowhere around to answer back....

You want my e-mail address? Get it from Ming. I don't live on these boards, and I try to avoid the personal insults and flames you permit against me to not give you the excuse to banish me again.

But send me e-mails with the link to any and every post you want a reply to. I guarantee you will always get a response. Guaranteed.

[Coracle]

From MarkG

btw, in addition to being stuck to the same answered arguments, you also seem to be stuck to using the ip address to access the forums. please do so from this url
http://apolyton.net/forums

Who gives a rat's ass what IP address I use to access the forums, and why would they care? My ISP tells me I have a dynamic IP address every time I log on. And who cares about that either?

[Coracle]

Originally posted by MarkG
Tiberius, dont try to argument with Coracle. It's not like he will answer back....

Galvatron, so because the game is not 100% war war war, it's ruined? go play some red alert then....

No, it's like he knows if I answer in kind I will be unjustly banished again for an excessive time period.


Let us keep this simple for the Firaxis apologists.

NEITHER GALVATRON NOR I HAVE EVER DEMANDED "WAR WAR WAR". I have always said culture, politics, economics and other factors are important. I have said CULTURE FLIPPING is a crock historically and in the way it is implemented in game mechanics, that the result of poor playtesting.

I have also made it very clear (which you conveniently missed or ignored) that CF as in Civ 3 promotes GENOCIDE, MASS MURDER, and the extermination of neighboring civs - which is not only barbaric beyond anything in history, it makes for tedious games in which every single enemy town has to be wiped out to avoid CF.

So it is FIRAXIS that in fact promotes "war war war".

So you have it backwards again. Firaxis is promoting war by its bizarre and non-historical CF mechanics.

Firaxis ALSO promotes "war war war" by its absurdly low strategic resource rates which force civs into wars with each other for that iron or coal tile, even though those resources were never that rare. Wars can also be made more likely by one civ trying to cut off another from a resource they are trading for. All that unless the game is modded.

The irony is in its PC "Culture" obsession Firaxis has made war MORE likely in the game while making it LESS fun and more tedious than in Civ 2.


Finally, on the other matter, I am a lot less likely to respond to your smug and smarmy put down posts of me owing to their tone. So I'll get to them when and if I get around to it. As I said, send me an e-mail if you want to be sure of a response.

[Coracle]

From MarkG

two months later i'm replying to the same argument by you

let's see if you try to reply this time

* MarkG turns back time to June 4th 2002

quote:

quote:

in over five years of debate about Civ 3 after Civ 2 came out NO ONE ever asked for Culture Flipping.

beyond the fact that you must be the only man on earth to have participated in ever civ-related discussion in every possible way(forums, usenet, mailing lists) the last 5 years, check out the following

ethnicity model
http://apolyton.net/civ3/suggestion...t/radical.shtml

suggestions for rebeling cities due to unhappiness or religious reasons by Jonathan Cedrum and Mieke Meijlink
http://apolyton.net/civ3/suggestion.../c_conc04.shtml

Your sarcasm aside, after poring through all the stuff on those pages - the precise quotes you did not bother to paste for us - I see nothing that asks for what Firaxis gave us. I do see a whole lot of stuff Firaxis left out that people DID want, such as more influence of religion which was more important than nationalities for most of history.

I see nothing on those sites that asks for the ridiculous Firaxis Culture Flipping model in which:

1. Huge garrisons vanish without a trace and with no warning neither taking a population point off the town/city nor even putting it in disorder.

2. Cities have populations with "nationaliities" millennia BEFORE there was such a thing as nationalities or national "culture" (as Galvatron brilliantly discovered). Culture/nationalities is really most valid only by the time we get to the Industrial period.

3. Towns/cities can flip back owing to the proximity of the enemy capital - even if that capital is the only town the other civ has left!! Happened to me, and it happened to Alexman (see his thread in the Strategy forum). This is especially absurd as capitals in Civ 3 hop from town to town with no penalty as soon as the capital is captured.

I could go on, but the point is I see no one ever asking for what Firaxis gave us - something poor in realism and in game mechanics.

"Razing", a cousin of CF, is yet another unrealistic example that promotes mass killing and "war war war".
That is what Firaxis and Civ 3 DOES, not what I want. I didn't see anyone ask for Civ 3 razing in which a single damaged unit can make a city of millions vanish leaving not even a pollution tile.

Enough on this.

To those who know nothing and care nothing about history and reality; who do not see the great irony of CF actually PROMOTING killing and war, well, enjoy yourselves. At least I can turn it off in PTW, if I ever get PTW.

[notyoueither]

Good job Coracle. About time you stood up for yourself.

BTW, Mark will likely not ban you for arguing with him personally. I have, and half the people in OT have. It gets kind of heated sometimes. I've never seen him ban someone for it. Try to keep it civil though. He will turn uncivil language back upon the user in a debate.

Not flaming others is probably a good practice to maintain.

BTW, I apologize for the post you PMed me about. You might have left your PMs on so you could receive the response. You are correct, you have been the brunt of some abuse here abouts, but I'm sure you had some fun earning it.

PS. The option to turn off flipping is absolutely required for some scenarios based on historical eras.

[jsw363]

Originally posted by Coracle
2. Cities have populations with "nationaliities" millennia BEFORE there was such a thing as nationalities or national "culture" (as Galvatron brilliantly discovered). Culture/nationalities is really most valid only by the time we get to the Industrial period.

Coracle-
Many interesting points, but I wonder why you think that culture is most valid after Industrialization. The Ptolemeys conquered Egypt and imposed Greek culture upon the people. Didn't the Romans borrow from Greek culture? Didn't Ceasar distinguish between the different types of Celtic culture (Belgae, Aquitani, Galli)? I don't understand why you think that culture only developed after the industrial revolution. People clearly identified themselves as Spartans, Athenians etc. long before the industrial revolution. They had national identities (including languages, arts, literature, histroy and science) all their own. Why is this invalid?

I will agree that there was a hyper-nationalism in the years preceeding WWI, but this doesn't discount the importance of culture in past millenia.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by jsw363


Coracle-
Many interesting points, but I wonder why you think that culture is most valid after Industrialization. The Ptolemeys conquered Egypt and imposed Greek culture upon the people. Didn't the Romans borrow from Greek culture? Didn't Ceasar distinguish between the different types of Celtic culture (Belgae, Aquitani, Galli)? I don't understand why you think that culture only developed after the industrial revolution. People clearly identified themselves as Spartans, Athenians etc. long before the industrial revolution. They had national identities (including languages, arts, literature, histroy and science) all their own. Why is this invalid?

I will agree that there was a hyper-nationalism in the years preceeding WWI, but this doesn't discount the importance of culture in past millenia.

I agree with these points. Surely people throughout time have felt a connection with their home and their people, not just in recent times. Whether or not this is "nationality" in the modern sense is a rather meritless argument on semantics. Maybe you would rather it be called ethnicity, or what?

Another easy example: The Hebrews/Jews.

Or please tell me if I'm wrong, that these people really didn't care who oppressed them or that they belonged to a distinct group of people.

[MarkG]

coracle, i'm glad you're finally communicating. sort of anyway

"a-hole"
"idiots"
"participation in insults"
"firaxis sycophant"

even if you think i insulted you(by quoting monty python?), are there no other ways to respond than to insult back?
dont you have the will to keep yourself from insulting others? it's possible you know...

Who gives a ********* what IP address I use to access the forums, and why would they care?

let me make it more clear to you and then perhaps you'll stop swearing(btw, if you keep on swearing like this, you'll get a ban)
you posted a link http://64.246.32.51/~admin1/forums/s...threadid=58421 showing that use our(not yours) IP address(64.246.32.51) instead of our domain name(apolyton.net)
i asked you use the domain name instead

No, it's like he knows if I answer in kind I will be unjustly banished again for an excessive time period.

please show me where he insulted you in the post i responded to(22/8/2002,#1231222)

I have also made it very clear (which you conveniently missed or ignored) that CF as in Civ 3 promotes GENOCIDE, MASS MURDER

not ignored, replied to. still waiting for a reply back and i dont have the time to do your job in finding the thread

I see nothing on those sites that asks for the ridiculous Firaxis Culture Flipping model in which:
1. Huge garrisons vanish without a trace and with no warning

noone suggested otherwise

neither taking a population point off the town/city nor even putting it in disorder.

rebellions?

Culture/nationalities is really most valid only by the time we get to the Industrial period.

answered by jsw363, asleepathewheel

3. Towns/cities can flip back owing to the proximity of the enemy capital - even if that capital is the only town the other civ has left!!

no proposed model can have that kind of detail planned out!

"Razing", a cousin of CF, is yet another unrealistic example that promotes mass killing and "war war war".

once again: in civ2 you could starve cities to death. that's mass murder too, right?

[XarXo]

This all for a feature in a game WOW, when I had my last great/unique discussion with MarkG was for a stupid interview with Steve Mariotti.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Coracle
2. Cities have populations with "nationaliities" millennia BEFORE there was such a thing as nationalities or national "culture" (as Galvatron brilliantly discovered). Culture/nationalities is really most valid only by the time we get to the Industrial period.

Maybe you can tell us then what were the crusaides for? Because as far as I know religion is an essential part of a nation's cultural identity. But I suppose Galvatron hasn't discovered it for you, yet, right?
IMO you are confusing "nationality" with "nationalism".
nationality: people having a common origin, tradition, language, religion, etc
nationalism: Devotion to the interests of one's nation; the belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals; the desire to achieve political independence for your nation.

"Razing", a cousin of CF, is yet another unrealistic example that promotes mass killing and "war war war".
That is what Firaxis and Civ 3 DOES, not what I want. I didn't see anyone ask for Civ 3 razing in which a single damaged unit can make a city of millions vanish leaving not even a pollution tile.

You've posted not once that you want (and I quote you)

I have also asked many times for a situation where cities or towns SURRENDER (or have a chance to) upon the approach of a huge already victorious invading force.

supporting this idea with the tactics of mongols, who indeed realized such things. What you don't know or ignore, is why were entire towns surrendering to the mongols? What do you think, because they were so charming, or what? Because if they didn't your beloved Genghis Kahn and his warriorsburned down the entire city, razing the building and massacring mercilessly all men, women, and children, that's why. If they were surrendering and cooperating, the mongol rule was surprinsingly benevolent; etc etc.

Check it for yourself, if you don't believe me.

Don't come here with arrogant phrases like

To those who know nothing and care nothing about history and reality ...

if you know nothing about history.

Edit:
-adding definitions for nationality, nationalism

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Coracle
Firaxis ALSO promotes "war war war" by its absurdly low strategic resource rates which force civs into wars with each other for that iron or coal tile, even though those resources were never that rare.

It is amazing how you come here every time to show us your ignorance. Otherwise you should be aware that among the most important causes of wars in history (the competition for power, population pressure, militant religion, nationalism, etc) one important role is played by the competition for resources.

BTW: I never start a war for resources (though that might be a mistake). I always trade for them and I almost always win. But you still have no idea how to play civ3, don't you?

[Caliban]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Otherwise you should be aware that among the most important causes of wars in history (the competition for power, population pressure, militant religion, nationalism, etc) one important role is played by the competition for resources.

The MOSt important reason for war is ENVY.

And CivIII perfectly simulates this:

You think: The enemy has nice wonders/large cities/strategic islands/technologies/resources!

You think: THESE SHOULD BE MINE!

P.S.: Don't call me a militarist, I am just a good observer...