All you ever needed to know about FACTORIES

[Dukovsky]

Hello again, I tahnk Denchire and Molitieve for teching me all these skills and I want you newbies(like me ounce) to know this as well.

Now to begin where...

First off, many may consider sanitation more important then Industrialization, but, I have found that even with sanitation, a city that is 12 pop and producing 100+ shields is more efficiant and MUCH less polluting then a city with 20 pop producing less then 30+ shields. A factory only contributes 4 polution, and 1 polution for every 30+ shields or so, if you add it up, it would be less polutng to make a factory, and, even with iron works, it may still be less poluting thne a hospital giving a lot of gfrowth, but very little production. This is because most cities that reach 20+ size have only growth tiles, little production ones, this means you can only invest the extra civs for a small amount of science and gold which a factory would have you producing a massive amount of units fast, abd with th Iron Works, you could be producing calvary and riflemen/infantry in but a few turns. Also, I have tried going for just the hospital, it was extremly hard catching back up to the AI even though I had large metropolises, but, their production bar;y reached out over 30+, so hence, I could not produce very many units, and I was lacky in military. Although, going for hospital first can mean two things, you either have such a gap with the AI you need not worry, or, you are desperate for production and are taking the wrong way.

Now, on to factories, when you get industrialization, cancle most of the non-needed projects your cities are building, put them all on factory, if you are in war, turn all the cities behind the line son to factory production and leave a few cities to make units, and switch them when the other factories are done. It may be discouraging at first when making your first factories, because they will ussauly take 15-25 turns to build, try chopping trees, and telling your laborers to work on hills and mountaines with mines. Ounce yuor fist factories are done, it is your choice to make coal plants or not, ussaly, I build them, but because the added polution they make, you might just want to stick witha factory.
When your factories are done, you will see the emence production you now have, after industrialization, go for hospitals, they will increase that production even more, and, now, if you go to war, you will be able to pump out veteran units (with a barracks of course) very quickly and efficiantly.Building new city imporvements will also speed by like nothing before, you can (on average) build tanks in about 4-8 turns, and 3-6 turns with a coal plant.

For newbies, it may be very discouraging at first to star seeing polution popping up around your cities,( I know it was for me) and you will notice for the first time that the little sun start popping up in the right hand corner. But do not worry, it will take quite some time for the sun to get bright enough for global polution, and the first warning signs of global polution is when it says "global polution turned grassland into plains".


For those of you who hate polution and absolutly fear it like an enemy, there is no releif until you get into the modern age, but do not worry, unless the AIs get into the industrial age with you, you should not have to worry.WHen you make factories or hospitals, be sure you have a few workers handy, so yuo can clean up the city polution, having it "hang around" by your cities can really impare their production and growth possibilities, if you are an industrial nation, you can clean polution in three turns with one worker, two turns with two, and 1 turns with three. Keeping about three-six handy for that should go a long way in keeping polution under control, just remeber, when you get into modern age, go straight for pollution checkers, expeccialy mass transit, pop polution can add up VERY, VERY quickly, a pop of 20 can produce almost what 5 factories would, see the difference?

Well, that is about all you need to know about factories, just try it, and see what you think is better, hospitals V. factories, "Go Production, gogo, nah growth, staystaystay!"

Till' next time, IEN KOUF

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dukovsky
Now to begin where...

indeed

First off, many may consider sanitation more important then Industrialization, but, I have found that even with sanitation, a city that is 12 pop and producing 100+ shields is more efficiant and MUCH less polluting then a city with 20 pop producing less then 30+ shields.

Pollution is not the main thing why you need industrialization before sanitation, but building the universal suffrage is. Further, with factories ready, hospitals are much faster build, so a nice tactic may be to build a worker or a settler when your city is size 12, build a factory afterwards, build another worker if the city has grown to size 12 again, build a hospital, and add those workers and settlers back into the city. This will help you in two ways: first the RRs will be much faster build, further it will give you a jumpstart, with extra people and production.

One note, though: your comparison is a little off: a factory will only provide 50% more production, so a 30 shield city will only give 45 shields, not 100. If you want 100 shields cities, start from good places (hills), and mine and RR everything. This will be a lot better than building a factory.

A factory only contributes 4 polution, and 1 polution for every 30+ shields or so, if you add it up, it would be less polutng to make a factory, and, even with iron works, it may still be less poluting thne a hospital giving a lot of gfrowth, but very little production.

Where did you get this info? I thought a factory produced 2 pollution, not 4. Further, I'm quite sure it doesn't produce extra pollution for more shields, however all the mines and RRs are causing more pollution.
A hospital doesn't produce extra pollution, but the people are, but this also is true for cities below size 12 (only less then bigger than size 12 cities of course)

This is because most cities that reach 20+ size have only growth tiles, little production ones, . . .

Huh? My size 20 cities have little growth tiles, the population primarily comes from added workers, and waiting long enough. Big cities will give more science and tax, but in my case the size 20 cities are the most productive ones as well

Also, I have tried going for just the hospital, it was extremly hard catching back up to the AI even though I had large metropolises, but, their production bar;y reached out over 30+

going for hospitals first simply is the wrong way of researching, the only viable situation would be if you want to trade the tech to the AI for industrialization. (so if you're behind in tech). The AIs will always start researching factories first. I found the best way to research things the following: first beeline for industrialization, after that go for the ToE, research replacable parts and/or sanitition while you're building the ToE, and use the 2 free advances to get to Hoover. Building Hoover will be easy like this (no AI will be able to catch up), and this will provide you with hydroplants everywhere, so you don't need to bother with the polluting coal plants. If you do it right, you can do it so that you first build factories everywhere, after which you build hospitals and get the hydros at more or less the same moment as well.

Now, on to factories, when you get industrialization, cancle most of the non-needed projects your cities are building, put them all on factory, if you are in war, turn all the cities behind the line son to factory production and leave a few cities to make units, and switch them when the other factories are done. It may be discouraging at first when making your first factories, because they will ussauly take 15-25 turns to build, try chopping trees, and telling your laborers to work on hills and mountaines with mines.

Indeed, when you get industrialization, each and every city with more then 5 shields switches to factories. This will mean that you will get factories everywhere in 6-40 turns (good, RRed cities should have more then 8 shields, the best ones should have ~40 shields without factories).

Forget about the unit building cities, if you are at war and can't stop building units and switch to factories now, you better ask for peace and get back to it once your factories are in place. Further, it pays off to have some cash laying around so you can rush the factory in the best producing city, set this to a palace prebuild on the next turn, and save shields for the ToE.

Ounce yuor fist factories are done, it is your choice to make coal plants or not, ussaly, I build them, but because the added polution they make, you might just want to stick witha factory.

Forget about the coalplants, there is only one situation where you build those, and that is when someone else has built Hoover, or you have multiple continents and want to have power plants on the other continent as well (Hoover is limited to one continent).

. . . after industrialization, go for hospitals, they will increase that production even more

As said above, don't go for sanitation yet, aim for the ToE first. After you researched that, you can go for sanitation (if you really need to, I find replacable parts more importantly), as long as you time the completion of the ToE so that it will give you atomic theory and electronics.

About the rest of the comments on workers: the most lazy thing to do is automate some of them, they will take care of pollution. If not automated, try to tackle pollution in masses: If you can spare 3 industrious workers for a pollution on flat land, it will mean it can be worked again the next turn. Going with 3 workers to 3 tiles in 3 different turns is better then putting one worker on each of the 3 tiles, it will give the tiles back more quickly.

A nice effort, Dukovsky, I hope you don't mind I contradict you in several places

DeepO

[Lord Merciless]

If your civ is industrious, under democracy, or has tons of workers, pollution is really not a big deal.

[player1]

Coal Plants are good in those cities in which you plan to build industral age Wonders.

If you plan to get Hoover Dam, you should not build Coal Plant in other cities.

[alva]

Do take in mind though that factories might bring your income down somewhat.
If you build +50 factories remember they do have an upkeep of 2.
Therefore you might want to wait awhile with your smaller/less producing cities. Unlike DeepO said .
Other then that he's spot on :b

I don't think i ever buld 1 coalmine, unless your are followinging player 1's tactic, there are quite useless, and should not be bothered with.

[Catt]

Of course I fully understand that everyone saying coal plants are worthless or largely worthless is not asserting that that is the case in every possible game circumstance . . . but I'd just like to share the news that in 2 of my last 6 or so games (other than AU games) my entire map (all random settings) had not one river on it (some fresh water lakes, but not many). In a 3rd game, the map had all of 2 rivers on it - not on my starting landmass, of course.

I found coal plants to be of tremendous value in these circumstances (admittedly very rare circumstances, as I can't ever recall a game before without a river somewhere - makes the rush to Electronics a lot less imperative ). I also found some new appreciation for the absurdly expensive solar plant as an actual city improvement rather than solely a pre-build device -- without industrious workers, anything to reduce pollution is welcome -- and the scarcity of fresh water limited nuclear plants to only a handful of cities.

Catt

[Ethelred]

Where did you get this info? I thought a factory produced 2 pollution, not 4. Further, I'm quite sure it doesn't produce extra pollution for more shields, however all the mines and RRs are causing more pollution.

Two for the Factory and two for all the coal plants he was building, which may be why he thought it was four for the factory. Plus one for each population point over 12.

Mines and railroads don't contribute to polution. Sure do in the real world though.

[Moonsinger]

Factory causes too much pollution; therefore, I rarely build any factory or the Iron Works.

If your civ is industrious, under democracy, or has tons of workers, pollution is really not a big deal.

Even if you clean up all pollution within the current turn, many of your beautiful grasslands and floodplains would still turnning into desert.

[Ethelred]

Factories do not cause too much pollution. What the heck are you doing to have such a problem? Automate some worker with SHIFT-P or even SHIFT-A and let them worry about the clean up.

Global warming is a VERY minor issue in general. What you don't want is Coal Plants when you should have the Hoover Dam instead. It's population that causes most of the pollution you see. One pollution shield for each person over 12 even if you don't build a factory which is only two polution shields.

[jshelr]

"Forget about the coalplants, there is only one situation where you build those, and that is when someone else has built Hoover, or you have multiple continents and want to have power plants on the other continent as well (Hoover is limited to one continent)."

For myself, I don't agree 100% because I'm normally not dominating the tech race given my limited skills and the level I play on and I can't count on Hoover or ToE. Ya gotta have the electric power. I do love those few games were I am ahead far enough to get US, ToE, and Hoover. The temporary feeling of god-like ability is great.

Moonsinger
Is it really true that there is a connection between pollution and grassland turning to desert?? It's always attributed to global warming, which, I suppose, could be due to factorires, etc. Where did you find that one??

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by Ethelred
Factories do not cause too much pollution.

The factory is almost double the pollution icons in my city (yes, I have the Hoover Dam). After I sell off the factory, those pollution icons cut in half right before my eyes.

PS: I'm talking about the major cities of size 25 or above before I discover the Mass Transit.

[Ethelred]

Global warming IS due to pollution although apparently not due to the orange slime itself but the number of pollution shields, FOR ALL civs, not just yours. Considering the huge populations the AI civs go for they are often the major contributer.

[jshelr]

thanks for the pollution info. I take it that this means we can't reduce "global warming" much by cutting our own pollution. Sort of George Bush's position.

[Ethelred]

We can cut it a bit anyway. The other thing you can do is trade the two anti-pollution techs to the AI. They are usually willing to pay a lot for it if they can. They need it bad and often don't build factories till they have the recycling tech.

The other thing you can do is wipe out all the polluters. That works real well and factories make this anti-global warming strategy much easier. The sooner the game ends the less the world can warm up.

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by Ethelred
Global warming IS due to pollution although apparently not due to the orange slime itself but the number of pollution shields, FOR ALL civs, not just yours. Considering the huge populations the AI civs go for they are often the major contributer.

Yes, that's one thing I don't like about Civ3 (not a complain, just a little dislike). Someone else in the world is pumping out a lot of pollution but my grassland is turning into desert. I would like it better if the tiles around the city that is responsible for pollution should be the first to go.

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by jshelr
I take it that this means we can't reduce "global warming" much by cutting our own pollution.

That's exactly why we need to go to war with them.

[alva]

Originally posted by Moonsinger

Yes, that's one thing I don't like about Civ3 (not a complain, just a little dislike). Someone else in the world is pumping out a lot of pollution but my grassland is turning into desert. I would like it better if the tiles around the city that is responsible for pollution should be the first to go.

Pollution doens't stop at a country'ss borders. That's the whole point

annoying, yes but it is realistic

[alva]

Originally posted by Catt
but I'd just like to share the news that in 2 of my last 6 or so games (other than AU games) my entire map (all random settings) had not one river on it (some fresh water lakes, but not many). In a 3rd game, the map had all of 2 rivers on it - not on my starting landmass, of course.


Catt

I know what you saying, had this in my previous game too. 1 small (about 3 tiles) river in the whole wide world
But does'nt this make hoover dam even more powerfull.
In my case there was only one city that was actually able to build Hoover (since you need a river to build it). And it just happened to be in my new aqcuired territory
Needless to say this was end of game, too powerfull!!

[Catt]

Originally posted by alva848


I know what you saying, had this in my previous game too. 1 small (about 3 tiles) river in the whole wide world
But does'nt this make hoover dam even more powerfull.
In my case there was only one city that was actually able to build Hoover (since you need a river to build it). And it just happened to be in my new aqcuired territory
Needless to say this was end of game, too powerfull!!

We think alike. In my example (the third game), there were two AI cities that were able to build Hoover - I let one of them do so while I . . . uh . . . prepared to visit this charming wonder of the world. I then took that city (and the other cities on the continent, of course ). A GL-enabled palace relocation to that landmass ended the game for all practical purposes.

[Crostoneman]

Originally posted by Moonsinger


That's exactly why we need to go to war with them.

Ah yes, the tearing down trees to make room for the tanks, butchering of the local animals to feed the troops, tearing up the grasslands from the massive amounts of vehicles and troops moving through, and the massive amounts of spilled blood, oil, and spent ammunition all in the name of ecology.

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by alva848
Pollution doens't stop at a country'ss borders. That's the whole point

annoying, yes but it is realistic

That's true! Therefore, the city that causes massive pollution and its surrounding city should be turned into desert first.

[Moonsinger]

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by Crostoneman Ah yes, the tearing down trees to make room for the tanks, butchering of the local animals to feed the troops, tearing up the grasslands from the massive amounts of vehicles and troops moving through, and the massive amounts of spilled blood, oil, and spent ammunition all in the name of ecology.

The end does justify the mean.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Moonsinger


That's true! Therefore, the city that causes massive pollution and its surrounding city should be turned into desert first.

Global Warming is just that, global. Since the primary cause of the hypothetical process is CO2 in the atmosphere its not a local effect. Other kinds of pollution can be fairly local but not CO2. That spreads around rather fast.

Actually the main cause of desertification is domesticated animal, particularly sheep and goats. If human herded animals eat too much of the local flora it tends to lower the amount of locally produced rain and it decreases the ability of the soil to absorb it where the plants USED to be.