Science funding should be Increased!

Ksim3000 · August 15, 2002, 18:45

I think It would be a good Idea of spending a few extra coins In Increasing our research. Research Is our lifeblood and would be financially good for the future especially when other Civs would like to pay 13+ just for a single piece of Technology! I say Increase the funding!

GodKing · August 15, 2002, 18:58

I would say no at this time, as I believe it will prove cheaper for us to purchase our technology in the near future. Later on, I must agree, as we advance it will be harder to aquire. I say we wait until post war with france and then see where we stand.

Apocalypse · August 15, 2002, 19:04

No. It is far more cost effective to let someone else research something, trade them money for it, then sell it to all the other civs.

Ksim3000 · August 15, 2002, 19:05

Godking has a good point but If we do end our war with France In the future, they may demand quite a hefty fee where as If we had more Technology then them, we have a better chance of coming to a peacful terms due to France will want our Technology.

Apocalypse · August 15, 2002, 19:08

The war with France should be pretty one sided for us. They'll be paying us greatly just so we'll stop, assuming we won't just wipe them out.

Ksim3000 · August 15, 2002, 19:14

If the French have Allies, It could get dangerous for us. We need Technology aswell to upgrade our military and If we did Increase the budget, we could have a very strong army which would make us stronger then the others. Also when we need resources, we have to keep up In Technology so we know where they are so we can reach them before our rivals do. I am only asking for a 10% Increase.

GodKing · August 15, 2002, 19:16

I think they will probably keep 1/2 of their cities or so, but then we will have to focus on ourselves.....(or perhaps the americans).

The hard part is that the further on any tech tree we go, the more expensive the tech gets. I would hate to see the day we are paying 1000's of gp for a tech, because the AI will not be keeping much around for the other civs to pay to trade it to us. Sure, we may get a couple hundred back from whomever we sell it to, but I think we will loose in the long run. For now, however, this is the way to go.

All is, of course, IMHO.

Apocalypse · August 15, 2002, 19:17

If the French bring in someone we'll fire back with bringing in Greece with the money we horde. BTW, it is very unlikely that the next tech we research ourselves with a 10% increase would even provide something that would really contribute to the war effort.

Ksim3000 · August 15, 2002, 19:21

Well the other reason like I mentoined before Is resources. If we get those resources before our oppoments, the better we will be. We need Technology to be able to do this.

Inverse Icarus · August 15, 2002, 19:22

If France gets an ally we get more defense spending

Ksim3000 · August 15, 2002, 19:29

Exactly! I say that we need that money to be put Into Science!

OPD · August 15, 2002, 19:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Ksim3000
Exactly! I say that we need that money to be put Into Science!

Last time I checked the science rate (which was a few turnchats ago) even if we increased science rate to 100% it wouldn't make us get Feudalism any quicker. Perhaps when our cities grow a bit more and perhaps get libraries this will become a viable option.

Ksim3000 · August 15, 2002, 19:42

I didn't say 100%, I was thinking more 60% or 70%. Even If we had the same number of turns, we would have less turns when we reach our next research. We could also build Libaries slowy over time which would save gold.

Apocalypse · August 15, 2002, 19:46

Libraries are fine. I am saying that we need the money for the war right now. Having a new tech slightly faster won't affect the war on France.

Kuciwalker · August 15, 2002, 19:47

The point is that increasing the science rate at all won't make us research faster.

adaMada · August 15, 2002, 19:51

For right now, this is def. the best way to go -- at least until the war with France. I actually tried upping science funding just to see what it would happen (since I didn't actually do it or end the turn, I'm pretty sure that's not counted as playing ahead -- not to rekindle the debate here, but the President could also do it and tell the numbers to the rest of us, and it's not like I changed anything, so...) and didn't get any worthwhile result as to discovery times. That will probably change in the near future as our nation becomes more developed, and then I'd def. support higher science funding.

I'm pretty sure the test I did above is totally ok, and I def. think it should be allowed, but since I'm having a ping of "maybe not"s right now, if anyone feels very strongly that I'm wrong, please let me know and I'll edit this post removing the information until I've checked the other stuff about this and asked around a bit.

Just my two bits...

-- adaMada

GodKing · August 15, 2002, 19:52

Ksim3000 - take a look at the download. It will not significantly benifit us to increase science at this time, it will hurt us by not bringing in gold.

Once we build up our homeland with some libraries, courthouses to control corruption, and lots of roads to help bring in the gold, then we can slowly raize it.

ps - as you are new among us, the download is available in the 'current game report' topped thread, however, there is no playing ahead. Go ahead and download, move the sliders around and see the change in results. Just do not move any units or hit the turn button, etc.

Kuciwalker · August 15, 2002, 19:59

AdaMada - it's not playing ahead. The rule is that you can do anything that is not permanent.

Shiber · August 15, 2002, 19:59

This is all why we should enter a building period after the French war. We need to build up science output, culture and income.
Note: that doesn't mean we can't eliminate America in the mean time. We can achieve that with some of what will be left of our attack force after we sign a peace treaty with the French. The Americans will not pose a challenge to our swordsmen.

GodKing · August 15, 2002, 20:07

Shiber, that assumes we have any left after the war....

Shiber · August 15, 2002, 20:18

We've got 8 swordsmen and 4 archers in the attack force (not counting the 1 or 2 spearmen which should depart this turn). The French have a smaller military according to the foreign advisor and they'll be taken by surprise. In addition to that, we don't intend to continue this war for long, we'll probably end it as soon as we get two French towns and Paris and then sue the French for another town and some gold.
Considering all this there's an excellent chance that we'll have enough survivors to assemble an attack force that can completely eliminate America within 10-15 turns from entering their territory.

adaMada · August 15, 2002, 20:28

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker
AdaMada - it's not playing ahead. The rule is that you can do anything that is not permanent.

Just checking on that -- I thought it was, but wanted to cover my bases

. Thanks for the confirmation though.

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber
This is all why we should enter a building period after the French war. We need to build up science output, culture and income.
Note: that doesn't mean we can't eliminate America in the mean time. We can achieve that with some of what will be left of our attack force after we sign a peace treaty with the French. The Americans will not pose a challenge to our swordsmen.

I agree. As soon as the war with France is done, we should take America out of the game so no one else does (even if it means building new offensive units). We should then go into a period of economic and cultural expansion -- our cities are atrociously undeveloped. Maybe get a wonder or two, etc etc... if we do that, and if we're building up military all the while, we could streamline our civ for science, and then shoot for calvery, going to war basically as soon as we've got enough...

-- adaMada

GodKing · August 15, 2002, 22:23

We have 8 swords. Plus at home we have 2 or 3 warriors close to the front that can be upgraded shortly and sent in as backup (surprised Uber isn't already doing that). The 5 archers are week attackers (only a 2) to the 2 defence of the spearmen. The AI will probably have 2 spears in each city we are likely to attack. It will also poprush.

Looking at the odds - I say the swords should take paris quickly. Loosing perhaps one or two of their numbers. Then we loose another for garrison as we march on to the next target. take that and loose 2 more and more to garrison.

The archers I give odds that they will take their first target, but with very high casualties. 2 or 3 dead, 1 wounded. There is only one spearman ready to move with the archers, unless we leave timeline undefended.

Tass has a newly built spear, but it would be better if we fortified it, upgraded the warrior in tass, and send the new sword in as reserve.

I personally hope we can also gain more than 4 cities and some gold. hopefully we gain Paris, Chartres, Orleans, Rouen, Rheims & Marseilles. Both Marseilles and Paris are needed for the wine. Orleans has horses, so do not count on it in negotiations.

All cities but Rouen have a pop of 2 or more - thus allowing poprushing. They do have iron, so bewair the enemy swords. Taking paris will not cut off their supply of iron (although taking marseilles as well will significantly stop the majority of cities from it).

We do not have a quick and easy fight as we did against the americans. I doubt that our army will be in any form to attack for many turns after the war against france.

Inverse Icarus · August 15, 2002, 23:01

The problem i believe will be the fact that after we blitz Paris and Orleans, the Froggies will send swordsmen in (3-5 or so). I'm pondering what to do immediately after the assault.

i suggest we rush walls in Paris asap and fortify for a few turns.

notyoueither · August 15, 2002, 23:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Ksim3000
I didn't say 100%, I was thinking more 60% or 70%. Even If we had the same number of turns, we would have less turns when we reach our next research. We could also build Libaries slowy over time which would save gold.

In a word. No.

Research does not pay in the early game with this many civs on Emperor in 1.28. It is cheaper to buy tech than to research it (in total commerce). Until you have libraries AND universities in your bigger cities. Then, you crank the science and go for the lead. Til then, set it to 0 and buy from the other civs.

Donal Graeme · August 16, 2002, 00:05

As the future Minister of the Economy, I can tell you that it would be far more beneficial at this point to create a large budget surplus, and mass a huge treasury reserve. The only way we can effectively research any tech faster would be at 100% science rate, which would be insane in our position, we shouldn't do it. I say, get as much money as we can, for as long as we can. Money is flexible, we can use if for anything, inlcuding getting Republic in the future which will help us out in researching.

Inverse Icarus · August 16, 2002, 01:27

/me shudders at the mention of a republic

GodKing · August 16, 2002, 08:42

GodKing is shuddering with UberKruX. Democracy maybe sometime in the future.

Shiber · August 16, 2002, 08:49

If we let our population grow and turn a few towns into cities we could switch to Monarchy without losing too much free support.

OPD · August 16, 2002, 09:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber
If we let our population grow and turn a few towns into cities we could switch to Monarchy without losing too much free support.

Monarchy is the way of the future

But it's a good job were religious

BTW I take it the Pres is in charge of government discussions/polls?