Yes - It's More AI CHEATING!

[C Chulainn]

My Persian neighbours are technologically advanced but vulnerable to a military attack, for the reason that they have only one source of iron and one source of saltpetre. I decide to attack them and immediately cut them off from these by pillaging the roads. It's now simply a matter of attacking their cities, defended only by spearmen, with my knights...
But I discover the Persians cheating in two ways:
Firstly, they upgrade some of their spearmen to pikemen. This is impossible - they have only a small amout of gold which wouldn't pay for it (and they don't have Leo's Workshop - the Zulus do) They aren't levied under the republic rules either, because they're veterans, not conscripts. The AI has simply given itself free upgrades.
Secondly, they somehow manage to build a musketeer just in time for my massive attack on the key city of Sardis. With no saltpetre. The only Civ with spare saltpetre is the English, and checking with my foreign minister reveals the Persians have no contact with the English. The AI has simply given itself more free upgrades.
You may call this a moan if you like, but as far as I'm concerned this sort of cheating is inexcusable. I have a good, valid strategy, based on the rules of the game, which ought to pay dividends - instead the AI is cheating and punishing good play.

[kimmygibler]

This seems somewhat dubious. How do you know that the ai doesn't have enough gold to upgrade its units? It could be getting gold and using it on the same turn. For example from goodie huts, barbarians, or trade with other civs.

The musketman may have been started before you cut them off from saltpeter. If you start building a unit, loss of a needed resourse doesn't cancel the unit. Or there may be saltpeter underneath an enemy city. (Try right clicking on every city)

I've never seen this sort of cheat before there could be an explaination.

[vondrack]

Even if you cut your enemy from the strategic resources, they will be able to rush/finish units they started producing when they HAD the resource. What happened probably was that Xerxes rushed units in production. Could it be so?

[Coracle]

Yes, we know. The cheating has long been inexcusable in so many ways. It has all been posted. I especially hate teleporting settlers magically jumping across my civ and setting up towns on tiles they should not know exist.

The sneaky, insidious way the AI cheats is a major annoyance. If it didn't do so many dumb illogical things it would NOT have to cheat so much.

I think it's time Firaxis submitted a list of all AI cheats, with a way to turn them off. Just increase the combat results odds in the AI's favor to compensate, as Civ 2 did.

You summarized well our objections:

I have a good, valid strategy, based on the rules of the game, which ought to pay dividends - instead the AI is cheating and punishing good play.

Stop the cheating in PTW!!!

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by kimmygibler
Or there may be saltpeter underneath an enemy city. (Try right clicking on every city)

Or Shift+Ctrl+M and remove the cities. It's better.

[JohnM2433]

Not to aggravate you even more, but... if the Persians upgraded the spearmen after you cut off their iron supply, that's cheating too, as they need iron for the upgrade. Assuming that there isn't some iron hidden underneath one of their cities (check and see, just to make sure), in an unseen connected city/colony, etc.

In fact, the other stuff would be easy to write off as rushing, but upgrading without the necessary resource would quite clearly be cheating.

Then again, how are you sure that the pikemen were upgraded, and not built? Did you investigate the cities before and after the alleged cheat? Doing so would at least give us some idea of what is going on...

[C Chulainn]

Replies to the doubters:
1. I knew how much gold the Persians had because it tells you when you go to the negotiation screen.
2. There was no saltpetre underneath any cities; I used Civ Tools to check the number of resources just to make sure - 7 Saltpetre: I controlled 3, the English 2, the Zulus 1 and the Persians 1 (which I seized)
3. I saw the Persian cities with their defenders before and after the declaration of war. The pikemen all appeared instantly. Ka-boom.
4. You can't finish what's started if you no longer have the resource; you get switched to a more primitive unit (seen it happen). Rushing would have cost the Persians money, which they didn't have.

[FrantzX]

Your #4 is wrong. I know that for a fact.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by FrantzX
Your #4 is wrong. I know that for a fact.

FrantzX is right. #4 is incorrect.
You need the resource to START building a unit, NOT to complete the production (the same goes for RRs - if your worker starts laying a RR track and you lose coal before he's done, he will still get the job done.

[RedBird]

Originally posted by C Chulainn
Replies to the doubters

Do you have a .SAV (preferably from before when you started the attack) you can post?

[Mad Cleric]

Yes, I have seen the AI cheat.

When I was playing as the Aztecs on a one V. one game with the Americans on Monarch, something curious happened. When I looked at their city one turn befor I attacked with Swordsman, it said there was only a warrior, so, naturaly I thought "what can stop me?"
SO, I came in, and the pop of the city was only 1, and I thought that surely 3 swordsman could out do a warrior, even on a hill. SO, I moved them in and delcared war, something odd happened, I looked at the city, and there it was, a spearman, they had obviously pop-rushed it from a city with only one pop to begin with, now, I wish I could do thaT!

Well anyways, the AI can cheat you when you are making early ancient age attacks, that is why you have to use a two movement unit or they'll pop-rusha spearman from nothing.

[Mad Cleric]

Hm, when I started playing this game about three weeks ago, I consider almost every move by the AI a cheap one or a cheating one of the rules, but now, I have learned that the AI only makes a few rule infractions, it just irritates me when the AI pop-rushes a unit from a original pop of one.

[dexter4dxm]

perhaps they were building an improvement in that city, and when they saw attackers coming they switched production to a good defensive unit and already enough shields have been provided so it seems like it was rushed

[Todd Hawks]

Or maybe the city reached pop 2 and then the AI pop-rushed the spearman. Or it moved it in from somewhere else. Post a save game and we can check what may have happened (and if it really is inexplicable = cheat)

I've seen so many claims of the AI cheating but they are all very vague and there seems never to be a save game to prove it.

I myself have never seen the AI cheat like this. If the AI really cheated, it would do it more often and there would be more than just one or two lonely people posting some kind of weird AI cheat every few weeks.

The AI knows the map and maybe the position of your units but I don't think it cheats about production, research, combat or anything like this (apart from the difficulty level bonuses of course.)

[SABRA]

Is there a save .

[C Chulainn]

Okay, I'm satisfied that it is possible that the Persians may have switched production in several cities all at once to pikemen and by the most outrageous coincidence they were *all* sufficiently advanced in shield production that they immediately finished. We'll give the game the benefit of the tiny lingering doubt. But nobody has yet explained how they were able to keep on producing immortals and knights with no access to iron and musketmen with no access to saltpetre. That still looks like a cheat.
Remember these two salient facts:
1. Nobody had spare saltpetre but me and England and the Persians had no contact with the English.
2. Although I didn't actually use Civ Tools to count the iron resources, as I did with saltpetre, neither the Persians nor their neighbours the Iroquois had any iron at all. The Zulus did, but Persians did not have a port city anywhere near them which could have received the trade.

[Keeper of Hell]

Originally posted by C Chulainn
But nobody has yet explained how they were able to keep on producing immortals and knights with no access to iron

It is more than likely that no one has explained this because you have not mentioned it even once. If you had mentioned it prior to this post, I'm sure that anyone would have been happy to explain to you (again) that if the production of the unit is started *before* the necessary resource is cut off, production can be completed or rushed. As you have not grasped this concept yet and show no signs of being likely to grasp it any time in the near future, I suspect that this whole thread is rather pointless.

Edit: To address your #1: If the Persians had contact with another civ that had contact with the English, they may very well have traded for contact with the English right after the declaration of war. Keep in mind that unless Persia continues to produce units that require resources they don't have, it should be obvious that the units you saw being created were simply started before the resources were cut off. As to #2: What do you mean that the Persians "didn't have a port city anywhere near them"? Distance makes no difference as to whether the trade route is open. If both the Zulu and the Persians have harbor cities, no matter how far apart they are, they can trade.

[narmox]

And once again Coracle shows his utter lack of judgement, and his obsession with putting down firaxis and the game even when it's not logical to do so.

I agree with the others, and I've done it often myself, continuing to build a unit even when I didn't have a resource anymore, cause I started to build it when I had the resource.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by narmox
I agree with the others, and I've done it often myself, continuing to build a unit even when I didn't have a resource anymore, cause I started to build it when I had the resource.

With the expection of combat, EVERYTHING is caultated right at the begining of your NEXT TURN.


Remember, its a TBS game not RTS.

[C Chulainn]

Didn't take long for the Firaxis Gestapo to get here and start hurling abuse...
The Persians HAD NO CONTACT WITH THE ENGLISH. This was not a pre-existing situation, this was what my foreign minister told me when I noticed the musketeer appearing. There was no way for Persia to get hold of the saltpetre.
As to the Zulu iron option, Zululand was on my other border: the Zulus may have had Navigation, but the Persians did not and so could only have traded over my territory... whether this is a cheat or not is debatable - could a human player trade with inaccesible ports because the other civ has Navigation? What constitutes a "body of water"? Any continguous water, or is the map divided up into sections of water?
In any case, the iron is explicable, if we accept the latter, or the "iron under a city" possibility. The "switch builds" explanation doesn't work as well with saltpetre, though: if the Persians had had Gunpowder at the outbreak of war, why would they have built pikes and not muskets in all but one city?
Having thought a bit more, I now think this could as likely be a minor bug in the program as a cheat - it can't recognise that an AI civ can lose a resource as it can with the Human player: once they have had saltpetre, the musketmen will continue in production.

[Oncle Boris]

Originally posted by C Chulainn
Didn't take long for the Firaxis Gestapo to get here and start hurling abuse...
The Persians HAD NO CONTACT WITH THE ENGLISH. This was not a pre-existing situation, this was what my foreign minister told me when I noticed the musketeer appearing. There was no way for Persia to get hold of the saltpetre.

I have found Foreign Minister reports to be false at times. If you want to make sure he had no contact with the English, try talking to him and see if you can sell him "Contact with English"

[vondrack]

Originally posted by C Chulainn
Didn't take long for the Firaxis Gestapo to get here and start hurling abuse...

Easy, easy... you were asked for the savegame. You apparently have one, since you are able to tell us various details people ask for, trying to explain what you experienced. Unfortunately, there still is no savegame available... if you want a precise answer, post the save. I am sure somebody will find out.

Originally posted by C Chulainn
The "switch builds" explanation doesn't work as well with saltpetre, though: if the Persians had had Gunpowder at the outbreak of war, why would they have built pikes and not muskets in all but one city?
Having thought a bit more, I now think this could as likely be a minor bug in the program as a cheat - it can't recognise that an AI civ can lose a resource as it can with the Human player: once they have had saltpetre, the musketmen will continue in production.

1) Perhaps because they were able to finish pikemen on the following turn, if switching the existing production, unlike musketmen.

2) Again: a resource is necessary to start building a unit, it is not needed to continue building it or to finish it. This applies to both the human and AI players.

Post the savegames from the turn before you declared the war and from the following turn. Then, you will get precise answers (or, we may determine there really was a bug involved and may then submit the savegames and an error report to Firaxis).

[C Chulainn]

Alas, I don't have the savegame anymore; I cleaned them all off the HD when I retired from the game. What I should have done was open Civ Multi-Tools as soon as war was declared to see what Persia was building and so on. I'm still very dubious about all this being strictly within the rules of the game, though...

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by C Chulainn
Replies to the doubters:
1. I knew how much gold the Persians had because it tells you when you go to the negotiation screen.

It does no such thing. It shows how much they have available TO YOU at that very moment. Then THEIR turn comes up and they have more money and may even trade for more.

2. There was no saltpetre underneath any cities; I used Civ Tools to check the number of resources just to make sure - 7 Saltpetre: I controlled 3, the English 2, the Zulus 1 and the Persians 1 (which I seized)

They can still finish what they started. Note they upgraded to pike not musketmen.

3. I saw the Persian cities with their defenders before and after the declaration of war. The pikemen all appeared instantly. Ka-boom.

I doubt this happened as described. Post a save. I have been playing since the game came out. Its never happened.

4. You can't finish what's started if you no longer have the resource; you get switched to a more primitive unit (seen it happen). Rushing would have cost the Persians money, which they didn't have.

You most certainly can. I have done it many times. Just did again in my latest game when my coal ran out for a couple of turns. I was able to finish factories and even the rails my workers had allready started. I have done the same thing with units in previous games. You do NOT get switched to a more primitive unit. You only think you saw it happen considering that no knowadgable player has or will agree with on that.


Post a save from the turn before and tell us what you did so we can check and the we can explain what REALLY happened.

By the way have you patched the game. There are some strange things that can happen in an unpatched game. None of those things however.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Mad Cleric
Hm, when I started playing this game about three weeks ago, I consider almost every move by the AI a cheap one or a cheating one of the rules, but now, I have learned that the AI only makes a few rule infractions, it just irritates me when the AI pop-rushes a unit from a original pop of one.

That isn't one of the the AI cheats. It plays almost entirely by the same rules we do. It DOES know where resources will apear on the map even before they have the tech. It does seem to know what units you have in cities. Those are the only known cheats no matter how many times Coracle pops up to troll. Coracle has NEVER posted a save game to support his claims.

Its possible that the AI knows what you are reseaching as well but it may just be that the foreign advisor routine that we also have access to is suplying the information. It would be hard for the AI to trade without haveing a clue about what you can do.

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by Ethelred
That isn't one of the the AI cheats. It plays almost entirely by the same rules we do. It DOES know where resources will apear on the map even before they have the tech. It does seem to know what units you have in cities. Those are the only known cheats no matter how many times Coracle pops up to troll. Coracle has NEVER posted a save game to support his claims.

It knows the whole map, not just the resources, including the precise location of any building spots in and around your territory and the exact location of all your troops and noncombat units. It will navigate its settlers to city sites unerringly unless you place units to block potential build squares. If you do it will immediately turn and head for the next one even though it shouldn't be able to see your units since no-one has anything in range. Its ships are totally immune to sinking effects so it can colonise islands surrounded by ocean.

On the other hand, I'd agree with most of the posters here that the AI never cheats when it comes to resources or pop rushing. It is very efficient at switching its production immediately to military when it is threatened and it doesn't need to wait for a declaration of war. Just moving a significant number of units close to the border (and it does know where all your troops are) is enough to get its paranoia to kick in.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Grumbold


It knows the whole map, not just the resources, including the precise location of any building spots in and around your territory and the exact location of all your troops and noncombat units. It will navigate its settlers to city sites unerringly unless you place units to block potential build squares.

It will navigate those same settlers to places that I have ALLREADY blocked and they will turn back when they get within same visual range I have in the game. Because I have seen this happen I am sure they do not know the location of my units UNLESS they have a spy and steal my militarly plans with that spy. Something they don't seem to do.

If you do it will immediately turn and head for the next one even though it shouldn't be able to see your units since no-one has anything in range. Its ships are totally immune to sinking effects so it can colonise islands surrounded by ocean.

Well they don't turn back till they see in my games and I have seen AI galleys sink so you are wrong on that as well. You seem to be making the same mistake Coracle does on this. By the time you have the ability to cross the ocean with galleys you no longer have them. Hower the AI will still have the obsolete units so they will go to deep water as soon as it is possible. One game I still had galleys out exploring when I got the tech that the AI uses to do what you incorrectly label a cheat. I did the same thing as the AI does, except for the settler since the galley was too far away for it to come back to pick up a settler. I explored the middle of the ocean and even the polar caps with those galleys.

If I can do the same thing the AI can its not a cheat. Its right in the Civilapedia too that galleys CAN enter the ocean when the right tech is known.

[Grumbold]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I've blocked all open squares with slave workers and seen the settler/spear groups still some distance off but in my territory turn round. This is before espionage is possible.

The AI will also do anything to catch your workers, so you can experiment with "exposing" a worker at maximum move distance from their units. Even if they have to weave a convoluted path to get to them, which they would have to begin before they could spot the unit, they manage to do so. I sometimes use this to my advantage in the later part of the game to bait enemy units into places where they can be easily killed.

I've seen galleys in ocean before they had the tech and shadowed them to see if any of them would sink. I checked regularly to make sure I was still able to trade the seafaring techs to them. They didn't have them.

[Deathwalker]

The fact is the AI needs to cheat to stand a chance against most players But until the AI can be made more human it will have to cheat

[Ironikinit]

A lot of people have thought the same as you about the ocean-going galleys, Grumbold, but AFAIK it's always been a case of the AI civ having the technology, not cheating. If you can find an instance, post the save. It's not that most reasonable players really care if the AI cheats; as Deathwalker points out, the AI has to cheat to provide a challenge to experienced, competent players. The real issue is providing accurate information and countering misinformation so that players can successfully predict events in the game.

Many so-called "whiners" believe that those who correct them on these forums are in some way allied or emotionally attached to the company that makes the game in question (e.g. C Chulainn's "Firaxis Gestapo" statement). In some cases, that may be true, but generally speaking IMO, it's not so much supporting a company as fostering accuracy.

Thanks for reading.