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Old August 17, 2002, 12:33   #1
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population of city = #food resources?
Does anyone know the ratio of how much food = city growth?

I want to create a city of 7 million. So I am trying to figure out the total food output needed in the city’s surrounding squares to get it to grow to that level.

Thanks,

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Old August 17, 2002, 12:43   #2
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Re: population of city = #food resources?
Every citizen consumes two food. For a city to grow, there must be food surplus, doesn't matter how big (the bigger, the faster growth). After the per-turn surpluses accumulate into a certain treshold level (this threshold level progressively gets bigger as the city grows), the accumulated food is "used up" (half used up, if there is a granary in the city) and a new citizen is born. Does this help?
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Old August 17, 2002, 12:48   #3
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yeah thanks but...
I know how it works, just needed to know what the total output of the surrounding areas would have to be to get the desired population...

I am creating a scenario and other than guessing or sitting there watching the city grow..
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Old August 17, 2002, 13:13   #4
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u wanna know what the ratio of population points to number of people is.

i dunno
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Old August 17, 2002, 13:17   #5
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freakin guy


read your post.. I was like yeah.. exactly!!

"I dunno"

sheeshh.. why bother posting even!

Need to make a city 7 million large
the problem is 1 citizen equals more and more population as the number gets higher...
in the begining its 1 citizen is equal to 25000 population, then later 50000 and it keeps going up...

so where do you go?
if I take the 50000 figure, that means I need 140 citizens!!! 280 food output - thats insane!!!
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Old August 17, 2002, 13:25   #6
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i was just clarifying so ppl like vond wouldnt get confused

it seems a bit strange for the FIRST guy to be 250k, when in reality it would be closer to 5k
i'd have thought it would get larger the bigger the city got, to show the population explosion type stuff

nevermind
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Old August 17, 2002, 14:48   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flight
i was just clarifying so ppl like vond wouldnt get confused
Well, I really had troubles understanding the original question...

Let me see... my last Regent game ended up in an awesome situation. I had a big continent all for myself, full of really BIG cities. Here is a couple of numbers...

Memphis, 34 citizens, population of 5,976,000
Beijing, 31 citizens, pop 4,975,000
Bizen, 30 citizens, pop 4,680,000
Toyama, 30 citizens, pop 4,680,000
Ise, 29 citizens, pop 4,392,000
Fukushima, 27 citizens, pop 3,812,000
Satsuma, 27 citizens, pop 3,806,000
Kagoshima, 26 citizens, pop 3,540,000
Hyderabad, 26 citizens, pop 3,520,000
Asyut, 26 citizens, pop 3,558,000
Hakodate, 25 citizens, pop 3,300,000
Nagoya, 25 citizens, pop 3,271,000
Xinjian, 24 citizens, pop 3,031,000
Abydos, 24 citizens, pop 3,025,000
Nagasaki, 24 citizens, pop 3,024,000
Nara, 24 citizens, pop 3,013,000
Thebes, 24 citizens, pop 3,002,000
Yokohama, 23 citizens, pop 2,790,000
Kyoto, 23 citizens, pop 2,760,000
Shimonoseki, 23 citizens, pop 2,785,000
Pi-Ramesses, 23 citizens, pop 2,778,000
Izumo, 22 citizens, pop 2,565,000
Edo, 22 citizens, pop 2,554,000
Matsuyama, 21citizens, pop 2,354,000
Tsingtao, 21 citizens, 2,312,000
Tokyo, 21 citizens, pop 2,310,000
Elephantine, 20 citizens, pop 2,112,000
Karachi, 19 citizens, pop 1,959,000
Jaipur, 19 citizens, pop 1,959,000
Bangalore, 19 citizens, pop 1,946,000
Shanghai, 19 citizens, pop 1,929,000
Sapporo, 17 citizens, pop 1,575,000
El-Amarna, 17 citizens, pop 1,572,000
Osaka, 17 citizens, pop 1,560,000
Calcutta, 16 citizens, pop 1,408,000
Delhi, 14 citizens, pop 1,109,000
Bombay, 14 citizens, pop 1,102,000
Byblos, 14 citizens, pop 1,100,000
Alexandria, 14 citizens, pop 1,074,000
Suo, 14 citizens, pop 1,070,000
Heliopolis, 14 citizens, pop 1,050,000
Hieraconpolis, 12 citizens, pop 800,000

Oops... sorry for the long list, I was sorta thinking aloud, sorting things out for myself... it seems that every new citizen represents a certain extra percentage of population, something like 10-15% of the previous threshold level maybe... looking at the top part of the list, I would say that a 7,000,000 city would have 36 or 37 citizens...

Have something else to do right now, but I will try some number crunching later this night or tomorrow, if time permits... to see if there is an exact formula...

BTW, I would be surprised if there was nobody figuring the formula before, although I can't remember seeing it anywhere... can someone save me (and teturkhan) from unnecessary number crunching?
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Old August 17, 2002, 14:58   #8
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not sure of the formula but I got a good idea
I think your right, it is a percentage of the total, probably around 10-15% like you said.

Here are some numbers I was able to figure out:

12.75 million population - 50 citizens - 255 000/citizen
8.2 million population - 40 citizens - 205 000/citizen
4.65 million population - 30 citizens - 155 000/citizen
2.1 million population - 20 citizens - 105 000/citizen
550 000 population - 10 citizens - 55 000/citizen
150 000 population - 5 citizens - 30 000/citizen

You can see the pattern from this and figure it out...
(yeah it was the morning, mind as well of asked the question in a different language )
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Old August 17, 2002, 15:25   #9
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Population Box # = Population

Note : The "actual" population sometimes varies in relation to a given Population Box # by a few thousand citizens. Example: 1 = 48,000 & 2 = 40,000. Additionally, it may fluctuate each time you load a particular savegame. I do not know why that is, but I do know that it is annoying...

1 ~ 48,000
2 ~ 40,000
3 ~ 71,000
4 ~ 112,000
5 ~ 160,000
6 ~ 222,000
7 ~ 290,000
8 ~ 370,000
9 ~ 469,000
10 ~ 589,000
11 ~ 680,000
12 ~ 808,000
13 ~ 938,000
14 ~ 1,090,000
15 ~ 1,220,000
16 ~ 1,390,000
17 ~ 1,576,000
18 ~ 1,756,000
19 ~ 1,930,000
20 ~ 2,146,000
21 ~ 2,350,000
22 ~ 2,584,000
23 ~ 2,799,000
24 ~ 3,040,000
25 ~ 3,280,000
26 ~ 3,530,000
27 ~ 3,822,000
28 ~ 4,098,000
29 ~ 4,389,000
30 ~ 4,690,000
31 ~ 5,000,000
32 ~ 5,310,000
33 ~ 5,648,000
34 ~ 5,990,000
35 ~ 6,338,000
36 ~ 6,706,000
37 ~ 7,070,000
38 ~ 7,440,000
39 ~ 7,819,000
40 ~ 8,237,000
41 ~ 8,652,000
42 ~ 9,054,000
43 ~ 9,511,000
44 ~ 9,951,000
45 ~ 10,372,000
46 ~ 10,830,000
47 ~ 11,300,000
48 ~ 11,800,000
49 ~ 12,290,000
50 ~ 12,800,000
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Old August 17, 2002, 15:28   #10
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strange
yeah that is strange... my numbers are a bit off from yours..

still its very minimal - btw thats great you got it all worked out, should post it in the custom forum - very useful for people making mods, world history ones in particular...
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Old August 17, 2002, 15:33   #11
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Re: strange
Quote:
Originally posted by teturkhan
should post it in the custom forum - very useful for people making mods, world history ones in particular...
OK, consider it done!
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Old August 17, 2002, 19:34   #12
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thats kidna cool to know, thx DRoseDARs

glad i could help vond
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Old August 17, 2002, 20:10   #13
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There is an equation to calculate the population of a city from it's number of citizens:

Where x=no of citizens in city, the population=5000(x2+x).

So we find that for a population of 7000000 we have a population of 37 at it's nearest (7030000 in fact) which would require double the number of citizens to be able to feed it, ie, would require 74 food harvested from the surroundings.

So for the biggest city possible: we have a city surrounded by irrigated/railroaded flood plan with wheat, but 2 base square food. This gives us 3+1+1+2=7 per square. So total possible food harvesting is 7*20+2=142 food, which equates with a city size 71. If you managed to get a city of this size, the population would be 26 280 000, a pretty big city
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Old August 17, 2002, 20:14   #14
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Provost, would you mind helping me with my college algebra class this semester?
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Old August 17, 2002, 20:25   #15
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Hehe, never mind me, if you go to the OT, the place is full of the reincarnations of Einstein and Newton
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Old August 17, 2002, 20:30   #16
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OT?
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Old August 17, 2002, 22:34   #17
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The Off-Topic forum.

I'm good with numbers, as well as knowing a lot of abstract mathematical concepts, so if you have any questions, maybe I could help.

Thanks for giving us that formula, Provost!

Personally, I think the way population growth is set up in the game is silly. In reality, the amount of people required to do a job (work a tile) tends to decrease as time goes on, due to improving technology, while at the same time population grows exponentiallly until it starts to run into negative-feedback effects. At the very least, a citizen should always cost the same amount of food to produce -- larger cities grow faster, not slower, in absolute terms. Maybe this can be modified in the Editor, which I haven't really looked at much.
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Old August 18, 2002, 00:34   #18
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that is great!
this formula totally belongs in the custom forum...
Harrison, thats awesome!

thanks man.
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Old August 18, 2002, 01:11   #19
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Mistake posting - read next post.
its late
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Old August 18, 2002, 01:15   #20
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You believe this guy?
I was so impressed with Harrison's forumla I thought I would share with with people over at Civfanatics forum.

So I pasted his entire post over there at Civfantics, and you would not believe the heat I got from this one guy - check it out.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...threadid=29988
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Old August 18, 2002, 02:13   #21
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I posted in defense of you over on Civfanatics' Forum.
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Old August 18, 2002, 05:39   #22
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To be fair, i think the guy at CFC is asking for a link to this thread. Not simply a quote plucked from here. Although it doesnt sound like he even looked at the formula...
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Old August 18, 2002, 06:06   #23
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asking is one thing...
lot better ways to ask for the link than they way he did... and as you said, I don't think he even bothered to look at the formula - too busy discrediting everyone.
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Old August 18, 2002, 07:32   #24
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I feel flattered

All royalties payable to R. Harrison
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Old August 18, 2002, 12:19   #25
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Teturkhan,

unfortunately you have a recurring problem of throwing out information that you scrape up from other threads as if it were the gospel truth.

It loses its context with original discussion.

Posting a link back to this thread and then quoting the excerpt that was really valuable is what you should have done in the first place.

Sometimes it is so hard to figure out what you are actually trying to accomplish, it just gets frustrating when you begin to add up all the scattershooting posts.

Whining and posting deliberately disparaging comments about other users in separate message threads would be cause for banning if you continue to drift in that direction.

You did acknowledge that you got the information from others. That wasn't the issue. The issue was just extracting the part of the conversation that you felt was gospel without leading people to the information source so they could review the context and determine the validity of the concepts for themselves.

The only reason for questioning Harrison's formula as the gospel was that it included no reference to the food factors which have been demonstrated. No question that Harrison's formula was a good approximation.

When you discuss someone in a way that you think is behind their back, remember that all information is public. The quality of the content of your past postings does far more to record your profile than any number of posts whining about the way someone else may be trying to figure out what great social issue you may be trying to uncover in the next round or musings.

If you had mentioned that you duplicated the posting over on POLY and then were getting these feedback items there would have been no reason to question the source because we could have put it in perspective.
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Old August 18, 2002, 14:10   #26
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RESPONSE TO CRACKER
Teturkhan,

unfortunately you have a recurring problem of throwing out information that you scrape up from other threads as if it were the gospel truth.
************
I never claim that all information I post is the gospel truth, I merely throw it out there to promote discussion, in the hopes that it leads to something positive.


It loses its context with original discussion.
Posting a link back to this thread and then quoting the excerpt that was really valuable is what you should have done in the first place.
************
If the threads was significantly different in content I would have done that, however most of the information on both is pretty much the same. Think about it, why would I bother starting a new thread on both forums? It would be much easier to just give the link – but people asked for it the other way, saying they prefer one forum over the other so I complied.


Sometimes it is so hard to figure out what you are actually trying to accomplish, it just gets frustrating when you begin to add up all the scattershooting posts.
***********
The "Scattershooting" posts you accuse me of, is merely my attempts to juggle information back and forth. I think it’s important that as many people are exposed to the topic matter, more heads are better than a few.


Whining and posting deliberately disparaging comments about other users in separate message threads would be cause for banning if you continue to drift in that direction.
***********
I really don’t like the way you come across Cracker. The more you keep talking, the more miserable of a person you seem to me. Every time you post it becomes very obvious that you think you know the game far better than the rest of us. You are incredibly cynical and overly critical, and seem to be bent on discouraging people from putting forth ideas, concepts, maps etc. Just because you don't deem those things important doesn't give you the right to discredit others. You should change your alias to “Red Tape” because you got miles of it. Now regarding this talk about my posts justifying CAUSE FOR BANNING? Why? Cause I gave people an opportunity to read both threads? See what you wrote??? Man you crack me up Cracker, instead of realizing your way too aggressive in your posts and easing it up, you come in here and threaten to BAN ME, cause I linked this thread to the other! Truth of the matter is you’re a Forum Bully, and I’m exposing you as such, you don’t like it cause then people might get together and ban you


You did acknowledge that you got the information from others. That wasn't the issue. The issue was just extracting the part of the conversation that you felt was gospel without leading people to the information source so they could review the context and determine the validity of the concepts for themselves.
***********
As I said both posts were pretty much the same in content.


The only reason for questioning Harrison's formula as the gospel was that it included no reference to the food factors which have been demonstrated. No question that Harrison's formula was a good approximation.
**********
LOL LOL LOL, this is what I call a classic case of "damage control" (I have a better phrase for it, but under the threat of banning I will keep quiet). Everyone can see both threads, you were not missing critical information, you simply jumped the gun and once again came down hard on an idea/concept that someone else put forth, before really considering it with an open mind.

When you discuss someone in a way that you think is behind their back, remember that all information is public. The quality of the content of your past postings does far more to record your profile than any number of posts whining about the way someone else may be trying to figure out what great social issue you may be trying to uncover in the next round or musings.
**********
I am blinded by Red Tape!!! Arggg!!! I don’t talk behind your back Cracker, as a matter of fact I lay it out right where you post. I merely provided the link to the others in this thread, so Harrison and others here could have a chance to defend their formulas – stats against your zealous and premature dismissal.


If you had mentioned that you duplicated the posting over on POLY and then were getting these feedback items there would have been no reason to question the source because we could have put it in perspective
*********
Once again, the info is pretty much the same in both threads, you talk as if you read something in this thread that was considerably different than the other, but this is not the case. I think you lack people skills, and you would be wise to change your approach when you try to convey your thoughts and opinions to others. Pointing something out in a constructive manner is one thing but assuming you know what is better for everyone, and that your opinion is the only right one is something different.

You are the guy after all who claims to know what 99.9% of people want, think etc. That statement in itself is indicative of your personality.
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Old August 18, 2002, 14:51   #27
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Cracker, I can't really see your point...

Was it that difficult to ask for a link, if you were so interested in learning how the formula was created?

Also, I have noticed that it is rather rare that people post crosslinks between Poly and CivFanatics (even though it would be very logical to do so pretty often). I think there is a good reason behind... these two sites are sort of competiton, even if not fierce. Advertising one using the other is perhaps not 100% kosher.

Reading through this thread, you would also find out that the formula P.H. posted was apparently not a result of the discussion (or am I just slow in noticing things?). It was thrown here "as a gospel", as the data collected in the earlier part of the thread were very scarce and far from detailed. Provost actually knew the formula and as it did not interfere with the example data collected, we accepted it as a matter of fact.

So, I guess, you might wish to say "OK, I was little too fast to pull the gun out..." now and forget the whole thing. I can't see why should people be restricted in the way they post information in the forums, irrespective if it is here or at CivFanatics. If the info is incorrect, prove it and submit a correction. Tons of Civ3 related information have been discovered by progressively precising interim findings.

P.S.: BTW, Provost, where did the formula come from?
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Old August 18, 2002, 16:22   #28
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Vondrack,

I know the formula depends on at least three variables(pop points, food stored, and era or age of the city or some other factor) just based on the competetent posts of some of the high end competitive players in the CFC GOTM spoiler threads for game 5, 6, 7 and 8.

I also have tested to see if the population number that seems to be produced for Eye Candy effect has any effect on score, gameplay, or victory conditions. The eyecandy pop numbers seem to be a decoration function because conditions such as the 2/3rds of the world's population value that is used in domination victory seems to be drawn directly from the pop points number and not the calculated people population.

Again, the reason for focusing on the verbatim reposting of information is just that it perpetuates inaccurate prior postings without helping to find the real source. Issues such as "where did this come from" or "how did you get this answer" or was this answer from V1.07 or V1.29 are usually addressed in the thread.

I was wondering where Harrison's formula came from as well but was first focusing on where Teturk was dredging up this information.

Teturkhan's excerpting method just took these answers as the gospel and went schewing merrily along.

An endpoint of this discussion is really headed toward how to get a city population of 7 million people on a small rocky island like New York City or Tokyo. Since food does not transport in CIV3 there is a built in barrier to accomplishing what Teturkhan has really indicated that he wants to do in the big picture. A model that represents population centers as more than just a single city center may be more appropriate for how the game works even though this will give a permanent eyetwitch to the real world map perfectionists.
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Old August 18, 2002, 17:02   #29
JohnM2433
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Re: RESPONSE TO CRACKER
Quote:
Originally posted by teturkhan
You are the guy after all who claims to know what 99.9% of people want, think etc. That statement in itself is indicative of your personality.
Wow. Has he really claimed this? If so, could you say where?

Even if he is very smart, that figure seems a little high. Indeed, I think formulating an exact answer to the city population problem would be far easier than obtaining such an in-depth understanding of human psychology, and he hasn't even done that yet. Then again, it's a lot less important, so maybe he just hasn't had the time for it...
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Old August 18, 2002, 18:02   #30
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here it is:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...ight=teturkhan
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