Should Israel Have Been in Europe Instead

[Pekka]

Siro, Absolutely. Though this summer was quite hot in here too, and still is. Close to 30 celcius every day! But it's not usual. Or you could visit winter, if you wish to ski or do some winter stuff.

YOu wouldn't have to do guard duty here you silly man . Israeli soldiers would be here chilling, doing what they want, having their cabins etc. So that could be counter as a perk also. We'd get trigger time, and that would be good for us too.

Åland is a big ass island near us. It belongs to us, but they have their own flag, autonomy etc. They only speaks swedish, so we could just kick them there and you could have it for example.

[Pekka]

Oh yeah, I'm getting a vision now, it's clearer. You'd have Åland all by yourselves, as a Resting and Recreation area for soldiers and their families. You could naturally be in mainland too, but that would be nice place for them, having their own peace.We would rotate on regular basis, having our guys there for a while, and then rotate back. Or maybe just 50/50 all the time, with normal rotation.

We would get your technology for satellites and stuff, of course we'd fund it, and launch our own military satellite with your help. There would be automatic working permission etc if we come there and vice versa. Yep.

[Sirotnikov]

Hehe

let's start a site.

We have almost 40 celcius and around 80% humidity...

[Sirotnikov]

Forgger this is exactly my point.

CNN is completely incompetant, and the Palestinian spokesmen use it wisely to deliver their messages abusing inexact and lacking information.

And our spokesmen are worse at speaking than George Bush...

Except Nethanyahu, but he's rarely a guest.


Victims of Terror - you don't know the whole story behind that. We do.

There was culminating rage in Israel at many biased decision in CNN, spiking at a large terract event, where the CNN news (was it breaking or headlines i don't know) opened with broadcasting a piece with the relatives of the terrorist, before addressing the Israeli side, and the fact he actually killed 19 people in that day.

It's ludicrous. Instead of showing the main event - what the terrorist has done - murdered 19 civilians, they start out by preparing public opnion and justifying his act, by showing the terrorist's family and so on.

It's like if Israeli reports on 9-11 started with interviews of Osma explaining how America is evil.

Israelis also raged at a comment made by Ted Turner in his interview in Time magazine. Ted Turner was anti-Israeli in his remark, and Israelis feared it affects CNN's policy.

CNN was threatened to be cancelled, due to public outrage. (bbc is worse, but much less watched).

So they quickly arranged the Victims of Terror meant to be one week of clear Israeli bias. And that was it.

[Sirotnikov]

Oh, and they officially appologized.

[Heresson]

"Why part of Italy? The Italians didn't give up their Jews to the Nazi's until the government fell and the Nazis took over the country. Personally, I think East and West Prussia and maybe East Pommerania would have been good."
(Chegitz)

Poles didn't give their jews/Jews to Germans either. Why should this state be built on our territory?
Anyway eastern Pomerania=western Prussia.
There should be no Jewish state unless yYou'll find a territory where no-one else lives and no-one had lived
and that would be hard.

"Poles, Croats, Serbs, Romanians, Bulgarians, Hungarians and Russians all eagerly helped the Russians hunt down Jews"
(Whoever)

You mean Germans probably.
And You forgot other occupied nations, though I think putting us in the same row as German collaborants
is an offence. Poles, unlike all the nations above and nations in the west didn't give Hitler any SS brigade.
Of course it's because Poles disliked Germans not because they disliked Hitler only, but still it counts.
There are examples of selling Jews by poles as well as there are examples of selling Jews by Jews.

"From what I remember from my history lessons and other readings, Germanic tribes came from the east, and spread to the north and west, before the Slavs. Germanic tribes (Cimbri et Teutoni) terrorized the Romans already 105 BC. The Slavs entered the region of Poland and eastern Germany (roughly the area of the former GDR) around 500-800 AC"
(Adalbertus)

That's interesting German theory that was supposed to give them a reason for Drang Nach Osten.
According to it, all Slavice population that soon afterwards occupied half of Europe was supposed
to came out of Prype? swamps which never had any significant population. In other words, it's rubbish.

(Sorry for quotes)

[Ned]

A, The whole of Liberia, not just the areas of American dominance, are "American." The people who were there live in an American styly-republic. English is the National Language. Protestant Christianity is the religion of the Americans.

Islam, or the ancient African religions, are the religions of the majority, however.

So, when you said,

"If they said "All is ours", they are aggressive colonizers. If they were able to get more or less incorporated in their old tribal structures and taught the rest how to create an effective state they are not. "

Under your criteria, the Americans were (are) aggessive colonizers. They did not adopt the old tribal ways, but imposed American democracy on the continent.

The American refugees, who settled in Africa, their homeland, are not in any way dissimilar to the Jews of Israel returning to their homeland, Israel, Samaria and Judea.

What is different is the attitude of the Europeans. Rather tha celebrating the event of the return of the Jews to their homeland after millenia of persecution by none other than these same Europeans, we find that the Europeans are insisting that the Jews are in the wrong, that Zionism is racism, etc. But when African-Americans return to their homeland and do the same thing as today's Jews do, they are applauded, or at least there is not European wrath at the Americans.

The double-standard of the Europeans could not be more clear. The Europeans are anti-Semetic to the core.

[Pekka]

Nah, you're just anti-euro!

[Ned]

Pekka, Well I first began reading these posts in the off topic forum, I was indeed appalled by the bulk of European attidudes and posts.

America and Israel today have no greater enemy than Europe.

I am convert from an idealist view of Europe. I am definitely today anti-European. I had NO idea how racist the Europeans actually were. I will, from now on, be among the most vocal opponents if Europe ever agains needs anything from the United States. I would immediately freeze military cooperation, for example. Get the f&ck out of our way or declare war. Your choice.

FU!

Siro, regarding your reaction to CNN. CNN and most of the rest of American media are leftists. The leftists in the United States are increasingly like the racist Europeans. It is a wonder that the official Democratic party remains pro-Israel.

I understand, though, that the American Jewry has not failed to see the increasing raciism of the American and European left. They are becoming Republican.

As well, and you might be surprised at this, 41% of Blacks in the US are identifying themselfs with the Republican party. Only two years ago, 93% of blacks voted for Gore.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Ned
I am definitely today anti-European. I had NO idea how racist the Europeans actually were.

Aren't these two sentences together rather hypocritical?

[Ned]

Rogan Josh, Obviously you live in Europe. When you live in a place, you at times do not know how others who do not live there perceive you.

I know, abundantly, that the view of the US in Europe is reaching new lows due to our agressiveness.

You should know how one American feels about Europe. I can guarantee that many other Americans feel the same way. The anti-European mood in the United States is growing the more we learn about Europeans attitudes on various issues that affect both of us.

There is still time to turn this around. Support for Israel and support for America in our mutual battle against terror will be more than appreciated.

[Adalbertus]

I am convert from an idealist view of Europe. I am definitely today anti-European. I had NO idea how racist the Europeans actually were. I will, from now on, be among the most vocal opponents if Europe ever agains needs anything from the United States. I would immediately freeze military cooperation, for example. Get the f&ck out of our way or declare war. Your choice.

And it's mainly you (and a few posters with similar opinions) why I have to struggle hard not to become massively anti-American.

[Datajack Franit]

CNN is completely incompetant, and the Palestinian spokesmen use it wisely to deliver their messages abusing inexact and lacking information.

Anyone remember Amanpour's interwiew to Arafat?

And it's mainly you (and a few posters with similar opinions) why I have to struggle hard not to become massively anti-American.

Agreed. It's this kind of typical american arrogance that helps fundamentalists brainwashing people

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit




LOL sure, and as there are italian speaking persons in Greece because of Mussolini occupation in WW2 I want Rhodos back now!

what mussolini occupation? the italians run back to mama with the greek d!cks firmly inside their arseholes

oh, you must mean the german occupation

actually the dodecanese were part of italy for a long time before WW2. hence some people migth speak italian (no more than a handful though) and some are catholics.

that was even before WW2. after WW2, we got these islands as well. beautiful castles you've build there BTW.

Hey isn't Paiktis that greek cottage cheese?

no, actually is an italian hero from WW2

(whats the thinest book in every library? the book of italian WW2 heros, it's empty )

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Heresson
Poles didn't give their jews/Jews to Germans either. Why should this state be built on our territory?
Anyway eastern Pomerania=western Prussia.
There should be no Jewish state unless yYou'll find a territory where no-one else lives and no-one had lived
and that would be hard.

Your opinion versus the rest of the world's. I'll take the world's opinion over a Polish nationalist's, especially considering what happened to the remaining Polish Jews after the war.

[Bereta_Eder]

about the albanians.

yeah some are descendants from the illyrians.

when under ottoman occupation they were very eager to change their religion to muslim.

but albania has actually 2 "races" which hate eachohter as well. it also has the large greek minority (this is orthodox). it is not a very unified country.

kosovar albanians i think are albanians themselves. under communism it didnt matter what you believed in which god so there was no problem.


when the west decided to get rid of milosevic they armed the kosovar albanians to perform terrorism, milosevic clumped down and what happened happened.


the echange of populations is/was a very widespread practise in the past.

whoever conquered a part of the land he made the other ethnicities flee and vice versa.

that was started between the greeks and the turks.

when greece revolted and got freed, there were some turks living inside it. these were forced out and back to turkey. also the greeks living in turkey were forced out.


this is called an exchange of populations a very inhumane practise initiated between greeks and turks in that region.


since balkan nationalism is very much based on ethnicity and ethnic roots are very strong in these parts (unlike in barbaric europe where being a hun is nothign to defend agaisnt ) , the existance of other ethnicities in a balkan country was deemed weakness.

[chequita guevara]

You guys need a democratic Balkan federation.

[Bereta_Eder]

it was thought of and tried to happen by greek intelectuals after the liberation but it didnt work.

[chequita guevara]

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

Where would the US be if they didn't try again after the Articles of Confederation proved to be such a dismal failure?

[Bereta_Eder]

wat we also need is less pissing and manipualtion from other external powers. this is not to be underestimated either.

[Bereta_Eder]

how can we try again and again?

after the liberation of greece and afterwards of the rest of the balkans, it was tried.

but after that the 2 balkan wars happened and it was lost for ever. everybody was aiming for more land

[Pekka]

Ned, cool down . You know Europe is a large place with many different countries and views. Living in it, I know it's the loud minority (not very small though, but still minority) that pisses you of. Many people are against aggressions, many support it. Are we in the way? Are we putting our troops between? No. Some are only expressing their freedom of speach, which is a liberty and right in here too, you know. So why are we biggest enemy? It's the european way, we make lots of comments, yes. But if someone attacks, IMO we are don't only have the right, but are almost obligated to do it. The world is not black and white.
I think we could support you more yes, but less support doesn't make us the enemy, or threat.
And again, Europe is a big place, and many countries. Many countries CAN'T do more than they are doing now. Only the biggest countries can. It's very easy to pick on the Europe as a whole, isn't it? But calling it the biggest threat? I think you just woke up too early.

[Pekka]

Now I sound like a whining little *****. Wasn't intentional. You can be anti-euro if you wan to, of course. CHAAAAARRGE!

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh


Aren't these two sentences together rather hypocritical?

Hey! You can't be French. I know you, you're Austrian!

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Your opinion versus the rest of the world's. I'll take the world's opinion over a Polish nationalist's, especially considering what happened to the remaining Polish Jews after the war.

Yeah. What he said.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Pekka
Ned, cool down . You know Europe is a large place with many different countries and views. Living in it, I know it's the loud minority (not very small though, but still minority) that pisses you of. Many people are against aggressions, many support it. Are we in the way? Are we putting our troops between? No. Some are only expressing their freedom of speach, which is a liberty and right in here too, you know. So why are we biggest enemy? It's the european way, we make lots of comments, yes. But if someone attacks, IMO we are don't only have the right, but are almost obligated to do it. The world is not black and white.
I think we could support you more yes, but less support doesn't make us the enemy, or threat.
And again, Europe is a big place, and many countries. Many countries CAN'T do more than they are doing now. Only the biggest countries can. It's very easy to pick on the Europe as a whole, isn't it? But calling it the biggest threat? I think you just woke up too early.

Yeah, Pekka. I get a little hot under the collar sometimes.

I would just say that I was very surprised at European attitudes about the US expressed here on Apolyton. You should know that a lot of Americans are becoming aware of the anti-us sentiment in Europe. Most are concerned. Some, many are angry.

[Dry]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Hey, jerk, if you don't want to have a serious conversation - don't.

I think you didn't get my point.
My post was on an exagerated mode, only to try to make you understand what kind of feeling your post generated.
To be more explicit, a post like your one - and some of Ned's - make me feel like Israel and US ask us for an unconditional support, not against terrorism, not against Hamas, but against Arafat and Pals.
This you will certainly not have. And no free human beeing will give-up his ability to think by himself.

The problem is that if we - europeans - agree with the fight against terrorism, we disagree on the methods and most of all on the roots.
What Israel is doing today in the Pals territory seems to us only smoke to the eyes of public opinion: "See, good people, there is the Big Bad, and we, good president, will do our job". Looks, way to childish and even more, it looks like once again some try to focus our attention to fake problems.
We, in europe, have been f***ed to much and too often by politics and media to think that if Joe hits Bob, it is Joe who is the bad guy. Before declaring Joe the bad guy, we want to know more about what happened.

It is like cutting the plant, without removing the root. Kill, or get rid of Arafat, and you will have more anger of Pals. Do you really know one single people to whom you would say: your president is a bad one, that wouldn't react by supporting him almost without condition. Look at americans' reaction when a non-american say their president is a monkey. Look at your reaction when we say Sharon is an extremist. Do you expect the Pals to react differently?

raped?
huh?

Ok, not raped, whatever. Keep record of whatever act against human rights.
Remember, my post is an overreaction to try to makes you feel what were my feelings to your post.

[/q]Think for yourself?

Tell me do you believe in the masons or the illuminati??[/q]
Having masons among my friends, we sometimes talked about it. Their "think by yourself" side is indeed something I agree with. But I am still too associal to join. You could call me an outside supporter. But keep it secret
illuminati? Don't know what that is.

What does that have to do with anything, you *****?

It has to do with the fact that your post made me think that, because you were victim of the nazis, as long as you are not acting as evil as the nazis, you are allowed to do what you want and nobody are allowed to criticize.
I just wanted to say that I disagree with that.
It is not because Bill was beaten to death by Joe, that Bill's child is now allowed to spit at the face of Bob.

I bet you didn't even read my f*cking post. You have a problem with the number 6,000,000 and that is YOUR problem.

Once again, you didn't get the spirit of my post. Nobody in the world ever made a - real, true - comparisson between what is happening in the gaza band and what was made by the Nazis. Your post was very insulting - at least to me - to even think it. I guess some of your media wrote or said that about us, Europeans, but I would put that on the emotional exageration (same as my previous post). Remember: medias work on emotion, not on reflection.
When people are strongly emotionally shocked, they overreact in order to show the other part what kind of feeling his words or actions, has brought.
I perfectly understand, by looking at the media reaction in Israel and the US, that the European position is shocking in those countries, I less understand that you really believe that because we disagree on the roots of terrorism, it means we do want to fight it, or that we are anti-semitic.

That is for example the reason why I really do believe that you - US and Isreal - would receive European support against Saudi Arabia, which is where the terror money comes from.
No European understand that you say you fight terrorism, and OTOH you do not say a word against SA.
But ther is few hope that it happen, because SA has full support of the US, and if the western world goes against muslim's holy land, who knows what may happen...
And SA is maybe a needed ally against Saddam... Oh, makes me think... is the goal of the US Saddam, or terrorism? Isn't terrorism only the fake reason in order to mobilize the good people? Questions that we ask ourseleves here in Europe...

Arafat, Saddam are a small fishes, and the same way you don't get rid of drug traffic by putting only small dealers and customers to jail, the same way, you won't get rid of terrorism if you don't go for the big fishes.
Fighting only small dealers and customers is only smoke to the eyes of the good people, to make them believe you are doing something. It is NOT solving the problem.
Sorry man, but I cannot truely believe in drug fight if your only policy is "we will get rid of small dealers". When some politician say that, I say: demagogy, the guy is only interrested in re-election, not in drug fight.

My post about how the comparison is wrong doesn't even mention that number, but the essense of the hapenning, so f*ck off.

I understand your overreaction and understand you were shocked by my post. You had probably the reaction I had when reading yours.

Could we call that tie?

[DaShi]

Ignorance is fun.

[Ned]

Dry, Good post. I think, after all, that there is common ground between Europe and the United States and Israel. The reason I say this is that a lot of radio talk show and some of the media talk shows have noted that Saudi Arabia is the source of Wahhabiism, the radical branch of Islam that fuels al Qaida and which also seems to be the source of the most offensive acts of barbarism that occur under the color of law - for example, stoning a young mother to death for having sex outside marriage.

The royal family there is probably talking out of everyside of its mouth because of the inherent tensions Wahhabiism creates. On the one hand, it needs to be friends with West because it does not have the military power to defeat Saddam and it need our technology to explore and pump oil, etc. One the other, if it is not "kind" to the Wahhabi clerics they will soon forment a rebellion.

The royal family really needs to resolve the situation in Palestine in order to damp down the religious fervor of the clerics. This is why, I believe, they want to focus on this issue first and leave Saddam and OBL for later.

I believe Bush is going to leave the royal family alone so long as they continue to cooperate on Palestine - and say and do the right things about OBL.

But I do agree, that the ultimate source of radicalism in the world is Saudi Arabia. This problem is never going to be resolved completely until that country is "fixed."

[TheBirdMan]

Just to turn back to the topic.

No! The nation itself is not a physical part of Europe and that is that.

As for the religious/political part of the jews - also no!

They are not better (and not worse) than fanatic muslims, christians and political right-wings of all kinds.

And I think we can do well - or even better - without those luny fanatics.

I say, the last fanatics should be US, the danes. Nearly half the population do still not want to be EU-citizens. Though we are told to line up and do, what is best for our nation.

Hey, that was actually more off-topic than on-topic