$Mini-Game BETA: Trade Thread - Page 2

GhengisFarb™ · August 21, 2002, 20:39

Suggestion for beta: at the end of the grace period we open up a new region for bidding and hopefully have all the kinks worked out.

So basically that would give us 15-16 turns to work out the kinks.

Off Topic: captain should reach King tonight he's only 8 posts away!

adaMada · August 21, 2002, 20:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain
adaMada, sorry if I sounded harsh. I understand that it's a bit confusing. hope it doesn't detract from your playing experience in the $Mini-game. the only reason jumped on it so quick was in case someone else came along, and posted their offers based on faulty info. it'll all be smoothed out soon. I guess this is why we have our beta, to iron out wrinkles,

It's really my fault -- I signed up for it, and then the day when I was planning to figure everything out I wound up spending ile setting up some Foreign Ministry stuff (poor excuse, but that's basically what happened

). I've got everything figured out now (or most everything, anyway

), and want to thank you for shouting at me before I did any more damage to the system you've worked so hard to put in place

.

Now I understand most of what's going on, I still have two questions, which I don't see the answers too in either this or the other thread. First is in my previous post -- how do you update your prices? I probably messed up the way I did that in the first place, and I'm guessing everyone'll want to the way they're rushing down...

Secondly, what's the actual method for building buildings? For instance, if I've got ten shields saved up, and I want to build something that costs fourty shields, can I buy ten units of labor on one turn and do everything then? Does the entire building have to be complete in one turn (as such, requiring either that enough cash be free at the time of the turn, or that you have storage space for all the materials? Or can you do it turn by turn, building what you have when you're ready to have it. Do you have to do it bit by bit?

The second question doesn't really matter much now, but just trying to plan ahead in my mind, it seems like it'll be important... personally, I suspect that improvements that allow the conversion from food->anything else (but especially money) will be very powerful, since there's way too much food to go around for now.

Thanks for all your patience and understanding...

-- adaMada

Captain · August 21, 2002, 21:23

Quote:

Originally posted by adaMada
Now I understand most of what's going on, I still have two questions, which I don't see the answers too in either this or the other thread. First is in my previous post -- how do you update your prices? I probably messed up the way I did that in the first place, and I'm guessing everyone'll want to the way they're rushing down...

to update your offered price, you need to post again. you don't need to post the whole thing, just the Proposed Deals section. To save on effort, just hit reply with quote to quote your first offer, and then underneath, write your new deals. price changes are easy, but if you change the amounts of commodities from your original offers, you need to update the D:S ratio. hope that's clear.

Quote:

Secondly, what's the actual method for building buildings? For instance, if I've got ten shields saved up, and I want to build something that costs fourty shields, can I buy ten units of labor on one turn and do everything then? Does the entire building have to be complete in one turn (as such, requiring either that enough cash be free at the time of the turn, or that you have storage space for all the materials? Or can you do it turn by turn, building what you have when you're ready to have it. Do you have to do it bit by bit?

no. you can do it all at once, but since there's only 13 heads of pop currently, you'd only be able to convert 13 shields in one turn. of course, your fellow players could offer their labour (1 per noble) to help you. of course, if you haven't got the shields, there's no point hiring labour.

if you've got 10 shield saved for that 40 shield building, and you hire ten labourers in a turn, by the start of next turn, you'd have 10/40 = 25% of your building constructed.

note that the math formula for D:S ratios means that incremental building is more cost-efficient. rush-building costs more, but hey, time is money! the time saved could be worth it!

see my response to civman's similar question here http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...5&pagenumber=6 in the middle of the page.

reminder that you can purchase shields from the market too. Currently the D:S is 16:20. If you decide to buy 2 of them, that's 18:20 = $90 x 2 = $180. If you decide to buy 4 of them, that's 20:20 = $100 x 4 = $400. But too bad most of you are cashless now!

Quote:

The second question doesn't really matter much now, but just trying to plan ahead in my mind, it seems like it'll be important... personally, I suspect that improvements that allow the conversion from food->anything else (but especially money) will be very powerful, since there's way too much food to go around for now.

very likely! but even so, food isn't that bad. Even with everyone selling, food probably won't drop below $40. 5 turns at $40 a turn is $200, enough to pay off a jungle tile and have 10 turns to spare. of course, that's assuming you're one of the fortunate 26. And if you have commerce or shields to sell too, I'm sure you can make enough cash to pay off larger government loans well before the grace period is up. I hope. I wasn't trying to make things unduly harsh, but I didn't want it to be too easy either!

Quote:

Thanks for all your patience and understanding...
-- adaMada

no, thank you! because i know it takes a lot of patience to get through all the info about this game. thanks for taking the time to help playtest this beta.

GhengisFarb™ · August 21, 2002, 22:54

Estate of GhengisFarb
Turn #: 001
Holdings:
Tile 004 Apolyton NW, Grassland
Tile 015 Termina NE3, Jungle
Tile 022 Tassagrad NW, Jungle
Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
Cash: $0
Debt: -$1000 (10% interest, 15 turns remaining on grace period)

Administered by: GhengisFarb

---
Production this turn: 4 food, 0 shield, 0 commerce
---
Proposed Deals:

Sell 4(of 4) food @ $55 each ([New D:S = 26/42+1(43) = $61)

Side note to fellow nobles: I sold all 4 as I don't think everyone's going to post before the market closes.

adaMada · August 21, 2002, 22:57

Quote:

Originally posted by adaMada
Proposed Deals:

Sell 2 (of 2) food @ $65 each
Sell 1 (of 1) shield @ $84 each
Sell 1 ( of 1) commerce @ $78 each

I'm changing my selling prices to:

Proposed Deals:

Sell 2 (of 2) food @ $55 each
Sell 1 (of 1) shield @ $80 each
Sell 1 ( of 1) commerce @ $70 each

Captain · August 21, 2002, 22:58

I'll post the next Market Assessment based on the new game conditions (350 b.c.) tomorrow morning. Just want to give folks a chance to post some deals in the first thread.

GhengisFarb™ · August 21, 2002, 23:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain
I'll post the next Market Assessment based on the new game conditions (350 b.c.) tomorrow morning. Just want to give folks a chance to post some deals in the first thread.

Are you going to end the first session tonight or tomorrow morning? Also is there a specific time?

Captain · August 21, 2002, 23:09

When I post the new assessment, around 8-10 am EST, that will close the first turn and open the next. That was my original plan.

Do you think there should be a "down" time to allow for calculating which deals went through, in which new deals cannot be posted? If so, let's say that by 8 am EST (1300GMT?) this turn is closed. At 10 am when I post the next Assessment, you can trade for turn 2.

I'll leave it up to you Ghengis, since it'll affect you guys more than me.

btw, anyone want to approve of my posible "compensation" package for my duties as Government Agent?

I think I only got Spiffor's vote so far.

GhengisFarb™ · August 21, 2002, 23:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain
When I post the new assessment, around 8-10 am EST, that will close the first turn and open the next. That was my original plan.

Do you think there should be a "down" time to allow for calculating which deals went through, in which new deals cannot be posted? If so, let's say that by 8 am EST (1300GMT?) this turn is closed. At 10 am when I post the next Assessment, you can trade for turn 2.

I'll leave it up to you Ghengis, since it'll affect you guys more than me.

btw, anyone want to approve of my posible "compensation" package for my duties as Government Agent?

I think I only got Spiffor's vote so far.

I don't have a problem runnig everything and I don't see any need to worry about abuse as the formulas are pretty cut and dry.

If I'm going to run it I think I would like to propose a fee for "Agency" if you authorize the Banker/Assesor (me) to act as your agent, then before the market closes I can sell your product according to any limit you have preset. Thus preventing you from completely missing a turn. Of course all goods I am an authorized agent for will be made public before the market closes so that active players can adjust strategies/prices accordingly.

Need to iron out a fair fee or penality for this service.

Captain, why don't you post a poll with options for what your compensation should be say, pick out a tile and put that as an option, place a percentage of land sales as an option, etc. Make it multiple vote and any option that gets 50% or more is what you get. I'd set the poll to last a few days so everyone interested can post though.

ALTERNATE IDEA FOR AGENCY:
I sell all your produced product at 50% of the current market price, 40% is lost, and 10% goes to my pension which I CAN'T use for game purposes until I retire from the post.

This doesn't penalize the active players, and doesn't give me an "edge" financially until I turn the position over to someone else. This would also encourage people to rotate in and out of the job.

Kloreep · August 22, 2002, 00:02

"Estate" of Kloreep
Turn #: 001
Holdings: Tile 006, NW11 Apolyton, Bonus Grassland (mine, rd)
Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
Cash: $0
Debt: -$1400 (10% interest, 15 turns remaining on grace period)
Buildings: None

Administered by: Kloreep

Last turn's completed trades:
None
---
Production this turn: 2 food, 2 shield, 1 commerce
---
Proposed Deals:

Sell 2 of 2 food @ $50 each (New D:S=26:43+2 = $58 )
Sell 2 of 2 shields @ $66 each (New D:S=16:20+2 = $73 )
Sell 1 of 1 commerce @ $66 (New D:S= 18:24+1 = $72 )

Kramerman · August 22, 2002, 01:40

crap. I want to do this, but I got too much homework right now. i got home late... Maybe tomarrow. I hope I dont screw myself over.

Franses · August 22, 2002, 02:05

First I would like to thank Captain and Ghengisfarb for the effort they put in to make this game work. Great work guys.

Estate of Franses
Turn #: 001
Holdings: Tile 002, NE Apolyton, Bonus Grassland (mine, rd)
Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
Cash: $0
Debt: -$1100 (10% interest, 15 turns remaining on grace period)
Buildings: None

Administered by: Franses

Last turn's completed trades:
None
---
Production this turn: 2 food, 2 shield, 1 commerce
---
Proposed Deals:

Sell 2 of 2 food @ $50 each (New D:S=26:45+2 = $55 )
Sell 2 of 2 shields @ $65 each (New D:S=16:22+2 = $67 )
Sell 1 of 1 commerce @ $65 (New D:S= 18:25+1 = $69 )

Franses · August 22, 2002, 02:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain

Proposed deals:
Request approval from taxpayers (51%) for Government Agent Compensation (currently zero compensation):

1) Salary starting at $200 per turn of activity. Will be paid out of earnings from land sales.

OR

2) A 6% commission on all land sales conducted for the government (gov't paid, you don't pay anymore). Applied retroactively for most recent auction.

OR

3) Free available land of choice...

OR

All of the above.

j/k

IMO you guys must be rewarded well for the work you are doing. First: You both should get a statue in a city of your choice (not that you earn anything with it, but a statue seems to be appealing for people.

)
Second, I suggest a fixed salary. This being easy to implement. I support the suggestion that the height of the salary is defined by a poll but around $200 per turn seems reasonable to me. So, why not have a poll with three options $100, $200 and $300.

Spiffor · August 22, 2002, 02:49

Edition of previously suggested trades my previous trade post is now obsolete) :

Estate of Spiffor
Turn #: 001
Holdings:
Tile 003b Apolyton W, Forest, Road.
Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
Cash: $0
Debt: -$1200 (10% interest, 15 turns remaining on grace period)

Administered by: Spiffor

---
Production this turn: 1food, 2 shield, 1 commerce
---
Proposed Deals:

Sell 1 of food @ $50 each (New D:S=26:47+1= $54 )
Sell 2 of 2 shields @ $60 each (Unchanged D:S = 16/24= $67)
Sell 1 of 1 commerce @ $60 (Unchanged D:S = 18/26= $69)

UnOrthOdOx · August 22, 2002, 06:31

Captain, you may want to extend the turn a bit. There are some land owners that may not have seen this. It hasn't even been up for 24 hours...

And in any instances where the D/S drops belo my offer, it is automatically changed to the default in case I can't get back on to change them...

Franses · August 22, 2002, 06:46

What I understand is:
You do not fall back to the default. That would be unfair to those who are willing to deal against lower prices. You just don't sell your stuff.

UnOrthOdOx · August 22, 2002, 07:55

We are to make no acceptance for those who cannot be on in time to check final trades stats?

I was giving an order: If the standard price drops below my previous offers, my offers will be changed to standard price at the time since I am very busy, and this is of a lower importance to other things at the moment so I may not be checking it much.

GhengisFarb™ · August 22, 2002, 08:34

I think it'l all work out as I find it unlikely everyone will always be here, jyou can always set your prices low on occasions where you may not be here the whole trading period.

GhengisFarb™ · August 22, 2002, 09:18

Estate of GhengisFarb
Turn #: 001
Holdings:
Tile 004 Apolyton NW, Grassland
Tile 015 Termina NE3, Jungle
Tile 022 Tassagrad NW, Jungle
Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
Cash: $0
Debt: -$1000 (10% interest, 15 turns remaining on grace period)

Administered by: GhengisFarb

---
Production this turn: 4 food, 0 shield, 0 commerce
---
Proposed Deals:

Sell 4(of 4) food @ $50 each ([New D:S = 26/48 = $54)

Side note to fellow nobles: I sold all 4 as I don't think everyone's going to post before the market closes.

Epistax · August 22, 2002, 09:40

Originally posted by Epistax
Epistan Plantation
Turn #: 001
Holdings:
Tile 009 Termina N, Jungle.
Tile 012 Termina NW, Jungle.
Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
Cash: $0
Debt: -$750 (10% interest starting turn 15)

---
Production this turn: 2 food, 0 shield, 0 commerce
---
Proposed Deals:

Sell 2 (of 2) food @ $50 each (New D:S = 26/48 = $54)

(edited from original)

Captain · August 22, 2002, 09:55

by request, I'll hold off posting the next Market Assessment for a few hours. just to give a chance for anyone else.

but, in a little while we'll see what changes 5 game turns makes on our markets. I'm sure we all want to see what turn #2 will eb like!

btw, now I have to go return a computer I just bought! hp's a re totally unupgradable! stupid welded/riveted frame! what happened to screws?.

UnOrtho and others, if you can't handle your own estate all the time, that's what you hire others to help out with

. I'm sure they'll only take a small fee. Or if you make it contingent on performance (e.g. a % of profits) then you know they'll have your best interests at heart too.

But if someone is willing to track the standing orders of "sell at $1 below default", then I'm sure that would be valid too. The only difficulty at that time would be if all nobles did that and the nobles were trying to sell more food than demanded. how to pick who gets to sell if all prices are even?

Franses · August 22, 2002, 10:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain
But if someone is willing to track the standing orders of "sell at $1 below default", then I'm sure that would be valid too. The only difficulty at that time would be if all nobles did that and the nobles were trying to sell more food than demanded. how to pick who gets to sell if all prices are even?

Hm, this confuses me a bit. A standing order like that would not guarantee you a sale, right? A standing order that would guarantee a sale would be "1$ below the lowest bid". Or do I still not understand it?

DAVOUT · August 22, 2002, 10:09

Captain,

One of the reasons of this problem is that the nobles sell all their production although a portion has been lost due to the waste and consequently is not available for sale on the market.

Another reason is that on most markets one transaction does not change the price ; I recommend that a market price be fixed for one full turn, based on the quantities that the nobles intended to sell.

Last thing : The nobles will be extremely motivated to make decrease the waste since it reduces directly les quantities available.

Then a detail : commerce represents in the game all services ; the services cannot be stockpiled.

DAVOUT · August 22, 2002, 10:10

Edited : Triple post !

DAVOUT · August 22, 2002, 10:11

Edited : double post

GhengisFarb™ · August 22, 2002, 10:20

Quote:

Originally posted by DAVOUT
Captain,

One of the reasons of this problem is that the nobles sell all their production although a portion has been lost due to the waste and consequently is not available for sale on the market.

Another reason is that on most markets one transaction does not change the price ; I recommend that a market price be fixed for one full turn, based on the quantities that the nobles intended to sell.

Actually, one transaction of this size would change the price. If someone sold 5% of the nations supply of grain in one transaction the price would move.

Quote:

Originally posted by DAVOUT Then a detail : commerce represents in the game all services ; the services cannot be stockpiled.

Commerce doesn't represent services, labor does. Commerce represents Trade Goods.

DAVOUT · August 22, 2002, 10:35

We should ask the Adam Smith Foundation on the definition of services. Labor is not an output of the economy, it is an input ; services are an output.

As far as we can see the grain market, there are more than 20 transactions per year, by far, in most countries. But you are perfectly entitled to modelize some kind of fairy market without reference to the RL and even to the game.

UnOrthOdOx · August 22, 2002, 10:39

Ok, Who is willing to handle my estate till WrWIA is back, and at what price?

My objectives are to pay off the debt at this point.

GhengisFarb™ · August 22, 2002, 11:05

TROLL ALERT!

Quote:

Originally posted by DAVOUT
We should ask the Adam Smith Foundation on the definition of services. Labor is not an output of the economy, it is an input ; services are an output.

Have you paid any attention to the rules we worked out? Labor is the population, not an ourput of the economy as you mistakenly believe. We the nobles are providing the services.

Quote:

Originally posted by DAVOUT As far as we can see the grain market, there are more than 20 transactions per year, by far, in most countries. But you are perfectly entitled to modelize some kind of fairy market without reference to the RL and even to the game.

I dont know, we don't have any records of civilizations in 430 BC making more than 20 transactions a year, do you have some Archaelogical Dig in your backyard the rest of the world doesn't know about?

GhengisFarb™ · August 22, 2002, 11:06

Quote:

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Ok, Who is willing to handle my estate till WrWIA is back, and at what price?

My objectives are to pay off the debt at this point.

I would be willing to do it if we don't work out some other system.