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Old August 25, 2002, 10:37   #1
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War Academy/ Machiavelli Institute: Response to the Military alliances
OK, guys. This is what you are here for.

We are at war with France, Gemany, and Persia. There is plenty of bad attitude towards us to go around. What are our options?
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Old August 25, 2002, 11:10   #2
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Some suggestions:

* Upgrade the two warriors in BHQ.
* Upgrade the warrior in Tassagrad.
* Move the warrior NW N NW of BHQ to BHQ and upgrade.
* Apolyton has 3 spearmen. We should move one to BHQ to replace the two warriors that are leaving and and another one to Napoleton.
* As soon as more spearmen are built in the core, send them to the front.
* Change production in Paris to spearman.
* Stop producing temples in the Northeastern jungle towns and switch to spearmen. Now that we are at war with Germany, instead of taking Munich by culture we can take it by force.

One more thing: if we can repel the Germans for long enough they will eventually turn to us asking for peace to stop war weariness on their side. This is in accordance to my experience of fighting Republic/Democratic AIs. Therefore some units stationed on the mountains along the German front would do us good.
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Old August 25, 2002, 11:25   #3
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Wow.

I totally didn't expect this to happen.

I've gotta open up the game and see it for myself (not that I don't trust you UnOrthO)... after that, I guess it's time for an emergency update to the Foreign ministry office. Any options I come up with will be listed there, and if it's anything worthwhile, I'll post a link here.

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Old August 25, 2002, 11:28   #4
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Did we get Orleans too? I wasn't sure from the turn report and dont have time to DL the save.

If so, we should make peace with france asap, hold off germany (or take munich if we can spare the troops) until we can make peace, then do everything we can to neuter persia by cutting off their iron.

Oh and I saw in the other thread that america would sign an alliance and pay us for it, that wouldnt be too bright as we'd see germany in our fragrant valley
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Old August 25, 2002, 11:31   #5
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Old August 25, 2002, 11:49   #6
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I estimate it will take 3 more turns before France agrees to see our envoy. Until then we should continue the war as usual.
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Old August 25, 2002, 17:06   #7
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We need to upgrade all warriors ASAP. Continue the anti-French war as planned. Destroy the Persia entruders and launch a punititve strike against Sidon.

Take Munich and brace for attacks from Germans. After we are done with France, bring army back to deal with Germans.

I am also somewhat worried about the Romans. We need to make sure they stay out of thisd global war: f they join the French, this might embolden frogs to stay fighting and does not allow our armies to return to face Gemans and Persians.
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Old August 25, 2002, 17:16   #8
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Do not lose heart, Apolytonians! Things are not as dire as they seem. We should be able to make peace with France after one more series of strikes, and should be able to defend most of our territory against other foes.

The AI will discuss peace after a short war. The only city I see writing off in terms of active defense, at this point, is Napoleton. We should be able to hold the rest.

I suggest the following military moves, to shore up defenses along our border :
1) Seeburg switches production to walls, and pop-rushes (brings pop. down 1);
2) upgrade veteran warrior in Banana HQ to sword (40 gp), move toward Loveshack. Switch production in Banana HQ to swordsman, and pop-rush the sword. (I would leave the non-veteran warrior there in place, and not upgrad him unless things deteriorate.) We should be able to reclaim Loveshack, if it falls, and possibly take Munich, with that force;
3) switch production in Tassagrad to spear, and production in Termina and Apolyton to horsemen. (My vote would be to avoid using war chariots -- I don't think things are going to get drastic enough to warrant an emergency golden age);
4) send workers in jungle near Ubergorsk south, to move into city for defense next turn -- possibly to add to population there in case we need to pop-rush defenses. Move other workers elsewhere on board (e.g., above Geofront) into cities;
5) upgrade warrior in Geofront to swordsman; switch production to walls.

On the front with France, press on. Send the archer stack north to take Rheims, and the sword stack north to take Marsailles (as soon as the Parisians have been pacified). Conquering these two cities will bring the French to the bargaining table. Production in these cities should be switched to temples, which should be pop-rushed.

It's a bit of a gamble, keeping so much of our slender military resources fighting in the west, when we can expect to be pressed hard on our eastern front. But I think we should be able to get the territory we originally planed to acquire from the French, and hold the line elsewhere -- especially if we sacrifice Napoleton.

We should not contemplate any alliance which would bring the Americans in on the war -- it's not worth the risk of seeing another civ take Chicago, before we are ready to make our claim there.
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Old August 25, 2002, 17:27   #9
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I support your plan. I'd like to add that we should move one veteran spearman from Loveshack to either Napoleton or Seeberg once an upgraded warrior takes out the archer that is threatening it. Since Loveshack won't be in any actual danger is can spare the garrison unit (it's currently guarded by two veteran spearmen).

P.S. Using workers to add to a city's population to rush defenses is a very good idea!
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Old August 25, 2002, 17:56   #10
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hi ,

we should take full advantage of the mountains near germany and paris , ....

we should take a look at what units are behind the frontlines in our cities , and see what we can send out , ....

it would be nice if there is a way we can let the other civs declare war on each other , ......

have a nice day
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Old August 25, 2002, 17:57   #11
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As far as movement of troops I've set plan out on the turnthread page. The reason i would push for the archer to attack Chartes is simple. With Rheims being the capital I would rather have an assault of both Sword and archers there. This could happen quickly after marselles falls and will fall in4 turns. Once Chartes falls I am considering moving a fw of the recovering troops to PAris to releive the swordmen so we can take Rheims easier and then make peace. I really don't thing chartes needs to be garrisoned except to get resistors pacified. I also would keep temples where possible. Temples=culture = visibility and recon. That is worth more than the one unit. I think defensively we have enough units, its getting them to the front that is a problem. I really wish we had concentrated more on connecting all our cities instead of clearing some jungle.
I would like chariots so we can upgrade them to horseman. With a 5 horse force moving 6 tiles a turn I could react and maybe even counter attack. Also I wish I had been here when the decision was made to build all the workers. Yes they are nice but I would like some cities bigger than 2. I will look and think closely before I comment on changing work orders.
Also NO ALLIANCES!!!!!!!!!
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Old August 25, 2002, 18:17   #12
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hi ,

lets put those workers to work , ...

the first thing they should do is connect all the cities , ....

then they should start to build at least one mine near Paris , elsewhere they should start to clear the jungle , ...

have a nice day
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Old August 25, 2002, 18:18   #13
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I don't think I'm a member of either of the organizations in the Thread Title, but I can't stand by and see my civ go down the path of uselessness.

1)Germany and Persia are FAR MORE UNPREPARED for this that we are. Persia's production center is a good distance away from the border and we can charge horsemen/chariots over our roaded iron and across the grassland into Sidon. A couple of skirmishes and they'll agree to peace.

2)We don't need to pop-rush anything we have everything we need to wage and win all three wars. We can upgrade our warriors and start building horsemen/chariots and swordsmen in all available cities that have barracks. Barracks should be Ubergorsk's #1 priority, why our single greatest War Factory doesn't have a barraks I don't know. Why would we build walls in Seeburg? We already wasted enough shields in Ubergorsk and Seeburg will be protected behind Hamburg when this is over.

3)All available workers should finish the road to Seeburg and build towards Munich. With our upgraded swordsmen and some excess spearmen we can take Hamburg.

4)EXTREMELY IMPORTANT! No alliances, ignore Chartres and Munich they have absolutely nothing to do with this war and the AI will NOT use them. They only produce 1 shield a turn and offer NO THREAT. They will be ours by culture flip eventually, and thinking about them divides our forces from the necessary objectives.

Germany's not about to send troops out of Munich and risk their dye resources. They'll hold it until after the war and hope we connect it to their Empire with roads. If we lose Napoleton we can get it back in the Peace Treaty we sign the minute we take Hamburg (it'd be nice if we could get Munich but I doubt the Germans will give it up).

This should be a quick easy conflict with us taking/destroying Sidon and gaining Hamburg. Then we'll get Chartres and Munich from culture flips or if impatient we can take them in another war. A war we plan ahead for.
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Old August 25, 2002, 19:37   #14
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I agree with most of the above post. Any alliance will mean we cannot discuss peace. Think about it. Bloody the AI nose, and they will discuss peace. Sign an aliance and that discussion will ruin our rep..

The only other ones that would offer any resistance to us is Greece. If Greece is drug into this, we already have England and the Aztecs at war with them.
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Old August 25, 2002, 19:51   #15
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There is a Production summary in the city planning thread which may be useful for this discussion.
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Old August 25, 2002, 19:55   #16
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The key element is this;

Germany and Persia are NOT at war with us. Someone gave them money to declare and now they have to build troops divert them into our territory and start fighting a war. If we aggressively assault them we will overpower their unprepared defenses.

A quick smack, an offer of peace and they quit. In their minds they never fought a war, it was simply a political transaction.

They got their money, they made a declaration, somebody bit them, and they went home.

WE WILL GREATLY BENEFIT FROM THIS IS IF WE DO NOT FIGHT A WAR.

Quick assaults to seize Sidon and Hamburg are Admonishments for their hasty declarations. Quick reminders that the war wasn't their idea in the first place. If we do it quick enough we come out of it with Sidon and Hamburg without having to fight the main forces of either Germany or Persia. No hard feelings and Hamburg and her Iron are safely ours.

If we do start meeting German forces as we cross the mountains to Hamburg, we simply ignore them. So what if they take Seeburg and Napoleton, we take Hamburg and Germany won't think twice about handing back "useless size 1 cities", because that's all they'll be to Bismark.
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Old August 25, 2002, 20:48   #17
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Well, well, where are the Persian lovers now?

I said they are a threat and would love nothing more than to betray us, but they said "No, they'll be our nice friends."

Anyways, GhengisFarb has a good strategy, but I think its worth looking at the possibilty of cutting off Persia's iron (forget the name of the Persia city, so Ghengis might have already mentioned it).
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Old August 25, 2002, 21:03   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by GoodFella
Well, well, where are the Persian lovers now?

I said they are a threat and would love nothing more than to betray us, but they said "No, they'll be our nice friends."

Anyways, GhengisFarb has a good strategy, but I think its worth looking at the possibilty of cutting off Persia's iron (forget the name of the Persia city, so Ghengis might have already mentioned it).
I clicked the "clean map" option and the only iron I could see is the one on the mountain near Antioch, right by our over ambitious warrior. Since, I don't think the warrior could take Antioch, we could have him fortify on the iron but I think it's a wasted effort.

I've been saying since the beginning that we should look to annexing Persia.
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Old August 26, 2002, 06:23   #19
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hi ,

lets not forget that because of the level we are on , the AI had some extra starting units , ....its unlikely that all those extra AI units bought the farm , .....

we should change governments , ....see what we can do , and counterattack , ....

marseilles , even berlin , ....

lets look at all the options , do all the math , and lets rock & roll , ....

have a nice day
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Old August 26, 2002, 06:49   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by GoodFella
I said they are a threat and would love nothing more than to betray us, but they said "No, they'll be our nice friends."
IIRC several people claimed that signing a RoP with an AI will not slow down his attack but then Ninot was tempted by the Persian offer of 33 gold and signed the treaty.
Anyway, it turned out for the best IMHO. Persia has inferior troops. They're in a state of anarchy so they can't produce any more troops for a few turns. They have no iron. They have poorly-defended settler stacks within our territory, which means more slaves for us.
All in all I think we're doing perfectly fine in the Persian front.
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Old August 26, 2002, 10:19   #21
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Why don't we take Munich? We cut off their dyes. Yes, it may not be a threat to us, but it can be an asset.
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Old August 26, 2002, 10:48   #22
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We're not really cutting off their dyes because they don't have a trade route to Munich at the moment anyway. However, my experience tells me that when you take something precious from the AI like a town with luxuries or resources he will agree to talk to you sooner.
We can get Munich on the way to Hamburg. I suggest we do it.
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Old August 26, 2002, 11:04   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
We're not really cutting off their dyes because they don't have a trade route to Munich at the moment anyway. However, my experience tells me that when you take something precious from the AI like a town with luxuries or resources he will agree to talk to you sooner.
We can get Munich on the way to Hamburg. I suggest we do it.
We can get Munich anytime, now is not the time to jeopardize our opportunity to get Hamburg and a second iron for simply "speeding up" the aquisition of a few dyes when that's already our most abundant resource.
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Old August 26, 2002, 11:12   #24
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Okay, you convinced me. However I'm not that sure we can get Hamburg.
I think it's best to leave Munich as a last resort in case we fail to get Hamburg.
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Old August 26, 2002, 12:02   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
Okay, you convinced me. However I'm not that sure we can get Hamburg.
I think it's best to leave Munich as a last resort in case we fail to get Hamburg.
That's a good plan if our forces get slaugtered we can take Munich with the troops that sacked Sidon since they probably wouldn't make it to Hamburg on time.

That would get us peace before the German Industrial Mecha starts the assembly line of swordsmen into our Jungle Empire.
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Old August 26, 2002, 15:22   #26
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Let's be careful in fighting a three front war. We don't want to stretch our military too thin in too many directions at one time. And we need to do something to keep Greece either out of it or in it on our side. I think we can win this, but we need to continue to develop some intelligent stategies to guarantee our success.
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Old August 26, 2002, 17:07   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by kring
Let's be careful in fighting a three front war. We don't want to stretch our military too thin in too many directions at one time. And we need to do something to keep Greece either out of it or in it on our side. I think we can win this, but we need to continue to develop some intelligent stategies to guarantee our success.
hi ,

, would it help if we would give Greece 5 gold ones in a while or so , ....

Alexander tends to be fair , but he likes an oppurtunity aswell , ....

have a nice day
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Old August 29, 2002, 22:39   #28
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I agree with those who say that France must be dealt with. I think that Roun is a minimum, and that razing some of the besieged cities is a worthwile point of discussion.

My concern goes toward Persia and Germany.

While Germany is the greater threat due to a large population, superior military technology and an aggressive nature, not to mention its more consolidated geography making reinforcement and easier task.

Their willingness to attack the Aztecs, however seems to indicate a desire for gold rather than real conquest.

To date their military activity against us is minimal. And adding another front will make large forces arrayed against us unlikely. Not to mention the fact that slugging through mountians and jungles to take our small towns is less appealing than traversing plains and grassland to take the larger towns in the Aztec's western holdings.

It seems to me that aside from Hamburg and Munich, there are no viable targets for us in this war against Germany. America must be assimilated and developed before we would be in a position to march against the Hun in force.

However, I think that Persia is a softer target worthy of consideration.

We must take (or raze) Tyre and Sidon as a punative measure against Persian cowardice. However I think we should consider taking Gordium.

This would not only make Persia pay, but with development in the surroudning area it could grow to be a large and potentially productive city. Also it would serve as a wonderful springboard for military activity in that region. We would be beyond the jungle, and with horse units within two turns of attacking Pasargadae.

With Hamburg, America and Gordium, and conserted, industrious development our northern and eastern borders would be effectively unnasailable leaving only the small Greek and French cities in the West to be flipped by our ever expanding culture.

My thoughts for the mid-range game.
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