Coastal/Sea/Ocean tile improvement needed!!!

[Dida]

Many of the world's biggest and richest cities are located on the coast or with good access to the sea, such as New York, Hong Kong, and Tokyo. But in Civ3 coastal cities are no match to inland cities with acess to fresh water and mountains for mining and grassland for food. To change the situation, I thing we need tile improvement for the water tiles too. Such as fishing nets in CTP and oil platform for ocean tiles.

[Caliban]

We have oil platforms and harbors to improve ocean tiles... I think that's enough.

[Frugal_Gourmet]

Actually, it would be wonderful to add a few more tile improvements anyway. This aspect of the game quickly becomes tedious because there's so little of interesting to do in the surrounding countryside.

In fact, I begin to question the need for this feature at all, since there is so little true strategy to it. It'd almost be better just to have cities add improvements over time automatically, since there's so little variety.

[Flinx]

Originally posted by Frugal_Gourmet
Actually, it would be wonderful to add a few more tile improvements anyway. This aspect of the game quickly becomes tedious because there's so little of interesting to do in the surrounding countryside.

In fact, I begin to question the need for this feature at all, since there is so little true strategy to it. It'd almost be better just to have cities add improvements over time automatically, since there's so little variety.

I think there is a big strategy issue when it comes to terrain types on which you can build either irrigation or mines. Take the hypothetical example of a city on 21 squares of grassland: do you build 20 mines and get a city of max size 21 with relatively high production, or, do you irrigate the 20 squares and get a city of max 41 with lots of specialists and very low production or one of the 19 other options in between. Then there is the strategy of irrigating like crazy, grow the city very very rapidly, then change some or all squares to mines, slowing or stopping growth and increasing production.

[Frugal_Gourmet]

True. There is undeniably some strategy to it.

I still can't help but feel after you've encountered this scenario 1000's of times before, it loses interest. You soon come to a routine which you just implement over and over again.

Of course, maybe you don't. Maybe you seriously plan every city every time. I haven't been able to manage my cities at this kind of microscopic level, however.

[Caliban]

Maybe it depends on the difficulty level you're playing in.
On emperor, I really had to plan terrain improvements to optimize food/shield/commerce production...

[Adagio]

Originally posted by Dida
Many of the world's biggest and richest cities are located on the coast or with good access to the sea, such as New York, Hong Kong, and Tokyo. But in Civ3 coastal cities are no match to inland cities with acess to fresh water and mountains for mining and grassland for food. To change the situation, I thing we need tile improvement for the water tiles too. Such as fishing nets in CTP and oil platform for ocean tiles.

Would be nice to have something that makes coastal cities more important, and I believe it'll be better than in ctp games, with the current rules (You only need to be able to make some "swimming workers" ). The thing I hated in ctp games, was that the AI kept destroying my coastal improvments (nets, etc.), without risking a war (of course I could just go to war against them, but they didn't do an act of war)... While in civ3 it's an act of war to pillage improvements...

[Carver]

Yes, I would like tile improvements on water tiles. We have an offshore platform but it comes unrealistically late and can't be pillaged. There should be an improvement for food (fishing plots or something) and an improvment for shields - physical improvemnts that can be pillaged. This would help give privateers a use and give your navy something to do.

[Dida]

One method is to have a construction ship. This ship (needs upgrade to work in sea/ocean tiles) can go out and build the tile improvement, like a worker. If the tile improvement is within the city radius, then a citizen can work directly on it. If it is not within the city radius, then a ship (cargo ship/construction ship) would need to work on it, and bring the shield/food/good back to one of the coastal city you chose.

[Carver]

Dida, I like the idea of having ships work tiles outside of your borders, like floating colonies. There should be some resources placed where they will always be outside national boundaries, that way we'll really have something to fight for in the ocean.

[Firebird]

Originally posted by Carver
Yes, I would like tile improvements on water tiles. We have an offshore platform but it comes unrealistically late and can't be pillaged. There should be an improvement for food (fishing plots or something) and an improvment for shields - physical improvemnts that can be pillaged. This would help give privateers a use and give your navy something to do.

Right down my alley!

[Firebird]

Originally posted by Carver
Dida, I like the idea of having ships work tiles outside of your borders, like floating colonies. There should be some resources placed where they will always be outside national boundaries, that way we'll really have something to fight for in the ocean.

The floating colonies should connect to the tradenetwork, so that f.ex. Pearls (Luxury) could be added to coast or perhaps sea-tiles. Having sea colonies could also make the ocean tiles worth something else than just spacing.

I think the floating colonies shouldn't be there before the second era. But resources should still be connected if within the boarders.

[Firebird]

Just got another idea.
A workerlike-ship should be able to build a trade route (analog to the landbased road) and thereby connecting resources on water-tiles to the tradenetwork. Again privateers gets something to work on and therefor the navy does too.

[Adagio]

I have found another idea (Which, more or less, solves the actual problem: coastal cities not as important as they should be):

This idea changes some of the aspects in the game...

There's 3 different types of harbors:

Harbor
Advanced Harbor (Couldn't find a better name )
Mordern Harbor (Still couldn't find a better name )

Harbor:
-ALL coastal cities can build it
-Adds ONE food per water square

Advanced Harbor:
-1 out of 4 coastal cities can build it
-Requires Harbor
-Adds one more food per water square (+2 food in all, because of the Harbor)
-Makes it possible to trade luxuries, etc. (Gives ONE trade line*)

Modern Harbor:
-1 out of 3 coastal cities w/ Advanced Harbor can build it
-Requires Harbor and Advanced Harbor
-Adds one more food per water square (+3 food in all, because of the Harbor and advanced Harbor)
-Makes it possible to trade luxuries, etc. (Gives FIVE trade lines*)


*Trade Line: To be able to recieve/send luxuries, etc, you need a free trade line PER luxury/strategic recurce. When an advanced habors tradeline is used, it can't be used again, until the other trade agreement has been stopped. No trade line is required for trading between your own cities

To make it more strategic, there should be some "trade lines" (Ala CtP1/2, but they can't be pirated). The computer automaticly finds the shortest line for the trade line (Between the two cities that is trading). The person who makes the deal, has to pay 1 gold/turn for each 5 squares the trade line is. That gold just dissapears (The other player doesn't get the gold)

[Dida]

very nice idea ADG

[Galvatron]

Yes coastal cities had huge economical advantages throughout the whole history even in the 19th century they were favoured because it was easier to ship the goods and unload them instead of driving with them through the whole country. Therefore Americas coastal cities got so rich and this should be emphasised more. Oil platforms and harbors aren't enough in my opinion there must be something that indicates this economical advantage like improving the ocean tiles

[Traelin]

Yeah I agree, something's gotta be done about the overall productivity of the average coastal city. I think ADG's idea is intriguing, but there seems to be something missing... Perhaps rename the Advanced and Modern Harbors? Perhaps rename the Advanced Harbor to "Port Facility", or just "Port", then throw out the idea of a Modern Harbor? I like the idea of only being able to build an Advanced Harbor (call it Port) in 1 out of 4 coastal cities. That way you can limit the number of "boom" cities on the coast (i.e., S.F. isn't anywhere near the size of N.Y.).

I don't think any ocean/coastal tile should be usable by a city if it's outside its radius, unless the square contained a strategic resource within the civ's cultural borders. I've been a huge proponent of having oil resources in ocean tiles. All that one would really need to use it would be to have a harbor in a city.

[Adagio]

Originally posted by Traelin
Yeah I agree, something's gotta be done about the overall productivity of the average coastal city. I think ADG's idea is intriguing, but there seems to be something missing... Perhaps rename the Advanced and Modern Harbors? Perhaps rename the Advanced Harbor to "Port Facility", or just "Port", then throw out the idea of a Modern Harbor? I like the idea of only being able to build an Advanced Harbor (call it Port) in 1 out of 4 coastal cities. That way you can limit the number of "boom" cities on the coast (i.e., S.F. isn't anywhere near the size of N.Y.).

If we throw away the Modern harbor, then it should be something like this:

Port:
-1 out of 4 coastal cities can build it
-Requires Harbor
-Adds TWO more food per water square (+3 food in all, because of the Harbor)
-Makes it possible to trade luxuries, etc. (Gives FIVE trade lines*)

Cities with the Port Facility, gets a +3 in food (for each water square), which will "boom" up the city

This cities are "seldom", but they're important, since these coastal cities can grow much more than the ordinary coastal cities...

[Amadan]

The IGN Preview does list one more improvement for coastal cities:

Commercial Docks add trade to sea squares

Better than nothing.

[Hagbart]

Originally posted by Amadan
The IGN Preview does list one more improvement for coastal cities:

Commercial Docks add trade to sea squares

Better than nothing.

I think it's cool!

[Optimizer]

I agree that more coastal improvements could be useful. One should make it simple, though.

I have split the Harbor into three improvements.
1. Dock - food bonus
2. Trade port - sea trade
3. Naval regiment - veteran ships

[connorkimbro]

Such as fishing nets

see -> city improvments: harbor

oil platform for ocean tiles.

see -> city improvments: oil refinery

now, it can be argued that these improvements don't do enough, or that there should be other improvements as well, but going out into the ocean and building sea nets and oil platforms seems to be the same thing as the city improvements we already have. heck "improving" the ocean seem to be just an odd idea. Of of the many (many many many many) things i DIDN'T like about ctp. It just doesn't seem like such an idea belongs in a civ game, it doesn't make sense. to build improvements right on the ocean.

[boojumhunter]

Originally posted by ADG

Harbor
Advanced Harbor (Couldn't find a better name )
Mordern Harbor (Still couldn't find a better name )

Try working backwards a bit...

Pier
Dock
Harbour
Port

[Rebel67]

I didn't like the sea tile improvements in CTP, they just seemed to clutter up the ocean too much. I think it would be better if there was an improvement which could be built on resources in the sea such as pearls and oil to enable these to be collected and used.

This simple feature would make ships more useful, pirvateers would be able to pillage the improvements even in peace time, which would mean you would have to build ships to protect them.

I think this would be better then the trade routes in CTP which were too easy to pirate, and looked ugly anyway.

[Odin]

I think there should be oil on coast terrain and they become conected to your trade system when you put a oil rig on the oil and you have a pipeline improvement in your costal cities. THAT should make a navy important.