Machiavelly Institute: France's surrender

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Shiber
France have become a feedble civilization.

"Feedible"? I have no intention of feeding French beggars.

[Shiber]

I agree, it's definitely an insult, but I'm afraid it's the best deal we can get at the moment. However, if we kill the swordsman W SW of Marseilles and the archer NW of Port Rouge they will lower the price IMHO.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
"Feedible"? I have no intention of feeding French beggars.

Whoa... where did that d come from? Thanks for the correction Ghengis.
Anyway it still came out right. Joan is feedable... to our royal lyons! I think they're done with the last gladiators we fed to them.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Shiber


Whoa... where did that d come from? Thanks for the correction Ghengis.
Anyway it still came out right. Joan is feedable... to our royal lyons! I think they're done with the last gladiators we fed to them.

I typically ignore typos but when they actually change the definition of the word and make a comprehensible sentence..........

[adaMada]

Very interesting (and good) thread.

Added it to the Foreign Ministry Office's Current Threads Section.

-- adaMada

[Togas]

Gentlemen,

I still do not feel there is a consensus on how to resolve the war in France. I still await a PM from our Supreme Military Commander on the chance of success of continuing the war. I would like to give guidance to our President on when to accept peace terms.

Please tell me:
1) Do we end the war now and focus on buying Feudalism?
2) Do we push forward another turn or two and see if the price drops?
3) Do we raise their last two cities and then sue for peace?
4) Do we look to another civ to buy Feudalism?
5) Something else?

Your input is appreciated.

--Togas

[Aggie]

Togas it ia clear from the post he wants to continue the war, probably to raze rheims.
Aggie

[Togas]

Originally posted by Aggie
Togas it ia clear from the post he wants to continue the war, probably to raze rheims.
Aggie

And then?

What is the goal/objective at this stage in the war? Does he only want to raise Rheims? What next?

I will await his response, but in the mean time I'd like the opinion of the Institute on what the best course of action is.

--Togas

[MrWhereItsAt]

From what I have seen right now, it seems that we want at least one city in the peace deal (beyond any that we may raze or take by force), and we will push heavily for Feudalism, though it seems very unlikely we will get any good deals there.

Jean is being a right possessive little b*tch about it all, and refusing to submit (now THERE's a sight ), so I think we can't ask for much more than this, and with Avignon (new capital) so far off, we may have to end the war very soon.

[BigFurryMonster]

What has the location of the capital to do with our objectives?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
From what I have seen right now, it seems that we want at least one city in the peace deal (beyond any that we may raze or take by force), and we will push heavily for Feudalism, though it seems very unlikely we will get any good deals there.

Jean is being a right possessive little b*tch about it all, and refusing to submit (now THERE's a sight ), so I think we can't ask for much more than this, and with Avignon (new capital) so far off, we may have to end the war very soon.

She still has forces in the field. We must defeat them, then she will be more malleable.

BTW, shouldn't we have our elites moving with the combat stacks? Better chance of leader generation that way.

Also, shouldn't we have more spear in French territory? Better to defend a sword stack with a spear than a sword.

My $0.02, and that's prolly what it's worth since I haven't been paying close enough attention.

[Robber Baron]

We might not get much in the way of cities. But we have to extract tech from the French, IMO. I say we keep grinding on with this war, until they turn over Feudalism. Techwhoring is becomig more difficult, and we have to maintain something like tech parity.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by BigFurryMonster
What has the location of the capital to do with our objectives?

Well, the more we take their capital, the crappier cities they are left with (and hopefully the more inclined they are to a favourable peace - favourable to US of course). Avignon is over a tonne of mountains from our current troops and we could not easily sustain the war beyond its present extent. By the time we reach Avignon we might be in severe trouble elsewhere, with no quick way for these troops to help out at home.

[Shiber]

My humble opinion is as follows:
First, all thoughts of taking the miserable towns the French are offering instead of Feudalism seem absurd to me. Those towns are hardly of any use to us and we can conquer them later in a 2nd campaign, whereas Feudalism is much more important. Feudalism will finally give us the ability to garrison our border towns with strong units. Furthermore, it will put us 13 turns ahead research-wise and will put us one step closer to chivalry.
Some people have raised an eyebrow when they realized that Joan will still not settle for less than 256 gold for Feudalism even if we throw in a RoP as well. Many are saying that this offer is "an insult". I ask you to be rational and realize that middle ages techs cost a lot more than ancient ages techs do. The other civs want all our money and some gpt in exchange for Feudalism, so I don't think a mere lump sum of 256 gold is an insult. Furthermore, I don't think we have a choice: we MUST get Feudalism NOW or we'll simply be left behind! Remember: a civilization with no techs has no future.
Now, some people have suggested that we destroy Rheims and then return to the negotiations table and see if Joan has lowered her price. I don't support this move because:
- We can take Rheims later, in a 2nd campaign. Destroying Rheims now will be nearly a total waste, since it will only save us 10 or 15 gold off the price of Feudalism according to my estimate. Plus, Greece is more than likely to settle there before we manage to get a settler of our own to that spot.
- We need to end this war so we can safely finish the road to Chartres and bring dyes to our new towns and wines to the rest of our empire so we can allow a few garrison units serving in Mingapulco as military police to leave their post and help protect the border towns.
- Our swordsmen in the French front are needed in the German front to help capture Hamburg.
- Continuing the French campaign means delaying the 2nd American campaign. Delaying the 2nd American campaign means giving the other AIs more opportunities to capture America's incense while we're still preparing our armies for the assault.
* To sum up: buy Feudalism from France in exchange for a peace treaty, a RoP and 256 gold. It's a great deal and we can't pass it down.

Btw, if we do continue the war then I suggest that we fortify the swordsmen outside of Marseille this turn so they'll have a defense of 3.2 (combined with the river bonus and the terrain bonus) against the French swordsman that's about to attack, thus bending the odds in our favor.

[Aro]

Shiber is right, we need Feudalism right now. We’ll be broken, but we can sell it to others, I presume, and recover some money. I support this plan.
Stop the war now!

[Spiffor]

My feelings on this matter are :

Although I'd love taking both Feudalism and Rouen for peace, I think we must sue for peace+RoP now.

We have the military potential to raze Rheims (there is one warrior there right ?), but it would mean the Greeks would settle the place even before we have a settler built. I prefer the French keeping the place.

The odds are in our favor for the upcoming Battle of Port Rouge. But we can't be sure about our victory there. And should we lose Port Rouge, this war will last waaaay longer than expected if we want a good peace. I don't think we can afford such a risk.

It is likely the French swordsman near Marseilles (to be renamed Jerusalem, by Togas) attacks our swordsmen. If we continue the war, it's a sure thing this swordsman will die eventually. But he has a good chance to defeat one of ours when attacking (and he could resist one counterattack if we lack luck). Our army must remain as big as possible for the upcoming American war. We must keep losses at minimum.

Thus, I say we sue for peace now, and get Feudalism for RoP + 245 gold.
We should sue Persia for Peace if possible, once we're at peace with the French.

[GhengisFarb™]

Fully agree with Spiffor's last post. There is NOTHING to accomplish in continuing the war with France. While they have no money what's to prevent them from trading Feudalism to gain allies against us? Not to mention that it should increase our chances of peace with Germany and/or Persia when France signs a peace treaty.

I do not relish the idea of Greece settling in the gaps left by Rheims and Chartres.

[Aggie]

I apolagize if this has been mentioned before but I just got a plan, a wonderful plan an evil plan. A wondefully evil plan. We takethe 2 cities that joan will offer, hey if we don't like them they can be turned to settler. Now then we buy fuedalism from joan for rop,311 + 3gpt or so. I notices rome has monarchy but not fuedalism. So we turn around and whore fuedalism to rome for money and monarchey and then turn round and whore monarchy back to joan for a lot of money. I can't know the numbers but i suspect we could get one tech +gold from rome maybe even more since we are trading newer tech for ancient tech
Aggie

[WhiteBandit]

I'm usually not in favor of an ROP, but an ROP with France would allow me to move workers SE of Chartres and connect all our newly captured cities with our empire. *ALSO* After I connect Marseille to Greece, we will be able to trade with the Greeks.

Regarding peace with France, how would they act if I sent workers into their territory, ROP or no ROP?

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Aggie
I apolagize if this has been mentioned before but I just got a plan, a wonderful plan an evil plan. A wondefully evil plan. We takethe 2 cities that joan will offer, hey if we don't like them they can be turned to settler. Now then we buy fuedalism from joan for rop,311 + 3gpt or so. I notices rome has monarchy but not fuedalism. So we turn around and whore fuedalism to rome for money and monarchey and then turn round and whore monarchy back to joan for a lot of money. I can't know the numbers but i suspect we could get one tech +gold from rome maybe even more since we are trading newer tech for ancient tech
Aggie

And where does Joan get her magical sum of money?

[Togas]

Once we have pressed Joan a turn or two more (sacked Rheims, and beaten her last defenders in occupied France) we will once again negotiate Surrender with France.

The following are our terms of surrender:

We want Feudalism. If necessary we will pay a token price for it. Cities are unimportant, but if we have pressed our advantage enough, we will accept cities.

France wants a RoP so badly they're willing to pay 100 gold they don't have. We are not giving it to them.

I have already received a PM about disagrement with this decision and before I receive another I will explain why the decision was made.

It will not promote peace. France is paying for permission to move military units into Occupied France and they will. France has swordsmen and pikemen. France would then have us at a tactical advantage, could threaten us easily or simply surprise attack.

France hates us now and will likely be Furious with us for most of the rest of the game. Any chance they get to get revenge will likely be taken.

We can connect the road outside of Chartres while in peace or we can build three roads west of Timeline to connect to the roads outside of where Rheims used to be (after we sack it). This would also connect us with Occupied France. We also need to plant a settler there, so roads there would be very important.

Should we aquire Feudalism I would authorize a trade with Rome for Monarchy. We might then sell Monarchy to France to take back the money we gave Joan, should we end up giving her money for Feudalism.

--Togas

[Aggie]

Ghengis, "from us", we pay for fuedalism, thats the wonder of the deal 2 techs free of charge + 2 cities
Aggie

[Aggie]

Of course I'm sure in the end up with less than we have now, but you never know.
Aggie

[Aggie]

Togas, what about my idea, even if we take away rop I am sure it could be accomplished. Then would peace be acceptable. Also cities ARE important, every city we have more income we have and also allows better defense. Roen would give us a secure mountain border except near marselles, where we could concentrate defense. I do not like ROP since we can use harbor etc for trade. However I can see the other side. Yes joan will always be mad, that is why in the end she must be destroyed. She will never vote for diplo win and she will align against us at the drop of a hat. Also I suspect joan will spend the next 20 turns licking her wounds not preparing war. Almost all cities are pop1 or 2 so no more pop rushing for a while. Even if she does we can defend against her. So I suspect an ROP(distasteful as I find it) wouldn't be fatal or dangerous. However I still urge peace with the cities surrendered and then we negotiate for tech. I think the 2 should be seperate. If we level Rheims we might as well give alexander that area. Now I wouldn't mind moving our troops to threaten rheims, but that is it. Also if we did do the war, I would really like to see elite units fighting to get the GL.
Aggie

[Aggie]

Also togas there is another issue, joan might trade fudalism for monarchey if we wait another turn. If they buy from us they will buy from each other.
Aggie

[Shiber]

[disclaimer]Togas, I don't mean to be rude or to insult you, I just have a very strong opinion about this so please don't take what I have to say personally[/disclaimer]

So Togas, basically you are saying that Joan with her 1 pop. and 2 pop. towns and absolutely no gold (= slow production and no ability to poprush or moneyrush) will retaliate within the next 20 turns and will retaliate so hard that our fortified veteran spearmen (which will be replaced by pikemen in about 10 turns, 12 at most) won't be able to fend them off until reinforcements from Mingapulco arrive?
I'm sorry, but this is just plain absurd. I urge you to change your mind.

Originally posted by Togas
France wants a RoP so badly they're willing to pay 100 gold they don't have. We are not giving it to them.

Ok, now you are giving the AI waaaay too much credit. The AI does not want a RoP badly because it is planning to attack us! The AI uses mathematical formulas to calculate how much it's willing to pay for a RoP. In our case, France's AI has realized that if we don't sign a RoP with Frace then they'll have to sign a RoP with Greece if they want any access to Abananaba Major and most of the known civs, and if Greece won't allow them a RoP then they're effectively cut off from 6 other civs. They probably don't have an embassy in Greece anyway so they're willing to offer 100 gold to us just to stay in the game.
And while we're analyzing the mathematical reasons behind the behavior of the AIs let me remind you that France is the only civilization in the game that has the lowest possible aggression rating. This setting is one of the most influental settings in determining AI behavior.
Think about it: when was the last time France attacked your civ? Try to dig deep into your memory and see if you can remember when France ever attacked you during a game. I myself was never attacked by France except for one time in Deity when all the other civs were already at war with me and then France declared an alliance with England against me (and even then they were probably bribed into the war).

Giving up on the RoP is a bad idea! You can't survive through the game if you're playing chicken.

[Togas]

France will give us 2 of 3 of the following: Rouen, Grenoble, Cherborg. They WILL NOT give us Rheims or Chartres as a part of the deal at this time.

When I changed the offer to Rouen + Feudalism, France would not accept, even if I gave France 371, 10gpt AND a RoP agreement.

If we settle for peace, we will not be able to separetly buy the tech. It's too expensive. Greece will sell us Feudalism for 371 and 14gpt. That is definately not worth it.

We must get Feudalism as the key piece of this peace deal. Everything else is gravy.

--Togas

[Shiber]

Originally posted by Spiffor
My feelings on this matter are :

Although I'd love taking both Feudalism and Rouen for peace, I think we must sue for peace+RoP now.

We have the military potential to raze Rheims (there is one warrior there right ?), but it would mean the Greeks would settle the place even before we have a settler built. I prefer the French keeping the place.

The odds are in our favor for the upcoming Battle of Port Rouge. But we can't be sure about our victory there. And should we lose Port Rouge, this war will last waaaay longer than expected if we want a good peace. I don't think we can afford such a risk.

It is likely the French swordsman near Marseilles (to be renamed Jerusalem, by Togas) attacks our swordsmen. If we continue the war, it's a sure thing this swordsman will die eventually. But he has a good chance to defeat one of ours when attacking (and he could resist one counterattack if we lack luck). Our army must remain as big as possible for the upcoming American war. We must keep losses at minimum.

Thus, I say we sue for peace now, and get Feudalism for RoP + 245 gold.
We should sue Persia for Peace if possible, once we're at peace with the French.

So true indeed. I second every word of it.
Well, I said every word but not every number: it's Feudalism for RoP + 256 gold.

EDIT: Sorry, you're absolutely right. 245 gold it is.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by WhiteBandit
Regarding peace with France, how would they act if I sent workers into their territory, ROP or no ROP?

According to my experience the AI gets mad at you at first and asks you to leave but once you start improving the terrain (IMHO any improvement, not just road, though we only plan to build a road until Chartres is ours. ) he forgets about it.

[Aggie]

No togas, Fudualism does Not have to be peace deal. They should be done seperately.
Aggie