The Merchant Exchange

FlameFlash · August 29, 2002, 12:26

Welcome all! Come and chat about the goings on in Planet's economy... what you'd like to see done, or just complain that we're not going with the proper SE choice.

This is simply a discussion forum of ideas related to the economy of our faction.

((OOC: Let's RP!

))

DeathByTheSword · August 29, 2002, 15:37

what kind of special workers does everone uses in early game and with which kind of base size??? I never really get in to that i just let the bases grow and stuff without worrying about that so how are you all doing it?

FlameFlash · August 29, 2002, 15:38

That's what I generally do too, DBTS.

Another question (to hopefully get CCCP and P4s attention.)

Free Market vs. Planned.

Method · August 29, 2002, 15:41

AAAAARRRGGG!

i don't want to get into that again!

just when the fighting had ended

but as far as i'm concerned, free market is better for research, so i'll pick it any day. energy? *pah* i spit on it. research is what we need

DeathByTheSword · August 29, 2002, 15:42

flameflash in SP that is possible but in here AI help is not allowed!

and about FM vs. Planned

first planned later when it is time FM i still think that everone may choice there job.

Anodyne · August 29, 2002, 15:45

Somewhat agree with DBTS. Later on in the game, Green is the way.

DeathByTheSword · August 29, 2002, 15:48

later in the game i agree with Green to because it doesnt restritect the people from choicing there own job but saves the planet

FlameFlash · August 29, 2002, 15:48

DBTS, I thought you were talking about assigning specialists with your question... I never use governors myself... I like to micromanage.

I rarely ever use specialists period unless there's a happiness need... but I do use quite a few crawlers.

Sorry, TKG... had to be asked.

Ade, I usually prefer Green too ((OOC: however I've never played the PK in a long game... have a PBEM where I'm them... but I've never seen what Green can do for the PK.))

Pandemoniak · August 29, 2002, 15:48

Free Market has
+2 Economy : ie +1energy per square, +1 energy per base
-5 police : meaning war weariness. It is not the worst thing since its still possible to be at war with free market, but the bad thing is just that we cant use any police at all. Even with the Talent bonus of UN, it can be hard to manage.
-3 Planet : thats the BIG thing : more ecodamage, -30% in psy combat, no production in fungus.

Planned has :
+2 Growth : +20% growth
+1 Industry : -10% minerals to build.
-2 Efficiency : Thats the big problem : and this is why I recommend to switch on green ASAP, though we can count on Democracy to cancel this penalty, its better to go straight for efficiency, and then go to green. After all, whats the use to have all these energy if its wasted by unefficiency ?

Anodyne · August 29, 2002, 15:50

Hmm... I never have the patience needed for micromanaging.

Maniac · August 29, 2002, 15:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
-3 Planet : thats the BIG thing : more ecodamage, -30% in psy combat, no production in fungus.

What does production in fungus matter if you want to eradicate all fungus as D of TC?

FlameFlash · August 29, 2002, 15:53

Ade... I'm a perfectionist.

Maniac has a point, Pandemoniak... though I still agree with going Green for the Efficiency.

DeathByTheSword · August 29, 2002, 15:53

ADE: thats why we have a director specially for that

DeathByTheSword · August 29, 2002, 15:53

FlameFlash: green will take awhile to have

Method · August 29, 2002, 15:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
Free Market has
+2 Economy : ie +1energy per square, +1 energy per base

just +1 energy per square. that's a LOT.

Quote:

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
-5 police : meaning war weariness. It is not the worst thing since its still possible to be at war with free market, but the bad thing is just that we cant use any police at all. Even with the Talent bonus of UN, it can be hard to manage.

not a problem at all. war with -5 police is fine, even with the university! i'm in 4 wars as zakharov, and using the chop and drop avoids too many pascifist drones! just need %20 to psych allocation, and the research is still better than with green!

Quote:

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
-3 Planet : thats the BIG thing : more ecodamage, -30% in psy combat, no production in fungus

who cares!

really the eco damage doesnt matter. *pop*'s are good, they increase the clean mineral limit! (and you collect energy from killing the worms with empath rovers) just hope we get the manifold nexus, and cybernetic cancels it out

besides, who cares about mindworms when you have RESEARCH! glorious, glorious research!

lucky22 · August 29, 2002, 16:02

As Ade says. When the big debate (for some)/brawl (for others) broke out between the P4 and the CCCP over this issue

, I disagreed with TKG over the necessity of "maximum rate of technological progress" versus "sufficient technological progress in concert with a diversified social base."
It ended with TKG replying to me or another with "that's not my point" and leaving it there. Agreeing to disagree like that is a result of philosophical differences about the definition of "optimum". It will be up to representatives of differing positions to convince the people however they might before such a matter is put to vote- I very much hope reason

winds up carrying more weight than posturing

in the course of that process.

Pandemoniak · August 29, 2002, 16:24

Quote:

Originally posted by TKG

just +1 energy per square. that's a LOT.

Whatever. Anyway, forget 20% of this lot that you allocated to psy to avoid drones riot, and take out all the citizens that could be brought by +2 GROWTH. Thats still better than green, yes, but for an empire with less than 40 bases. Its perfect when you want to have 7/8 bases like Morgans loves to do, pathetic and weak. If you want to bring the whole Planet to eudaimnoia, you'll need something else than "energy".

Quote:

who cares!

really the eco damage doesnt matter. *pop*'s are good, they increase the clean mineral limit! (and you collect energy from killing the worms with empath rovers) just hope we get the manifold nexus, and cybernetic cancels it out

Only the eight tiles around the base, actually. And you can be an evil polluter in your home, not for the Planet.

Quote:

besides, who cares about mindworms when you have RESEARCH! glorious, glorious research!

Hmm... Our fellow citizens devored by mindworms, I guess ?
You tyrant !

FlameFlash · August 29, 2002, 16:42

What have I started!

Also, only the first two 'pops' are really good since nothing comes from them... after that worms, etc could just *pop* up and harass formers, etc. and really make a mess of infrastructure.

Method · August 29, 2002, 16:59

anyways, that last part was a joke. perhaps i should have included a "

".

anyways, can't we just agree to disagree? i don't want to discuss this anymore. i know you view on the matter, and you know mine.

Pandemoniak · August 29, 2002, 17:14

So do I, I was just pleasing FlameFlash who wanted our attention

Main_Brain · August 29, 2002, 18:54

If only we had +5 Industry...

Zakharov VII · August 29, 2002, 19:36

We can agree to disagree, but that still doesn't mean the question of choosing Free Market or Planned early on is sorted out. Those that have no preference need to be swayed!

Free Market brings us energy. Energy we can spend on improving infrastructure and increasing our technological level. Early on, the damage to Planet is negligable, as production is weak. Later, when we get our first fungal pop, it signals that we must start taking measures to protect Planet. Once we've seen the fungal pop, we can reconfigure our Tree Farms and Hybrid Forests to help reduce pollution. Those Planned/Green supporters may never push Planet enough early on to get the wake-up call that triggers the ecological benefit of these facilities before they are built. Eventually, even on Green there will be pollution, while the early Free Marketeers (whether their Economics be Free Market, Planned, or Green now) will have enough Tree Farms and Hybrid Forests to clean up.

I'm not advocated a pure Free Market for centuries on end, of course. Planned economics are critical for triggering great ages of growth for our faction. Once we have the Nutrients (perhaps from Tree Farms) to feed all newcomers, Children's Creches for the next generation, and a Democractic system of government, we must switch to Planned economics for an era of unprecidented growth. Then, depending on situations, we can either switch back to our Free Market (with 10-20% Psych, enough to appease our large populations), or we can utilize our energy to begin a Golden Age, one in which the prime benefit of Free Market, the extra energy on each tile, can be had under the promotion of Wealth, even with Planned economics.

Pandemoniak argues that a Free Market would force us to allocate 20% of our energy to appeasing the people. This is not the case at all, as our bases can grow up to size 3 before the people feel ignored and begin to riot. During the early age of expansion, size 2 should be the largest we see, and a base in which we desire a Secret Project can build a Recreation Commons to satisfy the people all the way through size 6! No energy must be spent, as Pandemoniak argues.

I'm not sure what Pandemoniak is referring to by "Only the eight tiles around the base"...?

Other issues:
->Things to Hurry early on
->The choice of the Merchant Exchange secret project, even above the Human Genome Project or possibly the Weather Paradigm

Z

Method · August 29, 2002, 20:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Main_Brain
If only we had +5 Industry...

why don't you ever make posts that make sense?

Z, we (the P4) plan to run planned and wealth until ~tree farms, and then switch to free market once we have the infastructure to support the drones it causes.

Zakharov VII · August 29, 2002, 20:12

I'm a little confused...does ANYONE else want Free Market early? Early, when we don't have the base sizes that would make drones a problem??

I say we go Planned around Tree Farms once we have the infrastructure to support size 16 bases from a pop-boom. Hmm, we're rather opposite, aren't we

?

Z

Method · August 29, 2002, 20:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Zakharov VII I'm a little confused...does ANYONE else want Free Market early?

nope

Quote:

Originally posted by Zakharov VII
Hmm, we're rather opposite, aren't we

?

you're not the first person to have said that

FlameFlash · August 30, 2002, 00:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
So do I, I was just pleasing FlameFlash who wanted our attention

Thanks

Quote:

Originally posted by Zakharov VII
I'm not sure what Pandemoniak is referring to by "Only the eight tiles around the base"...?

Generally 'pops' occur just within the polluting base's vicinity... meaning formers, colony pods, forests, and other improvements could fall afoul of any mind worms that pop up as well.

GeneralTacticus · August 30, 2002, 03:39

My own prefernces for the economy:

First, Simple, obviously.

When we have some infrastructure established, Planned, to speed up further development, create a pop-boom and give us a leg-up on early SPs.

Once our faction has solid anti-Drone precautions in place, can use non-military units for exploration and has prepared anti-Mindworm defenses, Free Market.

Finally, once we get into the late-game, Green, using Eudemonia to keep raking in the cash. In times of war we can switch to Cybernetic to counteract the Morale hit.

Gnool · August 30, 2002, 07:10

I say we go Planned ASAP to get the industy & growth bonus (with a "frontier" government). With the growth & industry bonus we can expand faster, and can be pretty uber l33t even with the efficiency penalty.

Pandemoniak · August 30, 2002, 08:25

Quote:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus

Finally, once we get into the late-game, Green, using Eudemonia to keep raking in the cash. In times of war we can switch to Cybernetic to counteract the Morale hit.

What Morale hit ? I hope we have Children Creche in all our bases long before we discover Eudaimonia !!!

Maniac · August 30, 2002, 08:31

GeneralTacticus, you are in the wrong party. The CDC will never allow us to go Free Market, only Planned or Green. P4 however will. If you just have a look at our first post in the P4 political thread, you will see our economic planning is exactly the same as yours:

Demo/Planned/Wealth -> Demo/Free Market/Knowledge -> Demo/Green/Knowledge/Eudaimonia

And just as you say, we keep open the possibility of going Cybernetic.