September 1, 2002, 03:16
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#241
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Frogger
Uh huh. So now I can line up everything that's happened in the capitalistic parts of the world and line it up against that stuff? Nazi Germany, Clearances of Native Americans, etc.?
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Try lining up everything that happened in the US since 1945. It would be fair. You no interested in fair?
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September 1, 2002, 03:16
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#242
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Or is it only okay to lump half-a-dozen different systems and/or countries together when they're communists?
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September 1, 2002, 03:19
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#243
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Why? The Khmer was aligned with the Chinese, who hated the Russians' guts. The Vietnamese were aligned with the Russians. Ergo the Vietnamese and Khmer were not part of the same system.
You're trying to list atrocities and on one side you have USSR, East Bloc countries, China, NK, Vietnam, Cambodia, Cuba, while on the other you have the US. Period. Interesting. Remind me to never play cards while you're dealing.
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September 1, 2002, 03:21
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#244
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OK. Add Canada, the UK, Germany, France, Belguim, Austrailia, New Zealand, India, who else?... OK Norway, Sweden, The Netherlands, Mexico, Japan, Portugal, Italy, Austria, hmmmm. are there more? probably a few, but that'll do for a start.
OK KH. Show us the blood since 1945!
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September 1, 2002, 03:24
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#245
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Frogger
Why? The Khmer was aligned with the Chinese, who hated the Russians' guts. The Vietnamese were aligned with the Russians. Ergo the Vietnamese and Khmer were not part of the same system.
You're trying to list atrocities and on one side you have USSR, East Bloc countries, China, NK, Vietnam, Cambodia, Cuba, while on the other you have the US. Period. Interesting. Remind me to never play cards while you're dealing.
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You forgot to mention China. Oh, no! You did! You mentioned 'aligned with the Chinese'.
Do you think I, or any other Westerner who ever cared saw a difference between Mao and Stalin?
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September 1, 2002, 03:25
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#246
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a) You're still only up to ~30% of my list. Maybe you should add Guatemala, Chile, Turkey, El Salvador, Haiti, South Africa et al to that list. If you're still short you can lump in Pakistan, Argentina and a few more biggies.
b)Where? Inside those countries? Remember when I stated that:
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Quote:
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I do not deny that the USSR was, generally, worse than the US internally (I would rather have the US governing me as a US citizen than the USSR governing me as a Soviet citizen)
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September 1, 2002, 03:26
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#247
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Ugh. You're just pissed the wrong(?) guys won. 
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September 1, 2002, 03:27
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#248
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Quote:
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OK. Add Canada, the UK, Germany, France, Belguim, Austrailia, New Zealand, India, who else?... OK Norway, Sweden, The Netherlands, Mexico, Japan, Portugal, Italy, Austria, hmmmm. are there more? probably a few, but that'll do for a start.
OK KH. Show us the blood since 1945!
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Algeria, Kenya, Mozambique, Guinea-Bissua, Angola, plus Spain and Portugal themselves (dictatorships). Then there are all the atrocities committed with Western approval by nations you left off the list.
Last edited by GeneralTacticus; September 1, 2002 at 03:43.
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September 1, 2002, 03:27
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#249
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Mao and Stalin were similar; they were contemporaries and allies. But for almost all of the rest of their histories the countries listed ran very differently. If you can't see the difference between Pol Pot and Castro, then you'll forgive me if I can't see the difference between Hitler and Dubya.
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September 1, 2002, 03:28
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#250
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Quote:
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Originally posted by notyoueither
Ugh. You're just pissed the wrong(?) guys won.
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I'm glad the USSR fell (would rather it have transformed itself into a better country than either old USSR or US, but what the hell) and I'm counting the days till the Chinese and NK disappear.
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September 1, 2002, 03:31
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#251
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The point, my dear frog, is not the difference between Pol Pot and Castro. It is between Kennedy and Stalin.
Your choice. I prefer Kennedy and even Reagan, thank you very much.
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September 1, 2002, 03:33
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#252
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Frogger
I'm glad the USSR fell (would rather it have transformed itself into a better country than either old USSR or US, but what the hell) and I'm counting the days till the Chinese and NK disappear.
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Why do you think it isn't doing that (the Russians into a better country)?
Never underestimate the Russian people. Many people have lost a lot by doing so.
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September 1, 2002, 03:33
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#253
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Why not? Sweden, for instance, was better than either the USSR or the US.
So was (is?) Cuba. 
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September 1, 2002, 03:35
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#254
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Quote:
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Originally posted by notyoueither
Why do you think it isn't doing that (the Russians into a better country)?
Never underestimate the Russian people. Many people have lost a lot by doing so.
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If it is, then it's because they're building it from the ground up. They lost a hell of a lot by undergoing their revolution. Would have been better if they could have gone from being authoritarian collectivist to democratic collectivist instead of going to anarcho-capitalist and moving from there...
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September 1, 2002, 03:36
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#255
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Just to elaborate further about Brazil:
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Quote:
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originally posted by Dom Pedro II
Since this started with Brazil... In 1964, the Brazilian military overthrew the democratically-elected government of Brazil. What most Americans do not know is that the U.S. 7th fleet was off the coast of Joao Pessoa ready to HELP the Brazilian military. After the coup was over, did the Americans press the military regime to begin setting up free elections? Hardly! The CIA began selling torture devices, which my father personally saw with the good old "Made in the USA" printed right on them. They trained the Brazilian police in numerous torture techniques, so that when the regime was lifted in 1985, 10,000 people had been slaughtered. In Chile it was 15,000 by the U.S.-backed Pinochet, in Argentina another 10,000.
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He posted this at http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...ghlight=Brazil
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Quote:
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The point, my dear frog, is not the difference between Pol Pot and Castro. It is between Kennedy and Stalin.
Your choice. I prefer Kennedy and even Reagan, thank you very much.
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Is anyone here arguing otherwise?
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September 1, 2002, 03:36
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#256
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The Swedes are ruled out of contention for Abba.
/Edit. And I suck at spleing.
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September 1, 2002, 03:37
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#257
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You misspelled
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September 1, 2002, 03:38
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#258
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Frogger
If it is, then it's because they're building it from the ground up. They lost a hell of a lot by undergoing their revolution. Would have been better if they could have gone from being authoritarian collectivist to democratic collectivist instead of going to anarcho-capitalist and moving from there...
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They will find their way. The masses often defy the pundits when given thier will. The Americans did. 
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September 1, 2002, 03:39
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#259
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How long will they have to pay for it, though? It's been a decade and their living standards are still in the crapper. Lenin managed to piece the country back together in half that time...
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September 1, 2002, 03:43
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#260
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Holy ****. We've just posted 4 pages of crap...
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September 1, 2002, 03:44
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#261
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Quote:
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Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
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Quote:
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The point, my dear frog, is not the difference between Pol Pot and Castro. It is between Kennedy and Stalin.
Your choice. I prefer Kennedy and even Reagan, thank you very much.
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Is anyone here arguing otherwise?
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re citations of the statements of other posters. Sorry, not accepted as sources. Would you accept my word on anything?
As for the Kennedy-Stalin thing... I thought that was the point of the last 3 pages. Silly me.
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September 1, 2002, 03:45
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#262
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Frogger
Holy ****. We've just posted 4 pages of crap...
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September 1, 2002, 03:46
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#263
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Quote:
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re citations of the statements of other posters. Sorry, not accepted as sources. Would you accept my word on anything?
As for the Kennedy-Stalin thing... I thought that was the point of the last 3 pages. Silly me.
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Not Kennedy vs. Stalin, US vs. USSR. Big difference.
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September 1, 2002, 03:48
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#264
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Like I said: Kennedy as a US citizen vs. Satlin as a Soviet: advantage Kennedy
Kennedy vs. Stalin as a Vietnamese peasant: deuce
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September 1, 2002, 03:48
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#265
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Frogger
How long will they have to pay for it, though? It's been a decade and their living standards are still in the crapper. Lenin managed to piece the country back together in half that time...
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Not much longer. Freedom does not take too long to sort itself out.
It will not be smooth, but people, ordinary people, will become affluent before very long. Then they're hooked!
No pushing back that crack once it's smoked!
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September 1, 2002, 03:49
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#266
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Hah. Affluent. They(and we) could be more affluent. That's demonstrated by the gap between median and mean incomes...
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September 1, 2002, 03:50
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#267
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Which is currently the greatest it's been since the Depression, IIRC. It's almost revolution time...
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September 1, 2002, 03:51
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#268
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Except the fat cats are busy crashing down towards you prols.
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September 1, 2002, 03:58
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#269
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The proles will eventually come out on top. The fat cats need them. They don't need the fat cats.
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September 1, 2002, 04:00
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#270
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Ohhh us fat cats are always needed.
You wouldn't have a target if it weren't so.
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