4th Apolyton CtP2 SP Tournament: 3 September - 3 November 2002 - Page 3

mnbryan37 · September 9, 2002, 18:41

This is a great Mod, but I will probably make a few changes to make more enjoyable for me for future (non-tourney) use. It should be more difficult for players, including the AI, to break treaties or alliances. I will modify either the Dynasty government, to allow maybe 15 cities and a moderate increase in production, or the city-state government to be less sensitive to unhapiness. As it stands now, by the time you increase the number of entertainers to keep your cities from revolting, their production levels are lower than they were in Dynesty. It also seems to take too long to get to Monarchy.

Since most of us used the increase in advances given at the start to the AI's as a quick and easy means of making them more effective, I think I will reduce the number of advances that they start out with since in this mod they are so much more effective and agressive. Many kudos to the mod creator for accomplishing this very difficult task. It was certainly way beyond my ability

Jesper Portus · September 10, 2002, 07:32

I don´t know if I can finish this tournament in time.

I try it.

Status:
Year: 4.000
Citys: 10 + 1 Nomad
Big points: Greek empire conquered in 5800! (2 citys)
2 eritrean citys captured.
Bad points: War with all AI´s, 2 cities extremly weak ...
Research: City States

I like this mod! Exspecially the militia unit!
The militia of rome starts in the first round her excursion - direction north. After few turns they reach the greeks and found Sparta without defence.
What should I say? Thank you , greeks!

Than one warrior in Sparta built and this was the end of the greeks!

I am very lucky with my start. Therefore it´s ok, that in the year 4000 the persians declare war and in a few turns they will capter two outposts.

So long
Jesper "The lucky Greekkiller" Portus

Locutus · September 10, 2002, 09:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesper Portus
I don´t know if I can finish this tournament in time.

Uhm, you still have 3 weeks...

And if needed, I'll be a bit more lenient with the deadline this time, since there were so many problems getting this tourney started...

Jesper Portus · September 10, 2002, 10:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Locutus

Uhm, you still have 3 weeks...

And if needed, I'll be a bit more lenient with the deadline this time, since there were so many problems getting this tourney started...

Sometimes I have to work

and to found a family ...

I will play ans see ...

Jesper "the worker" Portus

Dread_Doomfist · September 10, 2002, 12:45

gratz to kill the greeks...but..i think it's only good for the score...the other nations are now stronger..one enemy less..for the others..hmm..anyway..try your luck to survive...4000 BC is very early..but if you came near 0 AD..they will able to overrun your towns...

i restart again...the third time..and now it looks very good...it's 1000 AD and only in War with one nation...

resarch civic engineering...have 70k gold...2 wonders and 15 towns...all filled with 6 legions and 6 archer.....

gouvernment: republic

my resarch is running...need only 8-10 turns for one advance...

ok..let's see what the future is bringing...

ETB · September 10, 2002, 17:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Dread_Doomfist
i restart again...the third time..and now it looks very good...it's 1000 AD and only in War with one nation...

I can't keep the AIs happy - how do you keep them from attacking you?! I give them gold, map, gold, map, etc. on every other turn. Then WAM they attack me! I guess my diplomacy just sucks....

Now we are playing territory roullette - the Persians have much of the original Greek territory, I have the Persians, the Etrucians have blue (who is blue?), the Greeks have Carth's, everyone has at least one of my cities, etc. It's quite amusing to see it going on! I've retaken some of my cities and I'm going to build up my infrastructure before expanding again. I will probably go north this time, regardless of who is up there when I'm ready.

centrifuge · September 10, 2002, 17:23

Well, I'm just about done with this one. I took the same approach as I did in the last tournament. I just haven't had the time recently to play the long high score games, so I went for the quick win once again...

ETB, have you tried to make treaties with any of the AI's? From my experience, they stay happier for longer when you have some form of treaty with them.

Dread_Doomfist · September 10, 2002, 18:00

Centrifuge: Good Luck to win quick....it's nearly impossible...in this mod..your armys are ever weaker then the armys of your enemys...and you can't fight against more then one..that's my opinion...i think the goal to win this game is to resrearch adavances as fast as you can..and THEN you're able to be stronger then the AI...but a war is very expensive...you can't build infrastructure (for higher science output) and armys so fast..

ETB: in this mod..treatys makes your enemys not happier...all of my opponents are angry with me..hmm..not all..but all except 2...;-)..and gifts don't work...don't be aggressive..hmm..it's only my experience in my actual game....and for now..it works fine...

Status: - no citys lost -
citys: 15 (population 400 x 1000? or was it 10.000?)
gold: 250k
actual research: crossbow
war at: one nation (not really....only declared)
gouvernment: tribunal empire

how i keep the AI away from attacking me?

don't know..but i make no expansion - just defeat my borders...

DD

centrifuge · September 10, 2002, 19:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Dread_Doomfist
Centrifuge: Good Luck to win quick....it's nearly impossible...in this mod..your armys are ever weaker then the armys of your enemys...and you can't fight against more then one..

Who said I was doing any fighting?

Maquiladora · September 10, 2002, 19:44

Okay so how are you avoiding it?

centrifuge · September 10, 2002, 19:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Maquiladora
Okay so how are you avoiding it?

No big secret, just following the golden rule: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Oh yes, and threatening to crush them every once in a while...

Maquiladora · September 10, 2002, 19:59

Ah, but didnt you get into any troubles early on? It seems almost inevitable. I had some close shaves, like losing Rome

and later recapturing it but its all under control now though, dont panic

Shadow · September 10, 2002, 21:36

Congratulations to all who're getting on top of the game!

I think the only thing saving me from going downhill is all the sneak/stealth attacks I making, although some bad choices of government have proven quite costly...

Also, I think a large negative aspect of my playing is that I don't tend to attack much.
Anyway, can't wait to see how your games turn out!

mnbryan37 · September 10, 2002, 21:38

I felt fortunate just to survive the first 4000 years, didn't even come close to capturing a city! I have had no luck with the diplomacy end. I've had 2 Peace Treaties with Orange, and 1 with Purple, but in all cases they still attacked me with no warning. Green was very aggresive and attacking constantly. Brown also has started a few battles.

I'm at about 500 BC and have lost two of my cities, but captured 8 others (mostly green's). The only thing that has saved me from extinction is the AI's battling each other.

centrifuge · September 10, 2002, 22:20

I feel like the odd man out here, because I have really had a pretty easy time with diplomacy. I made peace with everyone right away, and have kept them happy by throwing little tidbits to them every-so-often. I've had one close call where the Persians had a stack of 8 right next to one of my cities, but I threw some money their way and asked them to withdraw... which they did. So, I guess that I'll just keep my fingers crossed until I can (hopefully

)get the diplo win.

Shadow · September 10, 2002, 23:24

Centrifuge, did you slave any of them?
The AI's I slaved are the ones bugging me now...

I just started a fairly comprehensive offensive against the GREEN's, and consequently got my butt whipped! Have to pay out bigtime to build up the army again.

The bulk of my cash is going on stealing technology and holding receptions... and the odd city conversion. I've got 16 cities, none over 11, and lost about 5.
Taken 3 cities over the course of the game and just razed them to the ground. It's amazing how 'expansionistic' the AI is.

Now at about 50AD and still kicking... hopefully I'll catch up in the tech race soon... but I'm about "30" advances away at the moment...!!!

Jesper Portus · September 11, 2002, 04:34

I "dance" with three empires:
War with green and brown and "close to war" with purple.
Every enemy has on large armie in my terretory and I have two large armies there. We "dancing" round and round - I can only hope they will not attack ...

So long Jesper

Maquiladora · September 11, 2002, 06:19

I think anyone who gets a diplomacy victory with more than 5 civs left has done very well in this game. Theres only 2 none Agressive Imperialists. I think the most important thing is to stay along side the AI on the Military graph, it can be very costly but as soon as they have a big lead on you, they start sending stacks your way.

Jesper Portus · September 11, 2002, 08:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Maquiladora
I think anyone who gets a diplomacy victory with more than 5 civs left has done very well in this game. Theres only 2 none Agressive Imperialists. I think the most important thing is to stay along side the AI on the Military graph, it can be very costly but as soon as they have a big lead on you, they start sending stacks your way.

You are so right!
I have Hamurabi on my side - stacked with 6 slingers and 5 warriors. No chance against the warriors and archers ...

So I must play "peacefull" nd can only defend my citys.

Jesper "the peacefull" Portus

hexagonian · September 11, 2002, 09:44

I'm glad everyone is having fun with my 'little monster'

I will say this - if you are fortunate enough to be able to hit a civ early, take advantage of that because the one thing the AI needs in Cradle is some time to get established. If it has that time, the game is a lot harder, because the AI is programmed to send forces into your lands. The hard part of Cradle is dealing with multiple civs all who are on a warlike bent. I don't know how many times I set up an offensive task force against a civ just to have another civ in the heart of my territory decide to get frisky.

I would say that Locutus did set up this tournament game on hard settings (land-based maps makes the game harder and huge-gigantic maps give the AI some time to establish themselves)

In my last game, I raced to the city caps for each government ASAP - in fact I usuallly was a little over the cap. At least I was able to field competitive armies and stay competitive in science - I was starting to catch up in science during the Medieval Age. (So in Tribunal Empire, get/build about 30 cities Dread_Doomfist) I also kept building military in new cities, until cities reached a decent size to justify improvements. Use farmers in new cities - and military slaver units in your armies to capture slaves for your cities.
(Janisarries are incredible...)

Try to keep your armies away from enemy forces - if this means retreating, do it - and try to lead them away from your cities. Send small forces to pillage enemy territory.

Make sure you build some forts in key spots because you are at a military disadvantage - you need to rotate wounded forces to conserve your units.

Even then, I was treading water after 700 turns. Then I had to do a reinstall because of work on the War of the Ring Scenario, and I forgot to keep the gamefile. But I was in 3rd place at that point...

If it makes everyone feel better, I have only beaten Cradle one time on 'Very Hard'. I do feel that I could of taken the AI on my last game, but only by having the highest score on the powergraph.

There are some players out there who have beaten Cradle - the settings are based on their reports, so you are playing a game that is based on their skill levels.

Maquiladora · September 11, 2002, 09:53

Quote:

Originally posted by hexagonian
Try to keep your armies away from enemy forces - if this means retreating, do it - and try to lead them away from your cities. Send small forces to pillage enemy territory.

Thanks Hex. Moving forces around constantly wasnt something i had considered much. Ive been defended a line about 2 tiles away from my border lines to give me time, rather than leading their troops all over. Conserving troops is greatly important, especially with 2 or more enemies. Great work on the mod btw, i wish hoplites upgraded to hypaspists though

Dread_Doomfist · September 11, 2002, 11:39

hexagonia:

*gggggg*
I have no war with anyone nation...i'm trading advances....and have no problems yet with only 15 citys..it's 1750 AD and in the score i'm on place 5..but give me a little time and i kick all the nations out of space..*ggg*..i research advances now in 6-7 turns..actually i research economics...my infrastructure is perfect and if anyone of the nations try to hit me i destroy their armys before they can attack me...

thx for the hints..and i think they are very helpfull..(no question..you're the modmaker ;-) )..but my strategy is completly different...and so i can't use any of them

you can see if i finished the game...

maquiladora:

hypaspists are offensive units...your hoplites will be upgraded to legions....and thats even better as upgrade to hypaspists...

...my opinion to slavery...it's baaaad..really bad..your citys would be less efficient...and starts revolutions if the AI research the age of reason...and that comes really quick...i don't need slaves..my biggest city is now a 38er...and i grew up very quickly...

ok...enough for now...it's cool if everyone have another strategy....and now..have to play....

DD

Maquiladora · September 11, 2002, 11:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Dread_Doomfist
hypaspists are offensive units...your hoplites will be upgraded to legions....and thats even better as upgrade to hypaspists...

Yeah i was just saying because i had ALOT of hoplites when id reseached barracks for hypaspists and i needed a defensive advantage. I had plenty of gold but nothing to spend it on.

ETB · September 11, 2002, 17:14

Quote:

Originally posted by hexagonian
Try to keep your armies away from enemy forces - if this means retreating, do it - and try to lead them away from your cities.

Yes, I was rather pleased when I led some Greek troops into Persian territory and left them to fight each other!

It’s been great fun playing so far!

Quote:

Originally posted by hexagonian
(Janisarries are incredible...)

Agreed. But I also got a lot of use out of my Tectonic Knights. They were fast and powerful. Also, the Tin Woodsman is a strong unit – they seemed to do well against horses.

Quote:

Originally posted by hexagonian
I will say this - if you are fortunate enough to be able to hit a civ early, take advantage of that because the one thing the AI needs in Cradle is some time to get established. If it has that time, the game is a lot harder, because the AI is programmed to send forces into your lands. The hard part of Cradle is dealing with multiple civs all who are on a warlike bent. I don't know how many times I set up an offensive task force against a civ just to have another civ in the heart of my territory decide to get frisky.

Tell me about it! Three of my invasion stacks didn’t even get outside of my territory because of the AI forces roaming around. These AIs are tough, although I have got the Greeks and Persians under control. But the others are constantly after me, breaking treaties, and are just plain offensive!

Quote:

Originally posted by hexagonian
Make sure you build some forts in key spots because you are at a military disadvantage - you need to rotate wounded forces to conserve your units.

Forts have saved my forces many times. I only recently started using them in other mods, but I like the idea in Cradle where you need a fort to rapidly regenerate forces. I noticed a couple of forts in the water (on beach tiles) – are these forts for ships?

mnbryan37 · September 11, 2002, 17:47

Hexagonian,

You've created a monster alright. Just what was needed to take the game to the next level. I had played enough games of regular CTP2 to begin to lose interest. I think it will be a long time before I master your mod.

Thanks for the tips. Do troops mend faster in forts than in cities?

ETB · September 11, 2002, 18:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadow
And one last thing, I have a peace treaty with one of the Civs, but when I check the diplomacy manager the word 'Bloodbath' appears at the top of the screen with a few other of the details.
What does this mean and why is it there???

The Persians got me so mad that I did Bloodbath on a few of their cities. I checked my regard and all the AIs said “Bloodbath” toward me. That’s been there for over 100 turns now, so I guess that it’s not something that they easily forget!

Quote:

Originally posted by mnbryan37
I will modify either the Dynasty government, to allow maybe 15 cities and a moderate increase in production, or the city-state government to be less sensitive to unhappiness. As it stands now, by the time you increase the number of entertainers to keep your cities from revolting, their production levels are lower than they were in Dynasty. It also seems to take too long to get to Monarchy.

I had the opposite experience. I was over the city limit for Dynasty and changing to City-State reduced my unhappiness allowing me to free up workers and get much better production, gold, and science! It was a good match for me because I wasn’t expanding at the time. It’s tough to balance all the coefficients for the governments, but I like the balance that I have seen so far!

Quote:

Originally posted by centrifuge
ETB, have you tried to make treaties with any of the AI's? From my experience, they stay happier for longer when you have some form of treaty with them.

I have negotiated a few treaties, but the AI is quite willing to break them. The Persians did honor their no trespassing treaty, but they kept a very low regard for me. They attacked me after I started stealing technologies, so I can’t fault them for that! They won’t forget the bloodbath either.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dread_Doomfist
ETB: in this mod..treatys makes your enemys not happier...all of my opponents are angry with me..hmm..not all..but all except 2...;-)..and gifts don't work...don't be aggressive..hmm..it's only my experience in my actual game....and for now..it works fine...

I think that’s very interesting! You and I are taking nearly opposite approaches in this game. Although I have given up on diplomacy so I am not giving out any more gifts. But I am being very aggressive with the AIs and they have shown me their displeasure! They don’t like me and I don’t like them, but I am (obviously) not going to achieve a diplomatic victory.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dread_Doomfist
government: tribunal empire

I love the tribunal empire government! I have been squeezing the most out of it for the past 100 turns or so. I am trying to decide whether to go with a Democracy next, but I am leaning toward Communism so I can build troops and (try to) capture more cities. Only the Persians and Greeks are weaker then me at this point. I am starting to get to the point where I am past most of the Cradle modifications so maybe things will start to look more familiar. Actually, I want to start a new Cradle game because there is so much in the mod that I really didn’t have time to fully understand. I was in the Great Library on almost every turn checking out a new advance or trying to identify the unit(s) that just killed my troops, etc. The pdf files for the governments, units, and tech tree were also extremely helpful – somebody did some good work on those!

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadow
I think the only thing saving me from going downhill is all the sneak/stealth attacks I making, although some bad choices of government have proven quite costly...

Also, I think a large negative aspect of my playing is that I don't tend to attack much.
Anyway, can't wait to see how your games turn out!

I can’t recall a game where I have changed governments so often, but then it’s actually a much longer game too. Take a look at the governments pdf file – I think they have all been adjusted…. I think that I was extremely lucky to have attacked when I did. I may have caught the Persians right after they sent out all their invasion forces and then the Greeks right after the Persians had weakened them! Despite the luck, I have managed to lose each of my original cities at least once at some point during the game. But I have all but two of them firmly under my control now. I’ve been more aggressive in sending out my forces in this game than I have in any other game and it has (fortunately) paid off so far. But it sure made me nervous!!!

Quote:

Originally posted by mnbryan37
Thanks for the tips. Do troops mend faster in forts than in cities?

Absolutely! Better yet, your troops will heal in an enemy’s fort too! That’s how I was able to keep taking enemy cities – by leaving my troops in one of their forts “overnight” and they were ready to go on the next turn! I even fought some Persians from inside one of their forts and I easily defeated them because they were battle weary and my troops were fresh.

Dread_Doomfist · September 11, 2002, 20:42

enough playing for today...it's 2000 AD and i start my offensive..but i think i can't kill all nations during the end...the greeks have researched all and they build on gaia-controller..but they can't finished them..i destroy all oblisces that i can found...and the greeks build new ones...and i destroy them..lol....it works...i sending out my revolutinarys...and capture city for city and destroy them and hold only the citys with wonders...for the points ;-).....i think you can't kill a nation faster..in 1 or 2 days i know more..and if my points are bad i restart a new game..hehe..and be a little bit faster...

Dread_Doomfist · September 11, 2002, 21:09

LOCUTUS:
aehm..a little question ...i read in the game details for this tournament that the pollution is ON..but..i have factorys and oil rafinerys and ZERO pollution...no civ have pollution....is it a writinig failure or is it a bug in the game???

mnbryan37 · September 12, 2002, 01:01

Houston, I have a problem. I'm at 35AD and when I try to go to my next turn, my government changes from Republic to Anarchy, and I lose a bunch of my troops. None of my towns are in revolt. Is this a feature of the program, or a bug?

Shadow · September 12, 2002, 03:17

mnbryan37,

The only thing I can think of (other than it being a bug or currupted file) is to check all your happiness levels.
Hope you don't lose the game...!