How do Intercept and Air Supremacy really work?

[planetfall]

Started to say this was a bug with the game, but maybe it is just a case of assuming the Firaxis programmers were making the game work as expected, but they seem to have taken a shortcut.

Following are my expectations and game play discrepancy. Would love to hear explanations of how this game really works.

Expectations
============
1. Jet intercept experience would be

(Number of Jets in range) * (intercept rate) {as set in editor}


2. Jet supremacy experience would be

(Number of jets assigned to AS) * (Intercept formula)


Thus expect:
for intercept
{assume 2nd adds to first is 1/2 of difference outstanding}, i.e.,

Intercept rate

1. 50.00%
   
2. 75.00%
   
3. 87.50%
   
4. 93.75%
   
5. 96.88%
   
6. 98.44%
   
7. 99.22%
   
8. 99.61%
   
9. 99.80%
   
10. 99.90%
    

for Air Supremacy, same as above IF activated before bomber mission and within range modified by incept effectiveness. { I think default is 5%}

Supremacy Rate

1. 5.00%
   
2. 9.75%
   
3. 14.26%
   
4. 18.55%
   
5. 22.62%
   
6. 26.49%
   
7. 30.17%
   
8. 33.66%
   
9. 36.98%
   
10. 40.13%
    

Experience
==========
Have been questioning AS workings. In previous game it was vs F-15 so I thought it was a UU issue, but it came back in current game. In current game have a stack of carriers within 1 tile of target city, 10 jets, all set to AS after last carrier move. Verified none needed to be awakened. Launched 5 bombing runs on city one tile away. Definitely within range of jets. 5 runs and 5 bombers destroyed by AI. It is almost as if AS does not count the number of fighters on AS.

What's happening?
Is Firaxis blocking defensive air power or is something else going on?

[Thrawn05]

I avoid airplanes. They never interecpted any enemy planes nor destroy any planes. It sucked having a carrier full bombers and not one damn plane did anything, they all failed. So I stopped building them, just a SAM improvment in border cities but that's it.


I never played Civ2, but I liked the airplanes in Civ1.

If Firaxis fixing this range limit, I might consider using them again, until then...

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Thrawn05
I avoid airplanes. They never interecpted any enemy planes nor destroy any planes. It sucked having a carrier full bombers and not one damn plane did anything, they all failed.
If Firaxis fixing this range limit, I might consider using them again, until then...

I will have to check to see if I made any mods to bombers. I usually get 1/3 hits with bombers and 1/10..15 destroy an interceptor.
The key to getting a higher bomber success rate is to change your bomb timing. I think success is based on some time value variable * success ratio. So if I have 10 missions to one tile and
- takes count of 3 from time to highlight target tile and press B or Bomb icon. For that round, everytime there is a count of 3 delay between selecting target tile and releasing bomb, the experience will be the same. If "3" misses on 1st bomber, it will miss on other 9.
- change count # for subsequent missions until find a number that is successful. Run with that number until no longer get 2 successes in a row, then retry.

Usually it takes me 2-4 sorties to find success number and then about 2/5ths of remaining missions work. Have not kept hard numbers on this, but this is rough experience. The problem is after AI gets 10..30 fighters, lose too many bombers on each mission. This is why I think AS is not working and suspect this is Firaxis "fix" to an air only war.


I also have cut back on bombers as they seem most useful for initial landings on distant continents. I added recon to their abilities so I have early warning of an impending AI naval strike.

[Jaybe]

My understanding is that "Chance to Intercept" is resolved first for each bombing mission, without regard to how many interceptors are available.

Since a successful intercept almost guarantees the loss of the bomber, I don't find this too out of line.

[EDIT, Dec 2, '02] Per the Play The World Strategy Guide, the chance of a bombing mission being intercepted DOES increase as you have more units on Air Superiority available.

[planetfall]

Agreed, Chance to Intercept is working about right. But Air Supremacy seems to rarely work.

Recently released tapes smuggled in by an informer at a Luftwaffe base near Dresden--

New Draftee German Pilot:
Herr Heimler. We need a bigger Luftwaffe. The Americans have air supremacy.
I can see 12 squadrons of B17's and 10 P41 escort squadrons and 2 more P38 escort squadrons coming at 6 o'clock low. You want me to fly this old FW 270? Alone, me vs 12 new American fighters. Have you looked at my plane: it leaks oil after 20 minutes of flight time, there are hundreds of whistles from the holes in the fuselage. It is so noisy I can't even hear my guns firing. One of me vs 12 squadrons.
Du Dummkoft.
Please Mister Heimler, I don't want to go. There are some nasty Amer guns around the bend.

Herr Heimler:
Nein, du ist dummkopt.
Didn't you get your basic training? We have the Firaxis shield. Remember. With the shield only one of those fighters MIGHT be able to see you. It's a turkey shoot. Go up their and have fun creaming those bombers before they get to Dresden. Surely you remember how to handle one of those dumb US fighters and remember how to smash those pesty allied air polluters! Just do it.

New Draftee: Yawohl, Heil Hitler.
Herr Heimler: Heil Hitler.

--{time out for mission}--

New Draftee:
Herr Heimler, sorry to come running in before getting cleaned up, but you were right. I clobbered 10 of those green monsters. The Firaxis shield worked great. There were dozens of Mustangs buzzing all around me. They flew past me as if I was not there. Fantastic. Only one P38 on the far side even noticed me, and it was no trouble keeping bombers between us. What fun. When can I do it again? Do I really have to wait til tomorrow? Can't I go back now?

Herr Heimler:
naturally, go have fun good boy. Get another dozen and we'll have an Iron Cross for you. Heil Hitler.

New Draftee: danke, danke, danke. Heil Hitler.

[Jaybe]

Planetfall, I am NOT getting your point.

What do you mean by Air Superiority not working? If the bombing mission is to be intercepted, then it will be if an interceptor is available. If you want to have a fighter get intercepted to perhaps win against the interceptor, then bomb with a fighter and hope it gets intercepted.*

*I have increased fighter defense strengths to almost their attack strengths to facilitate this, but have not been in a contested air environment enough to validate its usefulness. (The interceptor would be the attacker).

[Cyclotron]

Thrawn, I recently wrestled North America from the Indians in one of my games... My entire land attack was based out of Alaska and Central America. Even with Modern Armor, my two bomber-carriers and bombers operating out of Greenland and Mexico made my job infinitly easier. I agree that fighters seem to be a waste (I have only seen 1 interception in all my games) but bombers in my mind are tried and true powerhouses, especially when based offshore. I've never gotten to Steath Bombers, but it seems like they would be even better... I'm kind of shocked that bombers don't work for you. What do you normally using them against? I admit that MI fortified in Metros seem to hold of bombers pretty well, but as I always play oil denial in the late game this rarely bothers me.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Jaybe
Planetfall, I am NOT getting your point.

What do you mean by Air Superiority not working? If the bombing mission is to be intercepted, then it will be if an interceptor is available. If you want to have a fighter get intercepted to perhaps win against the interceptor, then bomb with a fighter and hope it gets intercepted.*

*I have increased fighter defense strengths to almost their attack strengths to facilitate this, but have not been in a contested air environment enough to validate its usefulness. (The interceptor would be the attacker).

What I was trying to say was:

Situation A: no defensive fighters
Bomber vs AI interceptor-- odds of interception should be based on normal rules

Situation B: 1 defensive fighter
Bomber & AS fighter -vs- AI interceptor--
1st resolve: fighter vs fighter potential combat,
2nd resolve: AI interceptor vs bomber

Situation C: Multiple defensive fighters
Bomber & ## AS fighers -vs- AI interceptor(s).

1st resolve: AS fighter(s) -vs- AI interceptor(s)
2nd resolve: remaining AI interceptor(s) vs bomber.

It doesn't seem like Situation C is ever reached in this game. 10 defending fighters vs one bomber attacking AI fighter should have a lower probability of reaching the incoming bomber unit than 2 defending fighters and 5 bomber attacking AI fighers.

Still unclear??

--PF

[Ethelred]

What defending fighters?

Fighters only defend cities or carriers and the other units on the tile. They don't defend bombers on a bombing mission. They only defend if they are given the Air Supremecy mission in which case they do nothing else. Air Supremecy worked very poorly for carriers originaly since every time you moved the carrier all the units went into sleep mode which took the fighters out of their Air Supremecy mode. Its supposed to hold now but I haven't been using carriers much lately because I have been playing with large continents.

If you want to knock out the defensive fighters you must make your first bombing runs with fighters in which case they can't do an Air Supremecy mission. That way the fighters will attack the defending fighters and have much better chance of survival than bombers. If you have enough fighters they will use up all the defending units. If you don't then the bombers that follow will have to deal with the remaining fighters.

Fighters engaged in Air Supremecy seem to work only one at a time. One bomber uses up one fighter that is on Air Supremecy. There are no multi plane actions. Its all one on one from what I have been able to see. One attacker is engaged by a sole defender even if there are many.

[Jaybe]

Planetfall,
I get it, now. You were expecting fighters assigned to Air Superiority were assumed to be ESCORTING bombers.

Sorry to dash your dreams, but Air Superiority is ONLY for intercepting bombers, at half their operational range (Fighters at 2 tile radius, Jet Fighters at 3). If you have any hard evidence to the contrary, please submit it.

I also have pursued the concept of offensive air superiority/bomber escort missions. Reference my previous post.

I also was disappointed in the lack of depth to air combat. Half the air missions should be devoted to knocking out the other's airfields & aircraft, but especially artillery. Oh well, too complex for a "popular" strategy game.
[/Rant]

[dunk]

Originally posted by planetfall
Dummkoft.

Yawohl

Dummkopf.

Jawohl.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Ethelred
What defending fighters?

Fighters only defend cities or carriers and the other units on the tile... They only defend if they are given the Air Supremecy mission in which case they do nothing else.

Fighters engaged in Air Supremecy seem to work only one at a time. One bomber uses up one fighter that is on Air Supremecy. There are no multi plane actions. Its all one on one from what I have been able to see. One attacker is engaged by a sole defender even if there are many.

What: AS is only to the center of range? I thought the definition of AS range was 1/2 of the fighters normal range. If what you say is true, then AS only works on the city center and the carrier center tiles. Adjacent tiles are not protected. I was thinking AS applies to all air combat: both incoming bombers and fighters. It sounds like AS only applies to incoming bombardment runs and does not extend to outgoing runs.

Your explanation sounds like this is the way the game works, but I think the explanation of AS was different. I will have to look it up.

Thanks, you confirm what I was seeing in game play.

--PF

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by planetfall


What: AS is only to the center of range? I thought the definition of AS range was 1/2 of the fighters normal range.

That wasn't quite what I meant. I was ambiguous I guess, partly because I was hazy on the range concept. I wasn't thinking of it in terms of range when I was typing that up. Just in terms of where they were positioned. For instance I usually have carriers groups in a single stack and only rarely are there other things for the AI to attack within range of the fighers. I have noticed that sometimes a fighter will defend tiles that are in another cities territory but I hadn't really thought about it being a matter of range.

If what you say is true, then AS only works on the city center and the carrier center tiles. Adjacent tiles are not protected.

Adjacent tiles are definitly protected. I have been shot down plenty of times trying to nail Uranium. When at war I always make uranium the highest priority target unless I can take a city that will give me control of the tile. As Jaybe mentioned allready the range is half the attack range. Maybe if I was using air units as much as I used to I would have remembered that but I didn't.

I was thinking AS applies to all air combat: both incoming bombers and fighters. It sounds like AS only applies to incoming bombardment runs and does not extend to outgoing runs.

Correct. The mission title of Air Supremecy is counterintuitive and generates the confusion.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by cyclotron7
Thrawn, I recently wrestled North America from the Indians in one of my games... My entire land attack was based out of Alaska and Central America. Even with Modern Armor, my two bomber-carriers and bombers operating out of Greenland and Mexico made my job infinitly easier. I agree that fighters seem to be a waste (I have only seen 1 interception in all my games) but bombers in my mind are tried and true powerhouses, especially when based offshore. I've never gotten to Steath Bombers, but it seems like they would be even better... I'm kind of shocked that bombers don't work for you. What do you normally using them against? I admit that MI fortified in Metros seem to hold of bombers pretty well, but as I always play oil denial in the late game this rarely bothers me.

And some people actualy get a leader.

I just don't like the failure rate, I have had successful missions, but (and this is off the top of my head, need to work this out) about 1/3 of ALL of my bombing missions are actualy successful in some way. Lethla bombardment helps, but rare.

With carriers in mind, carriers have basicly replaced the battleship across the board, and with this bomber failure rate, I don't see that in Civ3, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Some months ago I tried making bombers and fighters like regular units, but the crashed when I attacked.

Increasing the strength would help, but I don't want it to be too unbalanced. Any mods that combat this?

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Ethelred


Correct. The mission title of Air Supremecy is counterintuitive and generates the confusion.

Since "Air Supremacy" implies supremacy for all air combat, both defensive and offensive, it would be less confusing to have "Air Supremacy" relabeled "Ground Defense". This relabeling would make it clear that other air actions within the AS range, i.e. bomber close troop support would not be covered by selecting AS.

Of course, a better solution would be to reset AS so fighters defend Air Space against all other civ Air Activity:

• incoming bombers on bombardment missions
  
• incoming fighters on bombardment missions
  
• incoming fighters on intercept missions
  
• incoming paratroopers
  
• incoming air lifts {where AI city is 2 tiles away from your city and fighter range is 6 tiles}
  

PTW may be too close to release for that fix now, but it would sure be nice to have a better syncronization between game comcepts and game play. It is way too easy to explain unexpected game play as "AI cheats".

--PF

[Wormwood]

Ok, so I'm a newbie when it comes to Civ3 air combat, but if my understanding is correct, this is how it is:

A fighter on AirSup. attacks only ground units attacking the city (or area of operation?)
A fighter on AS does not attack incoming bombers

To have a fighter set up to intercept any incoming bombers, does one need to have a fortified fighter in a city? Should one have at least two fighters in a city, one for AS and one fortified for interception? Given the poor bombard ability of a fighter, is it worth it to have it perform AS?

I know these might seem like sophmoric questions but this is all vey confusing. any help would be appreciated.

[planetfall]

Isn't funny how everyone "understands air combat" until you start asking questions?

Originally posted by Wormwood
Ok, so I'm a newbie when it comes to Civ3 air combat, but if my understanding is correct, this is how it is:

A fighter on AirSup. attacks only ground units attacking the city (or area of operation?)

This can't be as AirSup mission is different from bombardment mission.

A fighter on AS does not attack incoming bombers

But this seems to be the primary mission of AS both in my understanding and in game play.

To have a fighter set up to intercept any incoming bombers, does one need to have a fortified fighter in a city?

Now that is interesting, what are the options for fighters?
-- bombard
-- skip {this turn}
-- AS
-- {relocate}
-- fortify.
-- can you sentry,"y", a fighter, fortify til enemy within range?

Is there any game play difference between Fortify and AS? Doesn't Fortify put unit to sleep and require manual wake to reactivate?

Should one have at least two fighters in a city, one for AS and one fortified for interception? Given the poor bombard ability of a fighter, is it worth it to have it perform AS?

I know these might seem like sophmoric questions but this is all vey confusing. any help would be appreciated.

Poor bombard ability, yeah, I'd saw about 1/50 for a road. Guess the designers never saw any WWII footage.

AS does work vs bombers. But how do we get fighter vs fighter action? Fake a fighter bombing run? But won't AI just wait for bombers and let the ineffective fighter bomb missions go unchallenged?

We have questions, anyone have better answers?

-- PF

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by planetfall
Since "Air Supremacy" implies supremacy for all air combat, both defensive and offensive, it would be less confusing to have "Air Supremacy" relabeled "Ground Defense".

Why not call it Air Interception mission?

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Thrawn05


Why not call it Air Interception mission?

Because it does not intercept defending fighters. It only intercepts attacking bombers.

Bomber Interception would work, though.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Wormwood


A fighter on AirSup. attacks only ground units attacking the city (or area of operation?)

No. Only a bombing mission attacks anything on the ground.

A fighter on AS does not attack incoming bombers

No. Attacking incoming bombers OR fighters on a bombing mission is exactly what Air Supremecy does.

To have a fighter set up to intercept any incoming bombers, does one need to have a fortified fighter in a city?

It must be given the Air Supremecy mission. A fortified fighter does nothing except sit on the ground exactly like skipping its turn only automaticly. They do not contribute to defense in anyway.

Should one have at least two fighters in a city, one for AS and one fortified for interception? Given the poor bombard ability of a fighter, is it worth it to have it perform AS?

Whatever you find works for you. The AI tends to have a lot of fighters. I rarely bother with fighters as they get shot down fairly often by bombers. I do build Jets. They make the kill most of the time when they intercept a bomber they have more range and a better chance on a bombing mission as well. I tend to be on the offense by the time the AI is using bombers so I am rarely defending my cities against bomber runs.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by planetfall


Because it does not intercept defending fighters. It only intercepts attacking bombers.

Bomber Interception would work, though.

It intercepts ANYTHING on a bombing mission including fighters. Thats one of the uses for a fighter. Send them on a bomb run to use up the Air Supremecy defense units. THEN send in the bombers. If all the Air Supremecy fighters were used up on the bombing fighters then they won't be available to attack the bombers.

Thats as close as you can get to a fighter escort. Fighters first then the real bomb run. Fighters are really lousy at bombing missions but they are good at handling the air defense.

I just send in the tanks now and forget about bombing most of the time. That lets me take the cities intact. That method works best when you are going to eliminate the victim fairly quickly so you don't have to worry about culture flipping except in the short term.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Ethelred


It intercepts ANYTHING on a bombing mission including fighters. Thats one of the uses for a fighter. Send them on a bomb run to use up the Air Supremecy defense units. THEN send in the bombers. If all the Air Supremecy fighters were used up on the bombing fighters then they won't be available to attack the bombers.

Thats as close as you can get to a fighter escort. Fighters first then the real bomb run. Fighters are really lousy at bombing missions but they are good at handling the air defense.

This is why we need a relabel. Air Supremacy implies this mission is to fight for total control of air space. This would include challenging non-bombing missions: recon and other civ's Air Supremacy missions.

I have only been setting fighters on recon missions and AI does not seem to challenge those. I will have to try "bombing" with fighters and see if there is any response.

I just send in the tanks now and forget about bombing most of the time. That lets me take the cities intact. That method works best when you are going to eliminate the victim fairly quickly so you don't have to worry about culture flipping except in the short term.

Agreed, I used to waste too much time for bombing missions. Doesn't make sense anymore. BUT they are extremely helpful for getting that first foothold on a distant continent. Once there it's airlift time.

In current game I was trying to remove the 2 tiles each of oil and alum from Greece. I was trying to use bombardment until I had time to get units over there.

Discovered an interesting technique that was most effective in this game:

Situation: Greece had a few MA and my panzers were no match. Greece was ahead in score and in productivity. We were down to 4 civs, each on it's own continent: Greece, Rome, Japan, and Germany.

Strategy: MPP with Japan. For about 40 turns everyone ganged up on Greece as they were about 300 score points ahead and about 3..5 tech ahead.

Result: Greece went communist, and other 2 civs sued for peace. I could not as no money and too far behind. So landed at coastal alum spot and put up a city with 1/2 alum inside borders.

Tactics: used bombers to remove roads around oil and other alum. Only about 1/2 of time successful. Greece really jumped from 8 fighters to over 30. I was loosing too many bombers and could not continue that way.

So I brought over 2 MI armies. Planted 2 over one oil. That left 1 oil and 1 alum on other side of continent. Previously I try to take out cities on the way to the strategic resource, but did not think I had the power this time. Instead I tried a stack of 5 MI and 5 panzers. Ignored the cities, ignored the MA attacks, ignored the cruise missile hits and marched for 6 turns of 2 tiles per turn over to the 2nd oil. I did get there, but lost a couple units and most were down to 1-3 HP. But without regular lost of bombers, I am now able to remove oil from Greece.

In about 4 turns I will have enough money to try to buy a spy and see the effect of this hard work. Surprised it worked. Late in this tactic, I realized I might as well use the extra move of the panzers to remove improvements on the march to the oil.

Still not up to Greece, but now am making progress. For Greece I will retire bombers and only use a few fighters. I won't disband because may need for Rome or Japan.

I haven't had a game like this where Greece took off at the end of the Industrial Age. Looks like best strategy is to get rid of Greece, or at least knock down during Middle Ages.

--PF

[Jaybe]

Re: Recon missions not being intercepted

... as the AI never NEED recon, Firaxis probably thought ...

[planetfall]

Double checked definition of AS by Firaxis and AirSup does NOT include fighter escort of bomber missions. Boo Hoo.

No wonder my stack of fighters had no effect. Ethelred is correct, the only way to use fighters as escort is to proceed bomber strikes with fighter bombing runs.

I sure would like to see PTW or civ4 with a better balance between ground/air/sea. Civ3 is obviously all about ground.

--PF