Mid-game strategy - Neub needs help.

ArmaGeddin · September 5, 2002, 13:40

OK, I have a typical place in almost every game where I stall out. I have been reading the strategy tips on this board and they are great, but I still can't seem to get past this one place in my games. Here is the set up.....

Standard sized map with default starting options with difficulty set at the third one, I think its Warlord.
I start the game in REX, pushing out with settlers, and building troops so when I find that first AI civ I can clean up on him.
I set my science bar to 50% or 60% so I can get those tech. I need for expansion, and troops that I can't get from negotiations with the AI.
I get three or four cities started when I find the first civ. I negotiate with him to get what ever tech and contacts I can before I attack, then I launch my Archer / Spearmen attack on that civ. I win and either keep the cities, or destroy them based on population and placement. Sometimes I can renegotiate and get more tech and gold then wipe him out all together later on after pushing past him with my cities.
At about this point I should have contact with about everyone through negotiations, and I drop my science bar down to 0 while I buy up all the tech. and contacts I can.
I'm still in Depotism and I should have around 10 or more cities and I have the same technology level as everyone else minus maybe one tech. We are all getting close to the Middle Ages.

This is where I start to run into problems.....

REX is over. I have run out of room to expand either because of the terrain, or running into AI civs. I have plenty of troops, Swordsmen, Archers, and Spearmen. I may have one Wonder, maybe not, depends. My cities are starting to grow and expand, and I'm working on temples in my outside cities next to the AI. My outside cities don't have much production though and they can't build anything much at all even with 5 or 6 populations. I want to move my Palace to a more central location, but the cities I want to move it to have no production due to corruption so it would take forever to move it. I would like to build the Forbidden Palace out next to the AI so I can expand in that direction, but it would take for ever for the same reasons. Now the AI starts to catch up to me. My cities start to stagnate, and I stop expanding. Where should I go from here?

Should I switch to Monarchy?
How should I set my science bar? What factors do you take into account when setting it?
How the h*ll do I build a Palace in those corrupt cities more central to my empire?
How do I build the FP on the edge of my empire out by the AI so I can use the lack of corruption to expand into
them?

Theseus · September 5, 2002, 14:54

My guess is that it comes down to happiness and gold.

How many luxuries do you typically have at this point? Are you exporting any? Are you using the luxury slider as well? Can you get towns into WLTKD?

Are you always playing catch up in tech? You need to learn to (at least sometimes) break away from whatever the AI civs are researching, and achieve a tech lead in at least one branch. An easy way to get guidance for this is to NOT research what the advisor recommends.

I assume you're building many, many roads (for commerce).

You definitely want to get into Monarchy or Republic ASAP. Partially for corruption, but also so that you can buy improvements.

So, many luxuries for happiness, Monarchy to lessen corruption and be able to buy improvements, and then extra gold from selling luxuries and techs... why is this important?

That gold will let you buy whatever you need to make towns / cities productive. Temples, Cathedrals, Colosseums, Marketplaces, Courthouses... You fill up a city with those, and you won;t have a problem.

Regarding the Palace and FP, there are a couple of great threads here and in General. You might want to try building the FP first, in a more optimal position (with decent productivity), and then later build a Palace elsewhere with a GL.

ArmaGeddin · September 5, 2002, 15:28

"How many luxuries do you typically have at this point? Are you exporting any? Are you using the luxury slider as well? Can you get towns into WLTKD?"

At this point I don't yet have roads to the other civs so I cant export my luxuries yet, but I'm on my way to get those. Maybe I should be working on that sooner. I have never used the Luxury slider yet, so I don't know when to use it or how to use it.

"Are you always playing catch up in tech? You need to learn to (at least sometimes) break away from whatever the AI civs are researching, and achieve a tech lead in at least one branch. An easy way to get guidance for this is to NOT research what the advisor recommends. "

I can usualy get what ever tech I need, when I need it. I just take the slider and put in at 100% when I need a specific tech. The rest of the time im at 0% for the cash so I can buy all the rest.

"I assume you're building many, many roads (for commerce). "

Yes, I have tons of roads inside my empire to everything. I usualy put the workes on auto and let em go from just after I get 3 or 4 cities down. I only do specific tasks with workers that are not on auto.

"You definitely want to get into Monarchy or Republic ASAP. Partially for corruption, but also so that you can buy improvements"

This may be where i'm not moving fast enough. I usualy stay in Depotism untill I stop REX. Maybe I should move to Monarchy sooner....

"many luxuries for happiness"

I always get any Luxuries as soon as I can and I will destroy or take any AI city that has one within reach. I also make sure I build roads to them and have a city within reach of them.

"That gold will let you buy whatever you need to make towns / cities productive. Temples, Cathedrals, Colosseums, Marketplaces, Courthouses... You fill up a city with those, and you won;t have a problem"

I think this is my major problem. I am staying in Depotism to long and not getting into Monarchy fast enough. I usualy play a warlike civ, and I like large amounts of troops for attacks so I think Monarchy is best through the middle game until I stop the agression and settle down in the end game.

"Regarding the Palace and FP, there are a couple of great threads here and in General. You might want to try building the FP first, in a more optimal position (with decent productivity), and then later build a Palace elsewhere with a GL"

This is a MAJOR problem for me. I almost never get these built because of the lack of production in the outside cities to build them. I'm going to go read up on rush building these to see how I can get it done. I think this is a big problem because without the FP in the end game alot of cities will have really bad corruption, and without moving my Palace to a more central location the same thing is happening. This leaves me with only a few productive cities, and all the rest suck!

vmxa1 · September 5, 2002, 15:34

Quote:

Originally posted by ArmaGeddin
Should I switch to Monarchy?
How should I set my science bar? What factors do you take into account when setting it?
How the h*ll do I build a Palace in those corrupt cities more central to my empire?
How do I build the FP on the edge of my empire out by the AI so I can use the lack of corruption to expand into
them?

I would switch to monarch as soon as it came available, in most case. Sometimes you can not due to say a wonder is a couple of turn from being done. If I missed Monarch, then if I was close to Republic, I would do it.
Sliders for science depends on how I am doing. If I am able to be close in tech I will go as far as I can without negative cash. I use Lux first (getting markets), then jokers and finally slide the lux bar. Must have no unrest this early in the game.
Palace or FP can be done (as I just did) with labor or better yet a leader. If labor, just get it started. Many times being connected to the capitol and getting a temple is enough to flip small cities.
I really find that delays in getting out of Depotism is painful. It is only useful if you are a big pop rusher.

Theseus · September 5, 2002, 15:37

Gotta be a builder to be a good warmonger.

From the sense of what you wrote back, I'd focus on:

1. Get more luxuries, and start exporting sooner.
2. Try getting at least one tech before anybody else, and sell it off to everyone in the same turn... you'lll be surprised how much money you can make.
3. Definitely get to Monarch ASAP.

Do all that, and you'll be able to build up productivity in your outlier towns. That accomplished, you'll be able to experiment with FP placement and Palace relo's.

ArmaGeddin · September 5, 2002, 15:46

I agree, getting to Monarchy seems to be one of the big places i'm falling down. I need to do it way sooner.

Wow! I just read this thread for new players starting out:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=58720

What a great forum this is!

Arrian · September 6, 2002, 11:26

ArmaGeddin,

Forbidden Palace placement is crucial to the game. Lacking a Great Leader to rush the FP in a far-off (1 shield) city, you have a strategic choice to make. You can either 1) build the FP close to your capitol, say 2 cities out; or 2) bite the bullet and wait 200 turns for a FP farther out.

The advantage of #1 is that you will get some benifit to your empire relatively quickly, and if you are lucky enough, you can later move your Palace with a GL to optimize your empire. Waiting a full 200 turns for a FP, perfectly placed or not, seems like a bad idea to me. You will get more benifit from one close in that takes 50 turns to build.

Edit: you may find this thread interesting: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=59349

Definitely get out of despotism ASAP. Being able to rushbuy improvements (such as say... courthouses) makes a huge difference, your overall corruption level will drop, and you will get rid of the despotic food/production penalties.

One more suggestion... if you wish to do more fighting, don't build any more archers or swordsmen. Switch over to horsemen. Keep your swords and archers, but horsemen are the wave of the future, because they upgrade to knights.

If you do not intend to fight more (I mean another war of conquest), get rid of all of your archers that aren't elite, and perhaps tone down the number of swords you have. Build a small horseman force for roving strategic defense, and stop there for now. Particularly if you wish to use Republic, unit support can be a killer.

-Arrian

ArmaGeddin · September 6, 2002, 13:50

OK, Last night I put some of this thread into practice...

I started a game as China at Warlord difficulty level and restarted twice so I had a good starting position.

I went into REX and set my science slider to 10%. My science paths were first toward Iron Working and second Monarchy.

I build 4 cities and then attacked with an Archer rush the first AI city I could get to. After taking out the city I made peace and got a tech and some cash.

I traded cash with the AI for most of the early techs, but when I was one tech away from Monarchy I set the slider up to 100% and took a -6 cash flow for the 9 turns needed to get Monarchy, then reset the slider to 0% and changed governments.

By this time I had about 8 cities, and was pushing up against the AI on all sides. I continued to REX until all available land was used up and then went to war with the strongest AI opponent in near by.

Man, Monarchy makes a huge difference in infrastructure changes! Being able to build with cash is a life saver. I let the AI fill in cities around me and just took the ones I wanted. With the science slider at 0% I was takeing in over 100 coin a turn and buying anything I wanted.

I built the Great Library and the techs were comming in without spending money. I built it in my capital because that was where I had the most shields, and waited to cut down trees in the area until I started the project. Then I cut down 3 trees, and got the boost.

I built the FP in the next city over just like you all were telling me, and it worked great! I extended my cities with great shields out to about twice the number I had before.

I entered my Golden Age when I built my first Rider unit and took an AI city with it. Im now in full Rider and Pikeman production mode working toward cleaning up all the AI around me.

Now for the bad part...

Japan has been killing off all the other AI civs, and has a larger empire than I do. The other AI civs are all small or medium sized, and I can clean them up when ever, but Japan is going to be a problem. They are expanding at about the same rate I am, but I have better cities than they do. They are my equal in tech.

OK, now on to my plan for victory.....

I think I will continue to keep my science slider at 0% until the Great Library benifit goes away. In that time I should be able to clean up most if not all the AI cities between my cities and Japan. When the Great Library goes away I will boost my science up to about 60% to 70% and start building my own tech. I will seek to move my Palace to a spot away from the FP and see if I can extend my heavy shield cities out a bit more. I will continue to build my military up with Riders and Pikemen. Just before Japan gets to Musketmen I will attack and wipe them out!

What do you think?

vmxa1 · September 6, 2002, 14:48

Oscillation my friend. I would say that it would be good to have jumped in on Japan to keep it from getting too large if it was close. If it is very far away, then I do not worry. You could have lent a hand by giving the weakling things. I am talking about only conquest victories allowed. If you can win other ways then other strategies are open.

Theseus · September 6, 2002, 14:57

Great job, ArmaGeddin!!

Two things first: Cutting down forest doesn't give a boost to Wonder-building. Re the GLib, you still might want to try researching a tech the AIs aren't, and sell it off for cashola.

A successful AI Japan can be a *****... don;t forget, even without Muskets, the Samurai have a 4 defense, and your Riders won;t be able to retreat.

If you really want to go after them with Riders, draw as many Samurai as possible onto killzones in your own territory. Bombard them on open ground with Cannon (which is the only thing Cannons are really good for), and take'em out with the Riders. This will hopefully get you promotions and GLs close to home as well. After they've dried up, go on the attack.

ArmaGeddin · September 6, 2002, 15:26

Yes, It would have been better if I had hit Japan in the early game, but they were on the other continent. He just now put down cities on my contenent south of an AI civ of me. I still can't get to him without going through that civ.

I did well on those civs close to me though. I would hit one and then the other just like you all said, and it worked great! I got lots of techs and cash from it when they came back for peace.

Ouch! I didn't realize that those trees did nothing for me when building the FP. Thanks for the tip! I'll use them for other things next time.

Yes, Japan is going to be a problem... He is just as powerfull as I am. I have been giving him stuff every time he calls me rather than have him go to war with me.

I figure I will build as I go through the little guys and get my tech up higher than his in the right spots so when I do get to him i'll have a tech advantage. I may attack his cities on my continent and take them from him because they are small and easy to get to, then get a peace treaty going with him while I mop up the small guys.

Arrian · September 6, 2002, 16:24

Japan sounds like a challenge for you. My solution would be Cavalry. Lots and lots of Cavalry.

You don't necessarily have to conquer Japan. Here's my suggestion:

If possible, get yourself a foothold on Japan's home continent. If there is any unclaimed land, build a city on it. That city should get a barracks, temple, walls, harbor, several defensive and bombard units, and nearly you entire offensive force. When you have large numbers of Cavalry, pick a fight with Japan somehow. Your objectives should be:

1) capture luxuries
2) capture, or at least cut off, strategic resources.

Cities that do not offer control of resources are most likely useless to you (unless you intend to use a GL to move your palace to Japan's continent - which isn't something to do lightly). Raze them. Like I said, you do not need to wipe Japan out. Your objective is to hurt them: you gain things, they lose things. Your foothold city will likely growth quite a bit before you can actually launch your attack, so it can be used to rush a couple of settlers, which can be used to replace any cities you wish to keep but are worried may culture flip back to Japan.

If you use Monarchy as a system of government, you should not be at peace for long. If you are, you're not getting the maximum benifit from the government type. Republic and Democracy are the "peace" governments, and they convey huge bonuses to commerce. Monarchy's greatest advantages are the free unit support and lack of war weariness.

-Arrian

ArmaGeddin · September 6, 2002, 16:29

Good thoughts..........

So should I switch governments to Republic when I stop attacking for a bit? Seems kind of expensive in down time. I have been attacking then stoping for a bit to build troops, then attacking again.

Theseus · September 6, 2002, 16:35

NO WAY... not as China, it'll take too long. Stay in Monarchy until you are going to have a looong period of peace.

Arrian · September 6, 2002, 16:36

ArmaGeddin,

How far are you from Democracy? If you want to go into a peaceful builder mode for a while, I'd say wait for Demo, switch over, and try to blow Japan away technologically. Don't fight again until Tanks.

The reason I say wait for Demo is that you are playing a non-religious civ. Therefore, you deal with several turns of anarchy when switching governments. It makes sense to try and minimize those revolutions. Democracy is superior to Republic for peaceful building, particularly in the industrial age, due to the 2x worker speed (coupled with being industrious, wow it rocks). Your RR network will be built in no time.

-Arrian

vmxa1 · September 6, 2002, 18:00

Quote:

Originally posted by ArmaGeddin
Yes, Japan is going to be a problem... He is just as powerfull as I am. I have been giving him stuff every time he calls me rather than have him go to war with me.

I figure I will build as I go through the little guys and get my tech up higher than his in the right spots so when I do get to him i'll have a tech advantage. I may attack his cities on my continent and take them from him because they are small and easy to get to, then get a peace treaty going with him while I mop up the small guys.

No way would I give him anything and help him. Let them get mad and declare war. They will sent troops. You can sink some before they land others that do land will not be a problem as you have home court. If you can not handle a civ that comes for you from another land mass, you are cooked anyway. I love to let them suffer war weariness as I whack all they send my way. I replace a few lossses, they have to replace all. If you can get in a toe hold and follow Arrians advice, do so. If you have your road or better yet get RR up incursion are a breeze. I like to have all tiles on the edges roaded so I can get there and maybe back up, so they can not hit me next round. Make dozen cannon/art or whater you have to run up on them and soften them. Attacks tend to come from the same areas so get ships in place. Bombard them if you can first. Start hurting him.

bbaws · September 7, 2002, 06:28

Fairly simple tip this, never set your sliders to either 0% or 100%. You lose the benefits of either your marketplaces or your libraries by doing this. Even at 10% they do enough to earn their keep.

vmxa1 · September 7, 2002, 13:39

True, zero research is for those that have not built either of those types of structures. I drop to 10% and build them, so that I can use them when I get near the top in techs.

ArmaGeddin · September 9, 2002, 16:37

Well, after I set in motion everything I learned in this thread I stomped Japan and everyone else so easy it was not funny. I ended up sweeping everyone but Japan while in Monarchy, then setting the slider to 90% like you all said and going for Republic. I got way more tech than Japan did fast and I didnt even finish the game because I was stomping all over him and I decided to start a new game at Monarch level.

Look for the adventures of Armageddin in a new thread

where I describe that Monarch game.

vmxa1 · September 9, 2002, 19:25

Great