War Academy: American-Aztec War

adaMada · September 9, 2002, 18:07

Members of the War Academy and other Senators,

I bring this issue to you on behalf of the Foreign Ministry. A new development has occurred in the other major war that may affect us.

America has come into the war on the side of Germany and against the Aztecs (Foreign Ministry Diplomatic Issue #013 Opened). I ask that the War Academy investigate the possibility that the Aztecs will steamroll over the Americans and take their land, which we have long considered to be a yet-undeclared and much coveted province.

I ask that the War Academy consider the affects of this development. Would it be prudent for us to declare war on the Americans earlier than we otherwise would? Will the combined German-American-Greece forces have such little trouble with the Aztec forces that America will be untouched?

Remember also that, should the Aztecs take any American city, Greece or Germany is likely to reclaim that city before the Americans do.

Finally, should we declare war on America early, what military forces would be required? Would it be possible for us, militarily, to fight both America and Persia at the same time? Furthermore, in the unlikely event that Germany was to enter the war on the side of the Americans, would our Army be able to cope?

Thank you.

-- adaMada
Vice-Minister of Foreign Affairs
Acting Foreign Minister

wervdon · September 9, 2002, 18:16

Crud, I didnt even notice that from the turn chat log

I definately say make peace with persia and take the fragrant valley while we can.

GhengisFarb™ · September 9, 2002, 18:30

Quote:

Originally posted by adaMada
I ask that the War Academy investigate the possibility that the Aztecs will steamroll over the Americans and take their land, which we have long considered to be a yet-undeclared and much coveted province.

Not going to happen, the Aztecs would have to march past PEACEFUL? Germans to get to the American cities. Somehow I don't think the Germans are going to be all that "peaceful". The Americans will simply fight the straglers and deserters of the Aztec Army. Even they can handle that.

Reddawg · September 9, 2002, 18:37

Even if the Americans WERE threatened by the Aztecs, do you not think that declaring war with them would be an antagonizing act with respect to their newfound allies the Germany? As well as the other nations with whom the Aztecs are at war with. I think our hands are tied. But I don't think the Aztecs will do anything.

adaMada · September 9, 2002, 18:55

Ghengis: Germans are also at war with the Aztecs, and are actually the people who pulled America into the war.

Reddawg, I noted the idea that we might find ourselves in another war with Germany in the Foreign Ministry Office Diplo. Issue #12 write up. For this thread, though, I'm more interested in if we could deal with it if it happens -- if its starting to look like we might need to go to war based on the Military Analysis, I'll request a diplomatic one from the Machiavelli Institute.

I highly recommend that everyone read the Foreign Ministry Analysis (issue #012) if they've got a second (it's not that long) -- it's a nice little summary of the problem. (Of course, considering I wrote it, I'm rather likely to think that

).

-- adaMada

Aggie · September 9, 2002, 18:55

I haven't thought of extra forces, but here is the time involved. I will take 6 turns for infantry to get fry tyre to the american front. Horse can get there in 3. It is three more turns fron tyre to gordium, so if we wait for the war with the persians to be over (stage 1), wec an be invading america in 9 turns.
Aggie

adaMada · September 9, 2002, 18:59

Aggie,
If we diverted those forces from the Persian front, could we still keep the cities we'd taken/own?

Also, does anyone have an opinion as to weather the Aztecs can even threaten America? If we all agree they can't (which I'd be inclined to), then maybe we don't have to do this...

-- adaMada

Aggie · September 9, 2002, 19:07

My estimates are we would need another army of 6sword and 4 horse to take over america quickly, we could launch and attack of 3sword and 2 horse at NY and wash at the same time to secure the iron. Then the east takes Boston and west finsished of chicago, let me urge no attack be launched until chicago is size 2. It would not be a sin to create this force anyway so we can respond quckly and decisuvely against any invasion.
adamada after we take the persian cities we will hold them with one pike and 1sword for the fron cities. So we could spare that force once peace was declared. By the end of this next turnthread we will have a force of 7sword ready to pounce. I am planning on the following attack for persia. The forces currently there will fight off the archer forces. This other force will go from uber and take sidon. Then north to tyre where it will join with the rest of the forces from the fighting out west. Then they will go toward gordium.
Aggie

Aggie · September 9, 2002, 19:17

did ya'll notice philli on the north coast. That si the only city threatened by the aztecs, so i see no danger.
Aggie

GhengisFarb™ · September 9, 2002, 21:39

I'm going to post this again since NOBODY read my first post.

The Aztecs aren't going to take America because they would have to take Germany first as Germany's not going to let a nation their at war with just walk by their cities unmolested.

When we see German cities turn Aztec Green, then we should consider the possibility of someone getting America first.

adaMada · September 9, 2002, 21:56

Quote:

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
I'm going to post this again since NOBODY read my first post.

The Aztecs aren't going to take America because they would have to take Germany first as Germany's not going to let a nation their at war with just walk by their cities unmolested.

When we see German cities turn Aztec Green, then we should consider the possibility of someone getting America first.

Read it, but didn't reply, because I basically agree. I think that the Aztecs have too much on their hands to mount an offensive into America, personally. Having said that, if they were able to, it would be a threat for us, which is why I brought the issue before the War Academy to see if anyone thinks they have the forces to do it.

-- adaMada

ManicStarSeed · September 9, 2002, 22:37

One of my favorate stratages involves allying with the underdog (americans), stand by with settlers and troops. I watch the stronger nation (aztecs) raze and capture the cities (while diminishing the HP of involved units). If it is razed, I have settlers to take the spot and if they capture the city, I have offensive units to claim the city quickly. You even look good as you aquire (american cities)

This is really usually just a stalling tactic. It allows one to finish business properly (war with persia) and respond in time to liberate those captuered cities (america).

The real questions are
Will the aztecs actually get to american cities with germany between them?
How does Greece factor into this? I have this feeling that any agression towars america will be frowned upon

Lastly,
I am not sure that it would work without being at us being at war with germany. Better yet would be an alliance with the americans against the germans.

Also, I am at a little disadvantage right now...

I am unsure of the political spectrum. Can anyone direct me to the thread with a current summation of all the ongoing wars and pacts?

Is it Greece, England & Germany (+ America) vs England & Aztecs?
and Us vs Persia?
Is there anything else going on ou there?

I can not view more than the 7 other civs in the foreign advisor. Am I missing something there? Is there a logic to who is shown? Is it changable?

I digress...

....Or should we just cut the persian wars short and just take the fragrant vally for ourselves (and hope greece doesnt feel threatend).

One last note... has anyone noticed the Persian cities of Samaria and Sardis? The Aztecs will want those cities in the next 200 years or so. Germany might be tempted by an easy aquisition.....

Well I hope that was coherent...

Mss

adaMada · September 9, 2002, 22:45

If you've got a bit of time, check out the Foreign Ministry Office thread... the diplomatic issues that are marked 'current' take you through all the major wars that anyone has had (and peace) from the beginning of the term.

Sadly, I'm not sure if there's a more concise resource, so I'll write something that might help a bit. This is off the top of my head, so sorry if it's inaccurate.

We're at war with Persia. (We were at war with France and Germany, but we've ended both of those).

The Germans, Greeks, and Americans are at war with the Aztecs (Greeks-Germans have pact, and Germans-Americans). The English were in this war before against the Greeks only, but they just bowed out last turn.

Reddawg · September 9, 2002, 22:52

Quote:

Originally posted by adaMada
I highly recommend that everyone read the Foreign Ministry Analysis (issue #012) if they've got a second (it's not that long) -- it's a nice little summary of the problem. (Of course, considering I wrote it, I'm rather likely to think that

).

-- adaMada

nice, nice.... wanna update it with a link to the latest stats?

ManicStarSeed · September 9, 2002, 22:53

Thanx

for the speedy reply..

Mss

adaMada · September 9, 2002, 22:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Reddawg

nice, nice.... wanna update it with a link to the latest stats?

Oh, oops. Forgot that was out of date

. I'll get it at next update (if I don't, PM me and shout at me a bit, and then I will, lol).

Of course, it'd be a lot easier if you posted an index thread, like I suggested you do a while ago

, but I guess I can be not-lazy and update mine anyway

.

-- adaMada

BigFurryMonster · September 10, 2002, 09:16

Quote:

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed
I can not view more than the 7 other civs in the foreign advisor. Am I missing something there? Is there a logic to who is shown? Is it changable?

Yes. Use Shift+Right Click on a leader's head in the Foreign Advisor screen to change it.

Also, Shift-D in the normal screen allows you to speak to anyone who is willing to.

adaMada · September 10, 2002, 18:40

Urgant Horseman has returned from the frontlines, where President Mr. WIA, acting SMC Aggie, City Planner GodKing, Regional Manager OPD, and acting Foreign Minister adaMada are monitoring affairs. Horseman is bearing the following message from acting Foreign Minister adaMada:

Quote:

Germany and Greece have just declared peace with the Axtecs, leaving only America. This will greatly change situations. Please inform War Academy and ask them to consider. adaMada

adaMada · September 11, 2002, 16:40

No thoughts at all about this major development? Don't make me decide all by myself...

-- adaMada

Donegeal · September 11, 2002, 17:04

America can wait. With Persia, its now or never. Onward to the Pryamids!

History Guy · September 11, 2002, 18:02

Well, this is my opinion...

The Aztecs will not be conquering the Americans any time soon, in my opinion anyway. Unless the Aztecs make peace with Germany, improve friendships, and establish a right-of-passage pact with them, I see no way that they can even get to America, let alone conquer any bit of it. However, if they did get this sort of thing, the Americans would be destroyed. Yet, I don't see this situation occurring any time soon, if at all.

As for the Americans, I think that they are already outgrowing any usefulness as a vassal state, other than to accumulate gold and give it to us in tribute. They can do little enough as it is, and they have some very valuable land. Perhaps, then, once Persia is out of the way, we might be able to somehow "create" a situation with America, without damaging out reputation, and move in for the kill.

However, at this moment, I think our eyes should rest upon the Persians, and as Donegeal says, we should move on to the Pyramids.

adaMada · September 11, 2002, 21:59

donegeal,
That's the question this thread asks -- can the Americans wait? Will they still be here by the time we finish with the Persians? And does that matter (you seem to think not, which is a valid opinion).

History Guy,
The Aztecs have already made peace with Germany. I don't know if they'll be able to get through their terratory, but the Aztecs are now only at war with America, and are probably still pumping military units out. There's a good chance that America may come under heavy attack soon.

Can I have anyone who's better with military estimates give their opinion as to if the Americans are at risk of extinction?

-- adaMada

GhengisFarb™ · September 11, 2002, 22:11

I do not feel the Americans are at risk.

1) It will take the Aztecs a while to get there and they most likely initiated the peace talks as they were fighting both Greece and Germany. The stronger allies are not usually the first ones to make peace, so America would have been the first one on the AntiAztec Alliance to try to come to peace with the Aztecs if there side was not winning.

The Aztecs didn't make peace with the Americans because they probably used all their resources to get peace with the others.

2) They haven't been building units as 3 of there best cities have been locked building wonders. One recently finished the Lighthouse and two others are currently building wonders. A civ bent on conquering another civ doesn't usually commit so much resources to wonder building.

My analysis anyway,

Donegeal · September 11, 2002, 22:44

What do the Americans have that we won't get from the Persians if we follow through with Plan Onion? Sure they have some nice wheat on flood plains and some extra Incense (which we would have to connect once we got it) but Persia has preconnected extra Incense AND Spice. If faced with a choice of big war with Persia or small war with America, I'd go for the big one.

We throw the FP into Persian homeland and Bingo! We double the power of our Glorious Nation.

Hmmm... starting to get off topic.. sorry.

wervdon · September 11, 2002, 23:13

Quote:

America would have been the first one on the AntiAztec Alliance to try to come to peace with the Aztecs if there side was not winning.

America can't make peace until its been at war for 5 turns, it may of been by now, but id have to count turns in the summaries.

MrWhereItsAt · September 12, 2002, 02:02

One thing at a time. We are pushing an advantage with Persia, whilst keeping well out of the other disputes. Not once in the chats recently have any American units appeared, and thus I really don't think they are a threat to us. Many other civ's units are travelling North through French and American land (Greeks, Romans, the odd Russian), and show no signs of queuing at our borders, which I notice they tend to do in the tension before a war.

So long as we don't tell any Greeks to vacate our land or declare war....

adaMada · September 16, 2002, 14:50

Sorry to push this thread back up again, but there's been a new development...

First, an update to what I said earlier. My message from the front was in error; Greece is still at war with the Aztecs, but Germany did declare peace. My apologies.

Secondly, it's just been noticed that Philadelphia has been destroyed (see a few posts down for a map). Right now, there is only speculation as to what happened, but it seems likely that the Aztecs raized it. This may or may not affect our decision making here, but would seem to dispell the idea that the Aztecs are incapable of damaging the Americans.

Does this change anything?

-- adaMada

Aggie · September 16, 2002, 15:04

This doesn't really change much and I had foreseen this and I did mention in early post that Philadelphia was the main vulnerable city since they were right by aztect territoy. However we can revaluate the situation and see if any other fighting takes place, it will take a few turns for the army to come south. Remember that any army that did come south still needs to go through germany.
Aggie

=OttomusCeasar= · September 16, 2002, 15:11

Are we at war with either of them? If not, what concern is it to us?

Aggie · September 16, 2002, 15:24

Well we just don't want aztects taking the americans, with the incense in the south the incense in america could give us a virtual monopoly on incense and we could trade the iron too. Though I suspect captured cities could flip to us too(especially the ones in se america) so it might not be a big deal.
Aggie