Is Alpha Centauri Intellectually Discriminating? - Page 3

Cybergod · September 24, 2002, 13:53

Quote:

Civ2 is not a property of Firaxis

Isn't it?

I thought that it was all the same company...

On Topic:
The more I look at the modern world, the more I see free will, freedom and liberty being twisted from their original values...

gwillybj · September 24, 2002, 23:50

Quote:

... SMAC designers have deliberately avoided using Civ2 terms in SMAC. I wonder why...

Because this is SMAC not Civ?

I'm not sorry to say it is a little bit irritating to see SMAC things referred to by Civ terms. One frequent example: They are SECRET PROJECTS not wonders! Ick!

Where did I put those tranquilizers?

The Vagabond · September 25, 2002, 02:51

Well, Secret Projects may not be Wonders. But why 'nutrients', not 'food'? Why 'colony pod', not 'settler'? The designers clearly did their best to introduce new terms. Fortunately for them, the English language is so rich that was not a problem.

If they need to invent a brand-new terminology for a new game, they'll always have the option of using 'aliments' instead of 'nutrients'.

The Vagabond · September 25, 2002, 02:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Cybergod
Isn't it?

I thought that it was all the same company...

Civ2 belonged to Microprose, and then to the company that bought Microprose.

tonic · September 25, 2002, 09:15

A simple resolution of the argument about terminology in SMAC vis-a-vis Civ is that SMAC is essentially science fiction while Civ is quasi-history.

Cybergod · September 25, 2002, 13:14

@ tonic - I couldn't agree more.

Play Civ to re-create and alter history to your liking

Play SMAC to create the future to your liking...

The Vagabond · September 25, 2002, 20:19

What you write is obvious, Tonic.

Many terms indeed had to be changed, but not all of them, unless there was some additional motivation for that.

Sikander · September 26, 2002, 02:14

Quote:

Originally posted by The Vagabond
If they need to invent a brand-new terminology for a new game, they'll always have the option of using 'aliments' instead of 'nutrients'.

Or victuals (vittles in the hillbilly language version).

Cybergod · September 26, 2002, 17:25

What about carbohydrates, vitamins etc...

Joke aside, I was never comfortable with the concept of energy which can be converted into anything... (econ/lab/psych/trade)

Tommara · September 26, 2002, 18:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Cybergod
What about carbohydrates, vitamins etc...

Joke aside, I was never comfortable with the concept of energy which can be converted into anything... (econ/lab/psych/trade)

Why? It's just being used as a medium of exchange, like money or gold.

GeneralTacticus · September 26, 2002, 18:14

It also has rather more practical value than money or gold.

MattyBoy · September 26, 2002, 21:59

Who knows where I can find a Hillbillies mod for SMAC?

gwillybj · September 27, 2002, 20:05

Has anyone else noticed that the

No:Yes

vote ratio is roughly 3:2? (currently 19:12) (Or am I just weird enough to notice?)

Also, Energy as currency makes sense if you picture it as large arrays of capacitors being drained by usage and recharged by solar collectors and transmission of power between locations, whether by wire or physical storage (batteries).
Remember California in the summer of 2000 (or was it 1999?), and how they had to go shopping for electricity? Large numbers of the general public lost a lot of their savings having to pay those higher prices, but you can be sure a few corporate big-wigs came out of it with their coffers padded very nicely.

Cybergod · September 28, 2002, 06:30

But what I can't grip is how can you use energy as a curency? What, you go home from work, with a battery charged with "energy credits"???

GeneralTacticus · September 28, 2002, 06:49

ECs are used as currency between factions and for largescale projects within them. Presumably there would be a seperate system for citizens buying consumer goods, which there is no need to represent in the game.

Tommara · September 28, 2002, 08:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Cybergod
But what I can't grip is how can you use energy as a curency? What, you go home from work, with a battery charged with "energy credits"???

Actually, I don't go home with anything except a piece of paper. I, in turn, buy things by giving people other pieces of paper, either ones I wrote myself which gives instructions to my bank, or ones preprinted by the government. Or I give them a card, which they even give back to me!

It's a very interesting system, one that works only because we believe it does. Once we stop believing in it, it fails utterly.

But having been taught to believe in this one, I can see how we could easily be taught to believe in another, even batteries charged with "energy credits". And if we did stop believing in that one for some reason, as General Tacticus alluded to, energy has value inherent within itself, unlike the pieces of paper we believe in today.

Cybergod · September 28, 2002, 17:55

Quote:

Originally posted by MattyBoy
Who knows where I can find a Hillbillies mod for SMAC?

Cybergod · September 28, 2002, 18:00

BTW Tommara, that is an interesting view on the human concept of currency, and a very pragmatic one, I must say.

And I see yer point - if we can use pieces of paper, why not "batteries"? But I don't believe it would ever catch on here (Earth)...

GeneralTacticus, so you suggest ordinary mortals cannot be trusted with energy credits?

Cybergod · September 28, 2002, 18:02

Strangelly enough we have rapidly changed the topic in this thread:

1st it was whether the concepts of Talents and Drones were discriminating

2nd whether Free Will exists

3rd Microprose

(was this a deliberatelly placed advert from their secret infiltrators?)

4th Energy Credits

With a bizzare list of twists and turns...

GeneralTacticus · September 28, 2002, 21:31

Quote:

GeneralTacticus, so you suggest ordinary mortals cannot be trusted with energy credits?

Well think about it. A faction is doing well economically if they can manage a few hundred ECs per turn surplus. Then think of all the people necessary to produce that surplus. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands. If the ECs were actually meant as an internal currency system, then the individual units would be a lot smaller (imagine if the basic US unit of currency was a 1 million dollar note).

Clear Skies · September 29, 2002, 16:26

So the population at large would use microcredits maybe, as opposed to the macrocreds traded between factions...

Cybergod · September 29, 2002, 17:15

Macro - Micro
An interesting concept. But still, how can there be a universal rule about exactly how many kW generated by Solar Collectors produce ECs, for example? And it could be possibly hard to come up with the distinction between energy that you pump into economy and "energy" that comes out in form of money.

Cybergod · September 29, 2002, 17:17

And while on the subject on pumping energy, why can't you rush-buy research like you do production... Would make my life much easier...

Kirov · October 4, 2002, 04:21

I understand that when you allocate 'energy' to 'labs', then it's simply a part of your budget that is spent to salaries, equipment, etc. etc. In that case it's understable why it's not possible to rush-buy researches (even if you would spent whole budget of the US you would not have been able to sent men to Mars in let's say a few months - proper training of the crew would take much longer, I suppose).

Tommara: are you up to continue our discussion?

Tommara · October 7, 2002, 14:46

Sure! It was quite fun.

aaglo · October 8, 2002, 02:08

The game is NOT intellectually discriminating. It just correctly represents the human nature.

Jmaster · October 8, 2002, 17:55

Saying the game is intellectually discriminating is saying that someone doubts your potential. You are judged by something completely unrelated to your performance. It's like saying: 'Oh, you're from one of the dumb families, you get to work in the factory doing manual labor'. However, drones are simply people who don't agree with your policies and refuse to do anything productive. They could be geniuses, but they are dissatisfied with you for some reason, usually because you didn't provide them with good enough opportunities to succeed.

On a side note, it would be interesting to compare drones and talents in democratic vs. socialist states. I think democracy creates an intellectual elite but socialism creates a dissatesfied people under the heels of a corrupt government, so both create this spectrum of drones and talents.

On the energy credit thing, I think energy is a very valuable currency. You can do anything with it: run lights, heat a house, manufacture goods, power research labs, and even run a fuel cell car. I believe that hydrogen fuel cell cars are the wave of the future.

Kirov · October 9, 2002, 22:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Tommara
To Kirov: I'm not sure why a problem approached by logic would result in a different answer than one approached by common sense, unless an error had occurred somewhere.

Let's say you're given the choice: either you will obey an order or you will be shot down. In logic sense, you have a choice, but would you really feel free in such a situation? According to common sense, you don't have a choice.

Quote:

I'm sorry if I offended you by referring to differences in our two cultures as being a possible reason for differences in our point of view. It just seemed to me to be a perfectly valid reason for the differences in our conclusions. I'm only now just beginning to understand why people might hate Americans for the things we take for granted.

No offense taken. I also think that difference between West and East has a very great impact of one's opinions, beliefs, etc. I believe you don't consider your freedom as a precious but frail thing that can be so easily taken from you, from instance. I'm not trying to say that every Polish think that way, I'm just saying that because of living here I don't consider freedom as so... obvious.

I can easily imagine why there are people hating Americans, but firstly tell me what are those things you take for granted?

Tommara · October 10, 2002, 00:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirov

Let's say you're given the choice: either you will obey an order or you will be shot down. In logic sense, you have a choice, but would you really feel free in such a situation? According to common sense, you don't have a choice.

The original issue was whether or not "free will" and "doing what one is supposed to" are mutually exclusive. I said they were not mutually exclusive, because they can both occur at the same time. That does not preclude them NOT occurring at the same time. That double negative might be confusing, but I hope you understand what I mean.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirov
No offense taken. I also think that difference between West and East has a very great impact of one's opinions, beliefs, etc. I believe you don't consider your freedom as a precious but frail thing that can be so easily taken from you, from instance. I'm not trying to say that every Polish think that way, I'm just saying that because of living here I don't consider freedom as so... obvious.

I can easily imagine why there are people hating Americans, but firstly tell me what are those things you take for granted?

Um, maybe because I do consider freedom as so...obvious.

Seriously, it's difficult to know what one takes for granted. That's kind of like knowing what you don't know. I can think of many things that I should appreciate more than I do, but once I begin to know this, I'm not really taking it for granted it anymore, am I?

spartak · October 10, 2002, 03:47

I can't believe we are discussing this.