The GL debate

[notyoueither]

Apologies to all, but I feel this is necessary.

Before the ink is dry on the ballots of the new administration, some parties have launched some interesting polls on the use for our Great Leader. I do not contest that things have been debated, however...

The first poll regarding 'What do we do with our great leader', found here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=61922
asked a question with 4 options. Two of the options were Army and Great Wonder. GW has garnered 46% as of right now. Army, 38%. Alright, close. So then...

A second poll is launched asking 'What do we do with our great leader(Runoff)', found here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=61966
asks for a decision between Army and a specific wonder, that being Sun Tsu's. Sun Tsu's is currently polling 75%. So then...

In this thread:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=62131
discussion proceeds as if a binding decision has been made to build Sun Tsu's.

I cry foul.

First off, the build ques are the domain of the City Planner, not the military. What is a deputy SMC and soon to be SMC doing polling this question? Not that he cannot, any of us can, but shouldn't we allow the City Planner a voice in all this? Did he agree with the polls begun by the SMC?

Second and most importantly, the run off between the options of Army and Sun Tzu's is a farce. No other wonder options are presented and none discussed in any detail (practically).

The reason for this thread? Good you asked. Should I, or some other citizen challenge those polls by petitioning the court to declare one or both of them as invalid? I thought about just doing it myself. I am a citizen. I too can PM a justice with a complaint. However, I felt it better to put the issue out there for discussion and to see if any others are disturbed by the progress of the GL debate.

Questions? Comments? Rotten vegetable matter?

[nz_upy]

In response to other options to Sun Tzu's or an Army being discussed. They have. To choose another option means holding on to the GL until another wonder becomes available to us and this means that we give up the chance that our elite units in the field have to produce another GL however slim that maybe.
The general consensus among the citizenry is that we shouldn't wait but use the GL now in the hope of another one in the near future.

[kring]

That is the reason I asked if the first poll was official. If it was/is official, I would question starting the second poll while the first poll was still open.

[notyoueither]

Unfortunately kring, the way our CoL is worded all polls are official unless they brand themselves as unofficial. Crazy but true.

Part of the reason there is a Consitututional Convention movement afoot.

[Aggie]

NYE, the reason for the poll was this, "I wanted to see what the people thought, since we only had three days the quicker it got started, the better. I did asked the peole in the chat about what options to put in. Since I saw no other polls I started this one, in my eyes since I didn't put official on it I didn't think it was official, just advisory. I then started the second poll because I saw quickly that several of the options were favored and it would be best to get the 2 leading options. The reason I put Sun Tsu there was this, we only had the tech for it not any other and to the best of my knowledge the only way to get theology was through peace with persia( a decision already discarded) or through buying it(something that didn't seem likely). So to be as specific as possible I put those two options in only. I wanted to see what the people wanted. Looking back I could have put in Sistine chapel, along with a (we buy theology) option. I made a mistake when I didn't say "everbody do the new poll" in the first thread. Now to a larger issue "Who does control a GL?" He is a unit, yet he can disband to build things in cities or he can form an army. I see the cp and smc are the main ministers involved, but I think i the end the people MUST vote on such a thing, since the COL is silent on this and since it is of such large importance. In my opinion the same is true for trading cities away. I take some offense when you say the runoff was a farce, it wasn't. To the best of my understanding those seemed to be the options available and buying theology to get the sistine chapel did not seem an option. Personally I like all options since an army would have guarentee one less defender in every city(after attack) and of course the adbantages of the other wonders is clear, we can barracks or more 6 happy people with cathedral, so our cites could grow and grow(combined with pyranmids this is double deadly). In short the purpose of the poll was to understand the will of the people, however for the record such a poll isn't necessary. However in my opinion it would have been unethical to make this decision without consulting the people, which has been done. I am thus to some degree proud of what was done here.
Aggie

[=OttomusCeasar=]

Well a GL is military personnel, it is a warlord arising from the direct result of an Elite military unit winning a battle.

Who controls their creation? The SMC.

Who commands the military units? The SMC.

While it is a major asset I think it is best put under the powers of the SMC as that is definitely the arena that it relates to. Consider it a boon of a well thought out battle plan.

Now in relation to what it builds, the CP has to authorize a cities build queue for the GL to finish the production. So both the CP and SMC have to work together to build anything other than an Army.

I feel that after all this discussion, Sun Tzu is by far the most logical decision to be made.

[Robber Baron]

As one who feels that buying Theology and building the Chapel is the way to go, I feel the best option was not given a fair hearing.
And IMO, to define a great leader a "unit" give the SMC way too much power.

[Donal Graeme]

I'll second that Robber_Baron. Besides moving the GL about and making sure he isn't attacked, the SMC shouldn't have lone control of such an important asset. This is something that needs to be decided by the CC. Also, i feel that the Sistine Chapel has also not been given enough consideration. Making Cathedrals, cheap cathedrals make six people content is the way to go. That will allow our cities to get really big, and produce more shields and commerce. That is a good thing, more so than getting barracks everywhere. I'd rather build the Chapel and use the extra commerce it allows us to build and maintain the barracks, then build Sun Tsu's Art of War.

[GhengisFarb™]

I haven't seen anyone argue that Sun Tzu is better than the Sistine. I have seen people argue that sacrificing 3 or more GLs "for a chance" to build the Sistine is extremely costly.

The only civ I see giving us Theology is Persia because they know they won't build it if we conquer all their cities.

We currently posses a GL. No AI civ is going to trade us a technology with a Great Wonder attached that they are trying to build while we own a GL. Their programming DID take that into consideration.

[vulture]

Originally posted by Robber Baron
As one who feels that buying Theology and building the Chapel is the way to go, I feel the best option was not given a fair hearing.
And IMO, to define a great leader a "unit" give the SMC way too much power.

If we could afford to buy Theology now, you might have a point, but I don't think we can, and doubt we will be able to for many turns yet. Keeping a leader hanging around when there is a war on and plenty of elite units involved is equivalent to throwing a leader (or half a leader) away, 'cos we can't get a new one while the old one is still around. Saving the leader for later is a bad strategy IMHO.

[GePap]

If we wait on Sun Tzu's we might not get it at all, since all civs with feudalism have been building it since they got that tech. I agree with GenghisFarb, that holding the GL is not a wise move, since more caould be generated. More importantly, I don't know if we will get more GL's, I don't even really care: Another civ getting Sun Tzu's is a great danger, it makes them much more powerful militarilly, and since it never expires, this means tha civs becomes a military danger for ever. As GenghisFab also added, Sun Tzu greatly increases possible GL creation, perhaps helping us garner various other Great wonders which come down the road.

As for who's authority it is, its never been spelled out in the CoL, so our SMC took initiative. As for it having to be the City Planner: since rushing something takes only 1 turn, it is hardly really a nuissance for this office, plus, since the GL event can't be planned for, it seems hard for it to be fit into City planner.

I hae no problem with a new poll, a final poll, on what to do with the GL once OPD takes over officially for the next turns, but it need to be done soon, and I say, that those that want to wait to get Theology have better come up with a good plan to do it swiftly, as in the next turns to be played, since many may not feel like holding the GL is a great idea and this most certainly will weakn any such plan, if it calls for possibly getting theology in x- amount of time. remember, if any civ soon gets Sun Tzu's, the loosers will probably shift for the Chapel, and we might end up with neither if we hesitate.

[Aggie]

Here is something we could discuss, an idea for an amendment to the code of laws.
"Being that the use of a Great Leader(GL) is something that is beyond any ministers power, the use of a GL must be determined by a poll that list the following options for the GL, these options will be
1) Save for Later
2) Army
3) Any wonder that can be built with current or currently aquireable techs.(A vote for wonder that requires aquiring a tech, is considered an order to the FAM to aquire this tech immediately)
This poll will run from the time the chat ends until the beggining of the next turn chat.
It is the SMC job to protect the GL and move him to the desired location, and the CP's job to arrange the build order's so as to accomadate the building of a wonder."

This will prevent such debates in the future.
Aggie

[Proserpine]

I agree with GhengisFarb's comments.

In addition, with RobberBaron, I think that giving exclusive control of GLs to the military branch gives the SMC way too much power. There should be an official, binding poll of the People on such an important matter. When to build is a matter for CP/PW.

[Aggie]

When to build must be given in the poll, if the wait option doesn't win then the wonder must be built as soon as possible, the smc,cp,pw,fam have to follow the poll. There can't be a "well we need to wait a few turns" ability for cp. Also i did check, the best deal on theology is this 181g and 25gpt. If you think we should get the sistine by all means pm togas and demand we buy theology, if it is obvious that most people want that, then we can do it this turnchat,otherwise it will be Sun Tsu.
Aggie

[GhengisFarb™]

Simply put, the people's will for the use of a GL must be specified before the Presidient begins any turnplay. When this one is used we must specify our will for the next one before turnplay.

The President must know what that GL's purpose is when it is generated. Otherwise we risk playing 4 turns with a frozen GL, or an immediate stop of gameplay while we debate on its use for a week.

The next 5 turns will be played in less than 12 hours if I'm not misinformed and I believe most people side with building Sun Tzu immediately.

My opinion is use this one for Sun Tzu. The next GL should be used for the Sistine Chapel if it is available to us, or an Army if it is not.

[notyoueither]

I appreciate your response Aggie.

However, I must say that I do not regard your polls as valid (the second one mostly). The use of a great leader is too important to be rushed. It would be better to skip a chat (or two even) and get it right than to barge ahead over all objections, would it not?

I say this because I can see that I am not alone in my opinion. Ministers should be careful in the excercise of their authority. We have never had one impeached. It would be a shame if the new govt got embroiled in a lengthy and unpleasant case before the court before the term began.

I am very serious. You seem to be attempting to rush a very important decision. I would also point out that your second poll cannot be regarded in any way as official, since I just noticed that it is closed after only two days. The result therefore is not binding on the president or any other official.

[jdjdjd]

I have some problems, not with Aggie, but with this thread. For such a thread to be started by a member of the Court could be deemed prejudicial since members of the Court possibly are looked on as experts in legal matters, and thus that by the very nature of nye's objection, Aggie's poll is unconstitutional. So I will counteract that prejudice with some of my own.....

Aggie concede's the poll is unofficial, and based on a prior court decision, Trevman v. UberrKruX, such action as taken by Aggie, admitting his poll is unofficial, is sufficient to make a poll unofficial.

I think the CoL does need clarification as to this, something for the Constitutional Convention. But for now based on the CoL IMHO, Aggie is allowed to make a poll, the poll is unofficial, and the Ministers do not need to rely on it or anything to decide what happens to a GL. As to who makes the decision, the SMC, City Planner and the President should be involved, and an official poll of the people would be appropriate. OPD should step up as soon as he is President and make this his first official act.

As for my opinion on what to do, I agree on Sun Tsu (and yes I am a builder when I play), my main thought is not to waste potential future GLs from being created because a current GL sitting around collecting dust. There is siginificant benefit to having the barracks for free. The Sistine Chapel is awesome, but to buy it now will be costly to purchase, or to take peace with Persia too early.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
I have seen people argue that sacrificing 3 or more GLs "for a chance" to build the Sistine is extremely costly.

We would be lucky to get another during the current war with Persia. It could happen. However, many players play a war like style through an entire game and get only one GL.

To say '3 or more' leads me to question your choices.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by jdjdjd
I have some problems, not with Aggie, but with this thread. For such a thread to be started by a member of the Court could be deemed prejudicial since members of the Court possibly are looked on as experts in legal matters, and thus that by the very nature of nye's objection, Aggie's poll is unconstitutional. So I will counteract that prejudice with some of my own.....

I thought it better to discuss than to bush whack by filing a complaint myself. I can do that, right?

I also wanted to gauge opinion on the conduct of those polls that are being presented as being the decision of the people.

I see that I am not alone.

[UnOrthOdOx]

We have a few hours left. THIS MUST BE DECIDED BEFORE THE CHAT! Either to cancel the chat, (thus violating the CoL based on the new amendment, but that is a whole other topic), or to wait for the use of the GL. No one is likely going to build Sun Tzu in the next 5 turns, but it would prevent us an opportunity for another GL.

NYE, I think the concern is that Judges must APPEAR to be impartial. How can one now take these to court when you have so vocally pronounced your opinion and expect an impartial and fair trial.

Other methods could have been used to get this into the open. PMing someone outside of the court, perhaps? I would be happy to hear out your concerns in private and post if something like this arises in the future, thus maintaining the impartiality of the court...

[Togas]

Originally posted by Aggie
Also i did check, the best deal on theology is this 181g and 25gpt. If you think we should get the sistine by all means pm togas and demand we buy theology

Just as a note. There is no way I'm going to buy Theology for (181 + 25*20 [500]) 681 lytons. We will not have Theology until we are given it by Persia, or until the price drops substantially.

There is no provision in the CoL for how to deal with GLs. He is a military unit, however, building a GW probably falls upon the control of the City Planner.

In any case, this is a joint decision. I think it's good that the poll was made and the issue discussed.

Constitution v2.0 will deal with this situation.

--Togas

[Aggie]

Originally posted by notyoueither

I say this because I can see that I am not alone in my opinion. Ministers should be careful in the excercise of their authority. We have never had one impeached. It would be a shame if the new govt got embroiled in a lengthy and unpleasant case before the court before the term began.

I am very serious. You seem to be attempting to rush a very important decision. I would also point out that your second poll cannot be regarded in any way as official, since I just noticed that it is closed after only two days. The result therefore is not binding on the president or any other official.

NYE I respect you greatly, however this threat was inappropriate, I qoute the consitution and specificly the amendment on impeachment
"a. An official can be impeached only if they have violated the Code of Laws in place at the time of the violation."

I assume I am the person you are referring to in the impeachment threat, I have not violated any laws, so an impeachment is not called for, yes the poll could be declared invalid, but since the poll WASN'T necessary I fail to see how setting up an optional invalid poll consitutes violating the COL.

You seem to feel strongly about this so I suggest if you desire to persue this issue you do the following, this is a more reasonable course of action.(Though I oppose this too, but I can see how you might want this.)
"d. Injunctions:
The Court cannot halt the game to make a decision without a 2/3 vote amongst the people. In case of an emergency due to timing of a turnchat and poll of the populace, the Court may halt the game for 72 hours, but only by unanimous vote of the Court and only if a specific case has been presented to them that must be decided prior to the turnchat. In the emergency case, the Court would immediately have to present a 72 hour poll to the people for their approval of the Injunction. If not approved by the time of the poll's closure, the game immediately resumes where it was before. "

I hope if you feel there is a legal question, that you persue this course. I don't see how there is any case here, since there are no rules for using a great leader, but if you want to; go for it(the courts been bored anyway), but I would much rather MWIA had his final turnchat in peace. The best idea would be to incorporate what I and Ghengis have written above, into the new laws your commitee will work on. I do understand that intelligent people can disagree and do not take personal offense.
Still Respecfully
Aggie

[Aggie]

Togas that is what I thought and is why I didn't include the sistine chapel in the poll. But thank you for coming out and saying it.
Aggie

[notyoueither]

Alright UnOrtho. Thanks for the offer, however to me that would be a sham. I would be hiding my bias.

Are judges biased? You bet. We all play the game too. We all have opinions. The important bit is when we make decisions that we make then in accord with the CoL rather than our own opinions. In this matter, I would be extrememly deferential to the positions of the other members of the court.

There are other merits to this thread. However, the original question is now moot. The reason for this thread? Good you asked. Should I, or some other citizen challenge those polls by petitioning the court to declare one or both of them as invalid? I thought about just doing it myself. I am a citizen. I too can PM a justice with a complaint. However, I felt it better to put the issue out there for discussion and to see if any others are disturbed by the progress of the GL debate.

That has been addressed by Aggie. But I would like to stress that to use a 2 day poll that was not well conceived as the guide to the true will of the people would be a mistake. There is a reason official polls must run 3 days, and there is a reason there are rules in how the questions are arrived at.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Aggie
I assume I am the person you are referring to in the impeachment threat, I have not violated any laws, so an impeachment is not called for, yes the poll could be declared invalid, but since the poll WASN'T necessary I fail to see how setting up an optional invalid poll consitutes violating the COL.

It was not a threat Aggie. Please do not regard it that way. I would really rather not have to deal with such a matter in the court if possible.

What I saw, was a minister polling with invalid polls and then seeming to proceed as if those polls were both official and valid. That might be a problem, yes?

[UnOrthOdOx]

/me looks at his watch...

I have a few hours of authority left, I will go and make an OFFICIAL poll, then. And, I will petition MrWIA NOT to use the GL in the next five turns. The only thing that will lose us is the remote possibility of another GL.

[Aggie]

Originally posted by notyoueither

What I saw, was a minister polling with invalid polls and then seeming to proceed as if those polls were both official and valid. That might be a problem, yes?

It could be a problem and hopefully we can fix it with the new and improved code of laws(where what to do with a great leader will be dealt with). Actually this incident helps us in that way, now we know to fix the problem. No offense was taken NYE. Aggie shakes NYE's hand and goes back to kill persians.
Aggie

[notyoueither]

Just so it is clear. I would have no problem with the GL being used now if the Pres, SMC, and CP can agree. However, in the decision on what to use him for, please do not use that second poll. It is very misleading for a number of reasons.

No offense was taken NYE. Aggie shakes NYE's hand and goes back to kill persians.
Aggie

No problem. Go get em tiger.

/me shakes hands with Aggie.

[=OttomusCeasar=]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
* UnOrthOdOx looks at his watch...

I have a few hours of authority left, I will go and make an OFFICIAL poll, then. And, I will petition MrWIA NOT to use the GL in the next five turns. The only thing that will lose us is the remote possibility of another GL.

So this means no attacking Persians, no allowing of Persians to attack us, and if necessary complete abandonment of Tyre, to avoid the possibility of a lost opportunity to generate a GL?

[Aro]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
* UnOrthOdOx looks at his watch...

I have a few hours of authority left, I will go and make an OFFICIAL poll, then. And, I will petition MrWIA NOT to use the GL in the next five turns. The only thing that will lose us is the remote possibility of another GL.

But, UnOrthOdOx, we don't know in what stage of the construction are the other civ's! We are risking to loose the Sun Tzu, and the remote possibility of another GL stills a possibility. In this case, better cancel the chat, IMHO.
In fact, I'm confused. Togas don't see anything wrong or illegal, and it's almost a consensus that we can't wait with a GL in hour hands.