$Mini-Game TRADING SESSION SEVEN (7)

[GhengisFarb™]

Turn 7 closes EXACTLY 52 hours from the post time of this message.
This is a shorter session because, I noticed that in the last two sessions most posts had been completed in the first 48 hours, and I won't be available to end the market and compute results 72 hours from now.

Use this thread for trade proposals only. So, NO DEBATES HERE (except relating to current session rules questions)

For rules, a directory of threads and debates see the thread Main thread and directory

Current Market Assessment:

Turn Number: 7
In Game year: 70 AD
"Market One": Apolyton, Termina, Tassagrad, BHQ, Port Rouge

Total population: 6+5+4+2+1=18

Labor Market
Apolyton Available Labor: 6
Termina Available Labor: 2
Tassagrad Available Labor: 5
BHQ Available Labor: 4
Port Rouge Available Labor: 1
(The Labor market is now done on a per city basis. Simply state in the following format, "Hire 1 Labor in Apolyton @ $26 (D:S 1/4 = $25)". To use Vassal labor simply state "Use 1 of my Vassals on my estate.")

Vassals for Auction:

1 French
3 Persian

TOTAL OF FOUR (4) AVAILABLE

(To bid for a vassal simply state the following proposed transaction: "I wish to bid $20 each for 2 French Vassals". Unless not enough bids are received, all vassals will be sold to the highest bidders. Transfer of ownership takes place at end of session. Newly acquired vassals have been fed for this session by the state, and may commence work during the next trading session.

Commodity Markets
Food demand: 18x2=36
Food supplied: 2+2+2+2+2= 10
D:S = 36/10 = $360

Shield Demand: 9+6+5+3+2=25
Shield Supply: 9+6+6+3+3=27
D:S = 25/27 = $93

NOTE BASE RATE FOR COMMERCE IS $50
So multiply D:S by 50% for current market price.
Commerce Demand: 18x4=72
Commerce Supplied: 3+2+1+1+1=8
D:S = 72/8 x.50= $450

subDemands
Alcohol (Mead, Beer, and Wine) {Can be sold on the commerce or food market}
50% bonus if less than 8 alcohol products sold
100% bonus if less than 6 alcohol products sold
150% bonus if less than 4 alcohol products sold
200% bonus if less than 2 alcohol products sold


Use the format provided in the rules to post your proposals.

Check the LATEST trade post for the most current default price (D:S). If you are suspicious of an error, check the previous post and make sure they added properly.


THIS SESSION USES THE FOLLOWING RULES:
Each noble has 1 base Labor representing common vassals. Vassals consume 1 food for every 2 vassals. Odd numbered vassals do not consume any extra food as the vassals simply have to make do with less food. (Examples: 1 vassal consumes no food, 2 vassals consume 1 food, 3 vassals consume 1 food, etc.)


The following Buildings are available for construction:

STOREHOUSE {city or estate} (Costs 2 shields/labor) stores up to 20 commodities (including food). NOTE: you may store up to 10 nonfood items(shields/commerce) in addition to/instead of this 20 storage.


TAVERN {city only} (Costs 3 shields/labor) allows you to sell food at a 50% bonus. The number of food you may sell at that bonus is equal to the the city Pop of the city the workshop is located in. (Example: the building is located in Apolyton whose Pop is 4. The bonus applies to 4 units of the product.)


INN {city only} (Costs 5 shields/labor)
Requires Tavern
Increases Tavern bonus on food per city pop to 100%.


SHOPPE {city only} (Costs 3 shields/labor) allows you to sell commerce at a 50% bonus. The number of commerce you may sell at that bonus is equal to the the city Pop of the city the workshop is located in. (Example: the building is located in Apolyton whose Pop is 4. The bonus applies to 4 units of the product.)

Any Shoppe in a city with a Marketplace receives an additional 25% bonus, or 75% total bonus.


WORKSHOP {city only} (Costs 4 shields/labor) allows you to sell shields at a 50% bonus. The number of shields you may sell at that bonus is equal to the the city Pop of the city the workshop is located in. (Example: the building is located in Apolyton whose Pop is 4. The bonus applies to 4 units of the product.)


BREWERY {city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor)
Allows up to 4 labor to convert to 2 food into 2 Mead(alcohol) per labor (1 to 1 conversion).
Allows up to 4 labor to convert up 2 Grain(only source is Wheat) into 2 Beer (1 to 1 conversion). Beer sells at 30% bonus.

Source for labor on estates can be vassals or city labor from any city with the brewery in its radius. For breweries in cities the labor must come from the city labor pool and/or vassals of landowners who own land within the city's radius.

All alcohol can be sold on either the food OR commerce markets, and is calculated with the alcohol subDemand bonus.

Note that the only forseeable sources of wheat are American territory to the north and Uber Isle to the south.

WIND MILL {city or estate} ( Costs 5 shields/labor)
Allows up to 4 labor to convert 2 food into 2 flour per labor. Flour sells on the food market at a 50% bonus.


LUMBER MILL {city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor)
Requires tile to have river access.

Allows up to 4 labor to convert 1 shield into 2 half-shields per labor. Half-shields function exactly like shields but sell at half the price, representing crafted construction supplies. (Your turning logs (used to build log cabins) into lumber (thinner strips of wood))


RACE TRACK {city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor)
Requires 1 labor to operate per every 4 horses and must run at least 2 horses.
Generates 1 commerce per pop of cities with the racetrack in their radius for each labor required and that commerce is considered sold at D:S. The commerce IS considered part of the supply in the D:S calculation (it was from the Pop's disposable income).

(Example if you are running 4 horses, 1 labor, 1 commerce for each pop. Running 5 horses, requires 2 labor, generates 2 commerce for each pop.)

Each horse must come from a different player, no player can enter more than one horse per racetrack. Its up to the racetrack owner on how they want to compensate or hire players to enter horses or amount of purse if offered.

Race results will be determined by a Commisioner who CANNOT enter any horses.

Horses (commerce generated from tiles with the Horse resource) sell on the commerce market with a 30% bonus to final sale price.
Note that currently the only source of horses is notyoueither.
Horses can be kept on any tile that produces a food and as long as only one horse is kept on each tile it has no effect on the tiles food production. For each pair of horses on the same tile, 1 food is consumed.


To build a building in a city you must hire at least one labor from that city. Additional labor may be brought in from any noble's estate, but the first labor must be from the city or local authorities will not allow any construction on your building to take place.

The only building that will be "useable" the turn its built is Storehouse. All others technically use the turn to alter/sell products and should be in existence at the beginning of the turn to generate benefits.



ADDITIONAL RULES
Trade proposals
Solution 1:
The solution is generalized and is:

The nobles specify the amount of the commodity they want to sell/buy and their minimum/maximum price. The price they receive will be equal to the calculated D:S unless D:S is lower/higher than the minimum price in which case the commodity is not sold/bought.

example:
Market Assesment 4:4=$100
OneGuy offers one commerce and sets a minimum price of $70
SecondGuy offers two commerce and sets a minimum price of $0
ThirdGuy offers one commerce and sets a minimum price of $40

The turn is closed. Final D:S=4:8=$50

Advantages:
1. Solves the problem of unacceptable price influencing as described by Epistax
2. Nobles only need to specify their deals once
3. System is fair to people that do not have the time to visit the forum at the end of the turn
4. D:S has to be calculated at the end of the turn only
6. Turn may close before the pre-specified time (as soon as all nobles have posted).

[GhengisFarb™]

CONSTRUCTION STATUS

Franses has built 4 of ? on a building in a city/estate.
Kloreep has built 1 of 2 on Storehouse on his Estate


COMMERCIAL HOLDINGS (Active during this session)
APOLYTON
GhengisFarb owns a Tavern in Apolyton
notyoueither owns a Tavern in Apolyton
Kloreep owns a Tavern in Apolyton

GhengisFarb owns a Shoppe in Apolyton
notyoueither owns a Shoppe in Apolyton


BHQ
GhengisFarb owns a Tavern in BHQ

GhengisFarb owns a Shoppe in BHQ


TASSAGRAD
GhengisFarb owns a Tavern in Tassagrad

GhengisFarb owns a Shoppe in Tassagrad


TERMINA
Epistax owns a Tavern? in Termina


RURAL HOLDINGS
GhengisFarb owns a Storehouse on tile 026 BHQ N (mountain)

[GhengisFarb™]

I need 7 food to sell through my Taverns and will pay final D:S plus $10 for the first 7 food offered to me.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Ghengis: What exactly are my assets?

Is it:

5 labor, 1 commerce $405 cash, and 225 debt?

[UnOrthOdOx]

I am so confused. Why have the prices for food and Commerce gone up so incredibly high, but not shields? I want to get back into this, but am totally lost, and apparantly have lost out in this game due to my purchase of labor at a time when I understood ALL buildings would require labor, and food was dirt cheap anyway, so I could have made out even by selling labor. Why did we change the $ so drastically? It was SUPPOSED to take 10 turns to pay this debt off, at $200 for commerce, and no market for labor (as the last turn was) it is getting rediculously easy to make cash, and too cheap to buy buildings.

[Nimitz]

I'll sell my two food to you GhengisFarb.

[Nimitz]

Banana Pastures , Turn 7.  Admin: Nimitiz
Holdings: 
     Tile 031, NW Banana HQ, 2/1/2
Buildings:
     None
Stockpile: 0+0 food    0+0 shields    0+0 commerce
Production:  2 food      1 shields      2 commerce
Cash Change: $0
     0    Selling
     0    Buying
Current Cash: $1148     Debt: -$1500 (Interest @ turn 18)
Selling:
     2 Food  @ D/S + $10 each
     2 Comm  @ min $40 each
     1 shield @ min $40 each
Buying:
     Nothing

I have a question my land produces 1 shield right, but it has never been counted why is this?

[=OttomusCeasar=]

The Jungle Lands
Turn #: 007
Holdings: 022 Tassagrad NW (jungle), BHQ SW10 (jungle river), BHQ NW Lower (jungle),


Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
Cash: $551 ($661-$110 for illegal food sale from last turn.)
Debt: -$1000(10% interest, 14 turns remaining on grace period)
Buildings: None

Administered by: =OttomusCeasar=, Lord of the Jungle

Production this turn: 3 food, 0 shield, 1 commerce
---
Proposed Deals:

Sell 4 of 4 food to GenghisFarb @ D/S + $10
Sell 1 of 1 commerce @ $1 minimum

Use vassal to build Storehouse on 022 Tassagrad NW (jungle),
Buy 2 shields @ $150 max

*Use any vassal/labor hired from auction or cities to work on Storehouse

Bid $25 each for 2 vassals, any nationality


********************************************

Question: How do you do that "code" thing?

for Unorthodox:

This is from that last turn

Originally posted by GhengisFarb

Vassals:
GhengisFarb Estate: 3 (1 local, 2 French)
adaMada Estate:..... 1 (local)
civman2000 Estate:.1 (local)
rendelnep Estate:.....1 (local)
UnOrthOdOX Estate...3 (1 local, 4 Persian)
TOTAL VASSALS: 11 (5 local, 2 French, 4 Persian)


Offer 5 vassals of UnOrthOdOx for hire at $10 each



UnOrthOdOx received $100 rent from GhengisFarb
..........Total Income for Turn =$100 (Cash $405, Debt $225)

From what I can tell you have so many vassals that they eat all of your food leaving you nothing left to sell but labor, which would probably be great if you could get the jungle cleared and roaded.

Wait a second, do I have a vassal?

Who do we talk to about that?

The new buildings they started using this turn use labor to do stuff.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Well, when I bought the labor, food was only selling for $40, so 4 labor could sell for the same or more than my 2 food. I don't understand how the market changed SOO much.

[=OttomusCeasar=]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Well, when I bought the labor, food was only selling for $40, so 4 labor could sell for the same or more than my 2 food. I don't understand how the market changed SOO much.

$40 I'm glad I joined when I did, actually I've been lurking around for several weeks, but this Civ3 Democracy game seems to be by far those most intricate and versitile of them all. You can actually be very involved and not even know what Civ is.

Oh another note, I'd be willing to take two of those Persians off your hands if the price was right.

And what is the Horse Whisperer selling his horses for?

[notyoueither]

Unortho. We have been tinkering. GF loves to do that.

The products of our own lands are no longer included in the base supply number. That means that they are not counted twice. I agree that prices shot up last turn.

What I think we neglected to do was to include the products of some of the abandoned lands. We should have and we most likely will.

[Jonny]

Estate Jonny, Turn 7
Holdings: 003a, Apolyton SW (forest,road)
Administered By: Jonny
Buildings: None
Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
Production This Turn: 1 food, 2 shields, 1 commerce
Current Cash: $1051
Debt: -$780 (interest @ turn 18)

Transactions this Turn:

Sell 1 food to GenghisFarb at closing D/S + $10
Sell 2 shields on the open market @ $25 minimum
Sell 1 commerce on the open market @ $25 minimum
Pay off all my debt

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Nimitz
I'll sell my two food to you GhengisFarb.

Originally posted by =OttomusCeasar=
Sell 4 of 4 food to GenghisFarb @ D/S + $10

Originally posted by Jonny
Sell 1 food to GenghisFarb at closing D/S + $10

That's seven food, thanks.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Well, when I bought the labor, food was only selling for $40, so 4 labor could sell for the same or more than my 2 food. I don't understand how the market changed SOO much.

We were originally double counting our product and took the double counting out which raised prices. Then the pop of the region shot way up and we switched to Monarchy which shot the per capita income up. So we basically had a bunch of factors change at once, but prices should go down this turn. Less the a third of the commerce was sold last turn which caused prices to be high.

Kman, shiek, Frances, and skywalker all quit so there isn't as much product competing to drive down prices now.

[notyoueither]

Should we add the production of those fallow lands to the base supply for future turns GF?

[notyoueither]

I can take 4 food. Same deal as GF, DS + $10.

[jdd2007]

The Jungle Farm[insert trademark sign]
Turn #: 007
Administered by: jdd2007

Holdings: 3 Jungle Tiles near Tassagrad
Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
Cash: $1000+
Debt: $0
Buildings: None

Production this turn: 4 food, 0 shield, 1 commerce
---
Proposed Deals:

Sell 2 of 3 food to NYE D/S + 10
Sell 3 of 3 commerce @ $1 minimum
Bid $5 each on 1 Persian and 1 French vassal

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Should we add the production of those fallow lands to the base supply for future turns GF?

I'll leave it to a vote of the players, I'm not sure how this will turn out (prices may fluctuate once more players and lands are being used)

[UnOrthOdOx]

OK, I am out of it on the format.

Ghengis: I am resuming control of my estates after this turn, so I can learn the format.

[GhengisFarb™]

Questions to the players (I'm posting it here as only two people appear to read the discussion threads )

1)Should we reduce the Grace Period back to 10 turns, as that is when we open the Market to non-Beta players and a larger area of land to bid on?

2)Should we be allowed to purchase unsold tiles in Market Area now if we've paid off our debt and have the extra cash, or should they be left open for new players?

3)Should the Base Rate for Food and Commerce be reduced to lower the prices and/or should land prices be raised to compensate OR ahould we leave it alone?

4)Should buidings be more expensive?

[GhengisFarb™]

My comments:
1) I think the Grace Period should be returned to 10 turns.

2) I think we should open unsold land for auction after the close of this turn (tomorrow) especially if the GP is reduced to 10 turns, as we would only have 3 turns left before we open up to a bigger market.

3) Not sure yet, there were a lot of factors that caused the prices to skyrocket.

4) Think buildings should be more expensive, thought that from the beginning with the intro of vassals, put there haven't been as many vassals coming in as I had hoped for.

Maybe increase 3 shield buildings to 5 and 5 shield buildings to 8. But not until next turn at the earliest, maybe make it triggered on the completion of the first Lumber Mill.

[=OttomusCeasar=]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
1)Should we reduce the Grace Period back to 10 turns, as that is when we open the Market to non-Beta players and a larger area of land to bid on?

OK by me.

2)Should we be allowed to purchase unsold tiles in Market Area now if we've paid off our debt and have the extra cash, or should they be left open for new players?

Sure.

3)Should the Base Rate for Food and Commerce be reduced to lower the prices and/or should land prices be raised to compensate OR ahould we leave it alone?

Well, I like making money but I'll go with the other players as I'm new.

4)Should buidings be more expensive?

Don't know, It seems like you can currently build more than one a turn. (GF and NYE - you know those look like ticker symbols on NY Stock Exchange!)

[UnOrthOdOx]

1. Definately. With this inflated market...

2. I thought that once someone paid off their debt they could buy more land. I thought that was Captains original rules, anyway.

3. I have no idea what the base rate is doing. It is WAY overpriced, however. Perhaps putting some kind of max on the $ would be in order?

4. Free labor is what killed the buildings. Should either make them more expensive, or remove the free vassal, and make the first one bought eat food...continuing with the 2/food...

[=OttomusCeasar=]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
3. I have no idea what the base rate is doing. It is WAY overpriced, however. Perhaps putting some kind of max on the $ would be in order?

What does the "base rate" do? I don't like the idea of having a specific $ max or min. I think the price should be the result of somehting. Can you tell I'm a Finance Major?

4. Free labor is what killed the buildings. Should either make them more expensive, or remove the free vassal, and make the first one bought eat food...continuing with the 2/food...

Well, if we're supposed to be nobles I think it makes sense for everyone to have default vassals, perhaps you could make the buildings take 2 labor for each shield. Shields seem to be kind of scarce, while the labor seems to be the cheap thing.

Another idea on vassals, why don't we have every 3 vassals eat a food?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by =OttomusCeasar=

What does the "base rate" do? I don't like the idea of having a specific $ max or min. I think the price should be the result of somehting. Can you tell I'm a Finance Major?

It determines the starting price of the items before a turn. It is way overpriced now, IMO.

Well, if we're supposed to be nobles I think it makes sense for everyone to have default vassals, perhaps you could make the buildings take 2 labor for each shield. Shields seem to be kind of scarce, while the labor seems to be the cheap thing.

Default vassals only eliminate all responsibility for them. They still eat, and get SOMETHING for working under you, or they would either rebel, be killed, or leave you for someone else.

[=OttomusCeasar=]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Default vassals only eliminate all responsibility for them. They still eat, and get SOMETHING for working under you, or they would either rebel, be killed, or leave you for someone else.

So what your suggesting is that no one has default vassals, they all have to be bought?


Adding the following to my transactions:

Use vassal to build Lumber Mill on BHQ SW10 (jungle river)
Buy 5 shields @ $100 max
Bid $10 each for 2 vassals, any nationality

[UnOrthOdOx]

Yes. All must be bought. Buying them uses food. Therefore, you must decide to use hired labor, like the good old days, or to sacrifice your food to have labor sitting around. Either way, it increases the $ of the building according to the increased price of labor, or the sacrifice of food.

[GhengisFarb™]

So let's say next session:

Buildings and descriptions stay the same.

There are no free vassals for Players, you only have those vassals that you have bought.

New Base Rates: Food=$50, Commerce=$25, Shields stay the same

You can bid on unowned tiles during the session, at the end of the session the highest bidder
 wins.  Bidders must have NO debt to the government and be paying in cash.

This way we can try those changes and see how they work before doing a complete
overhaul.

What are everyone's opinions on this proposal?

[UnOrthOdOx]

I agree.

Oh, and since you are still in charge of it this term, pay off my debt, if at all possible, after the other business is done.

Tiles should still have a minimum value, though.

[Nimitz]

Put all my money that I have or make this turn to my debt please.