War Academy: Pounding Persia to Pieces

[Robber Baron]

This thread opens discussion on how to tackle the next stage (circa 260 a.d.) of the Persia campaign.

1) If we want to move on Pasargadae next, we could move a mixed stack of units (pike for protection, our elite swordsmen, some mounted units) north of Willsbury, then into Persian territory via the pair of hills west and nw of Pasargadae. This presents a well protected approach, on hills, and gets our striking force to Pasag. with a minimum number of turns (2) in foreign territory. The way is not roaded, however, meaning we would not be able to wheel any catapults to the seige.

2) alternatively, we could move by road, east of Willsbury, onto Persepolis. This would add a bombardment capability to our attack. It also would expose our strike force for 3 turns. But it would get the main prize (capital, and Pyramids) first.

3) It will be hard to hold Persepolis against flipping, until we've basically decimated the civ. If we decide to move on the capital first, we should probably be prepared to wage total war in order to keep it.

Intermediate steps:
A) I suggest we switch production in Willsbury from spear to temple, to build up culture. Defensive units can be imported from elsewhere.

B) roading the jungle tile due n. of Willsbury should be a priority. It would hook Willsbury into our road grid (as soon as we patch up that broken link three tiles east of Tyre), make our defenses more adaptable, and enable us to deploy catapults north much more efficiently.

Other thoughts, schemes ... ?
Which cities should we target, in what order? Should we build up a battery of catapults (a long process -- and we are not yet a particularly productive civ)?

[edited: got the date wrong. Sheesh!]

[BigFurryMonster]

Try to get some catapults in for the heavily defended cities.

[XOR]

[color=red=]TOTAL WAR!![/color]
Lets terminate the persians completely at once and for all.

This is what I would do:

March toward Pasagradae trough the jungle and up into the hill. From there invade. This isnt the most productive move but if we take Pasagradae:

1- We isolate Arbela and Antioch, cutting their suply of spices (which we should secure for ourselves later on, patience).

2- We cut their every possibility to make a trade route with another Civ.

3- We split their empire into 3 parts: Arbela, Antioch and the Capital's cluster. Severely hindering their possibility to pack enough force from Arbela or Antioch to take offensive or make an assault to recover a city.

4- Road connection to both empires.

After that, the troops from and Antioch and Arbela should be a minor threat and we should march on Persepolis, mainly because it has THE PYRAMIDS! and because it would cause a greater splitting of their force, not just we should consider total war, we will be in position to wage total war and terminate this persian nuisance. The Pyramids would help a lot with our underpopulation problem, which is a problem, which they would solve.

After Persepolis the next target would have to be Tarsus because it would be closer to our troops and because it will be the main productive center of the Capital Cluster.

Then we would have many choices depending on how much force we have at that moment. I'd take towards arbela while waiting for more catapults to be built and more troops and reinforcements to concentrate in Pasagradae (which, would have another name by then) to get the final part of the assault done.

Bactra and Susa are built on hills so they should be left for last. And Antioch is surrounded by river, so it's going to be a bit difficult. We will need some catapults (8 should do) to lay some severe siege on these cities.

The production on Willsbury should stay as it is, the spearman will be just 10 turns or less after the resistance is over, and if we can bring units from other fronts we should do so, but let's bring offensive units and not waste any more strenght on defending Willsbury. But it should be road connected ASAP by roading that single jungle that would connect it.

[Harovan]

Very good thread, five stars from me.

Without having the map or the game available right now, I'd like to point out, that we should consider the following facts in our war plans:

• We are a Monarchy and warfare is still cheap for us. No war weariness and martial law helps a lot.
• We practically have only Grassland (except some single tiles of another type), some of it still under forest or jungle, and only a small hope for saltpeter and oil in the future. Let's secure some desert and hills.
• We need as much different luxuries as we can. This will greatly help our economy later. Those who scream for peace now will thank us in the future. So the Persian spices will be more than welcome in the future, as well as the American incense and the Greek ivory.
• We have a bunch of elite swords, that are not upgradable and will be obsolete soon. Let's fight with them to increase the chance for another Great Leader. That could get us the Sistine chapel, an incredibly powerful wonder especially for religious civs like us.

Keep on this interesting discussion. I already added it to our thread library.

[GhengisFarb™]

I agree with Sir Ralph (all those peace lovers who claim we've made the game unwinable by building Sun Tzu and NOT stashing the leader for 20 turns, course if we'd followed their suggestions and not attacked Persia we wouldn't have had a GL) although he mentions American incense an doesn't mention Persian incense.

IMO we need to build a temple in Gordium immediately and build New Sidon and the southern road. I also strongly urge moving Tyre now. They are behind the front lines and are at very little risk from the Persians but will provide valuable barracks locations for troops to return to and move back to the front quickly. Old Tyre might culture flip but the new cities won't.

[Harovan]

As I said, I haven't access to the map now. So Persia has incense too? Excellent. The more, the better. What we can't use ourselves, we can trade away to increase our reputation, and to make other civs depend from our mercy.

[vulture]

Originally posted by XOR
[color=red=]TOTAL WAR!![/color]
Lets terminate the persians completely at once and for all.

Completely eliminating the Persians in one go does have a slight disadvantage in that you can extort techs out of them for peace then. Better to cripple them (getting the Pyramids, luxuries and good terrain of course), leaving them one or two useless cities, in order to get any techs they have that we don't, and then finish them off after a 20 turn break (where we possibly investigate the joys of ransacking American cities).

[Robber Baron]

Originally posted by vulture

Completely eliminating the Persians in one go does have a slight disadvantage in that you can extort techs out of them for peace then. Better to cripple them...

Good point. I should clarify. We should smash up and/or capture all of Persia's large cities surrounding Persepolis, devastating its culture base and driving its capital from the region. But let it live, gasping. Extort techs.
So the war cry is, "Almost-Total Wa!" (hmm. Doesn't have the same ring to it...)

[DeathByTheSword]

attack and capture atleast until the capital then go for peace this will give us alot of green pastures where our mighty warhorses can eat there bananas imported from the homeland

[Aggie]

Well vulture when we stay exterminate the Persians we mean there homeland cities, the city way,way,way north will be kept i suspect unless we make alliance with say the aztects to eliminate those. But when every "real city" is taken then we can extort their techs and think about other treacherous neighbors(hint hint germany and america). Also in our plans include(if we get approval to upgrade) 4 more knights for a total of five. Thank you Robber Baron for starting this thread, it will be very useful, because up until now I've really been unable to figure out the final plan due to not know how many troops we would have at this stage. Now the plan can be made. Also a thank you goes to WhiteBandit because he has generously allowed me to use, 5 of his workers to road for the army, thus for the record Gordium will be connected to our netwrok in 2 turns.
Aggie

[ThePlagueRat]

Hi, you know what? The Grandmaster of all war academies visited me in below the guild hall, an he just told me...

"There are five kinds of spy: the local spy, the inside spy, the reverse spy, the dead spy and the living spy. Local spies are hired from among the inhabitants of a place. Inside spies are hired from among enemy officers. Reverse spies are hired from enemy spies. Dead spies give false information to the enemy. Living spies come back to make their reports.

"Therefore, no one in the army is treated as well as spies, no one is given rewards as rich as those given to spies, and no matter is more secret than the work of spies."

— Sun Tzu, The Art of War

I think we shall listen to him! ;-)

[ThePlagueRat]

Wait! My friend here also mentioned one thing when he visited the headmaster of our war academy during supper yesterday.
I overheard this when I was in the saloon with the headmasters daughter...

"The consummation of forming an army is to arrive at formlessness.
When you have no form, spies cannot find anything out and the
enemy cannot produce a strategy."

— Sun Tzu, The Art of War

I think we shall give him a special place in our academy!

[Aggie]

Yes plaguerat he will have a spot of honor. The good thing is that our army is so formless we even don't know where it is, but the following is my best estimate of future movement for next 5 turns.
I will post more specific orders in the orders thread this is just to get a feel of how this strategy looks.

War orders 260 onward
Available forces on Persian Front
11 Swords (3elite,5vet,3reg)
3 Horsemen (1elite,1vet,1reg)
1 Knight (Vet)
3 Pikemen (1elite,2vet)
1Catapult
5 Workers (4 foreign,1 Apolyton)

Of the above there are 2 injured sword, one ¾ in Tyre will be ready next move, one 2/4 se of Napolitan needs to go to tyre to recover. There is also a 1/5 horse recovering in tyre.

Now here’s the general plan for the next 5 turns. Please give feedback so I can fine tune. Also I know there will be resistance by enemy units outside cities but like last turn I am sure we can brush them off with our force and still have plenty to attack with.

270
Gather forces 2n,e of gordium, I estimate this force(that will also be at 2n of gordium) will consist of the following
1 Knight
7 sword(2 elite,2Vet,3reg)
2 Pike(though 1 might not go on offense, he might defend road)

280 Army (now from now on as Persian Punishment Force(PPF))
will move to jungle 2w of Pasargadae

290 Now we have a decison to make and I will give both options
Option I (attack Pasargade)
We move PPF e onto hill w of Pasargadae
Option II (attack Antioch)
PDF moves n

300
Option I
PPF attacks Pasargade
Option II
PPF Move n onto hill se of Antioch

310
Option I
PPF forify’s and defends Pasargadae
Option II
PPF atatcks Antioch
Notes: You might ask why no horse and the answer is this "for the next 5 truns we will make about 40 a turn, in 5 turns this will allow us to upgrade 2 horse to knight, those forces will move to gordium to prepare for the possible southern push or perhaps they will go to Pasargadae, if we take that.

Ok there is the plan(please don't tell the perisan spies). I am debating which city to attack right now. Antioch could be good because I doubt it is as heavily defended as Pasargadae, however Pasargarde is more important, though antioch would insure no internal iron for persia if we encounter unexpected defeat. Antioch is also less liklely to culture flip and that is good, that actually is my biggest worry with Pasargadae. Pasargadae is closer and we could consolidate forces easier and they lose much cultural borders so armies(ours) can move at will(at least northward). I am sure there are more pro's and cons but I could go on much longer and I think we all get the idea.
Aggie

[ThePlagueRat]

Interresting Aggie... You might be foreseeing something here.

Our new teacher and my Grandmaster stated once:
"Seeing through the unforeseen is the seeing the victory. The successful general specifies in the unortodox."

Well, what can he have meant?

[BigFurryMonster]

Two observations:

1) We can attack Antioch from the SE without having to cross a River;

2) In the City Top-5, the population number of Persepolis is red. This means that there is not enough food for the population. Why? Simply because they are in a Republic and are sick and tired of the war with us, causing them to abondon their farms (don't ask me why - they're Persians after all).
==> War Weariness is a huge problem for them, especially since they are the agressor. So Time is in our favor: prolonging the war only increases this effect.

3) They do not have horses.



- That's =three= observations! Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[=OttomusCeasar=]

Originally posted by BigFurryMonster
2) In the City Top-5, the population number of Persepolis is red. This means that there is not enough food for the population. Why? Simply because they are in a Republic and are sick and tired of the war with us, causing them to abondon their farms (don't ask me why - they're Persians after all).
==> War Weariness is a huge problem for them, especially since they are the agressor. So Time is in our favor: prolonging the war only increases this effect.

That's a good point, I'm all for taking their whole homeland.

[Donegeal]

Excellent observation on the war weariness front BFM!

With the Persians in an internal struggle with the length of this battle, they loose their production as most of there cities will be in disorder!

NO PEACE!

Total conquest of the homeland is in our grasp!

As for the next city to take, I say Antioch as it will completely romove the threat of Iron (removing Immortals, Pikemen and Knights).

We Cannot Be Stopped!

KILL!!

[BigFurryMonster]

Originally posted by donegeal
With the Persians in an internal struggle with the length of this battle, they loose their production as most of there cities will be in disorder!

Well, until they switch back to Monarchy or Despotism...

[=OttomusCeasar=]

I wonder if the AI takes into account the repecussions and vengence exacted by the human player on those who break ROP agreements?

This may cause them to stick to their treaties no matter what from now on.

[GePap]

As was stated, we can't wipe out the Persians, unless we decide to carry out some pointless marches through other civ's soils to reach those wonderful and isolated outposts the AI so loves to make.

Also, how quickly upon our victory over Persia will we finally take America over, and start to build up the empire?

[XOR]

Hmmm... my plan is even better than I tought, I missed the 2 cities way up north...

We can take the totallity of their main homeland, including 2 luxury clusters and a wonder AND THEN still ask them for every tech they have, maybe even 1gpt to ensure another war later on. IF they dont agree to our demands we can send a couple of ships along the coast to park a few troops next to their far north cities (preferably capital) and then make the demands or just wait a bit, the longer you are in war the more the AI will value "Peace" in exchange for goods. Trust me, I am a highly experimented and evil Tokugawa.

Another correction to my previous post is, we should attack Antioch from the hill, which does not require to cross the river. But we should start with Pasagradae and Persepolis to squish their posibility to generate any half-significant force.

As for time in our favor, no, time is against us, once we take the cities we have to rush the rest of the area as fast as we can to reduce chance of flipping as much as possible, specially at Persepolis, which might flip in less than 16 turns because it shares 2 tiles of the city radius with Bactra and has a wonder.

Catapults are now only needed to get the 2 cities in the hills, about 8 should do, we can lay siege for several turns if we have to.

However, my recomendation would be Pasagradae -> Persepolis (ignoring Antioch, this will break their force in 3 parts as stated in my previous post) -> Tarsus -> send newly recruited forces and siege weapons to concentrate in Pasagradae while going for Arbela -> Regrouping in Pasagradae. Then depending on the amount of force and siege weapons in Pasagradae we could go to Bactra and Susa (if force is high) or go to Antioch while waiting for more forces.

Any excess forces from this glorious conquest should then be redeployed and employed on capturing Abe. After Abe has been captured and his people are under our rule, we should switch the production of each and every of our cities to worker, until we have enough workers (2 for every 5 cities) and then we queue all cities to build whateve city planners chose, consider it as an emergency action to respond to an underdevelopment crisis. Said queues must be short enough to allow production of military hardware soon enough for a larger scale war, the imperial war planners are treatening to organize a revolt if production of military hardware isnt resumed asap.

Persians are Sci+Ind, if they choose to change govt they will have to ge trough 5 turns of zero production and zero income.