First Impressions....

Velociryx · September 23, 2002, 11:16

I put it off as long as I could stand, but in the end, curiosity got the better of me, and I found myself cracking open the box and loading the game.

Ohhhh man! I cannot believe I have been missing out on this GEM of a game for so long!

Even in its unmodded form, I discovered a game with a beautiful, intuitive interface (a good thing, since my copy did not come with a bound manual....some digging revealed a wordpad manual in a sub-folder tho, which was invaluable).

The first thing I was struck by was how much sense Public Works made....I really like that system.

Second was the STAGGERING array of stats at your fingertips. Admittedly, this was, at first glance, an overwhelming amount of information, but I think it primarily felt that way because other games in this same genre (Civ3), don't even come CLOSE to providing that level of information! Having all that available really made me feel as though I was managing an EMPIRE, and not a collection of city states. Very good stuff.

The game also had an inescapable epic look and feel to it, right from the first turn. There was a genuine sense of discovery from the get-go, and (granted, I'm still in the BC era....1300something), I don't see any signs of letup.

Diplomatic options were more robust...another plus, and I like the army system, tho at first glance, my sense is that it makes ranged attack units too powerful (I chose the Scots for my first game, wound up on the same continent as the Zulu, who attacked me unprovoked, taking the city of Stirling--which I got free, btw, thanks to a "goody thingy"--....I responded with two "armies" consisting of two Hoplites and two Archers (also free from goody hut thingys), and dismantled their empire without losing a soul.

I LOVE the...groping for the correct term....the historical events that provide wonder-like effects. It made the recapture of Stirling truly FEEL like a proud moment in the history of our empire (and likewise when we circimnavigated the globe...the only two I have recieved thus far).

Seems like around every corner, and inside every nook and cranny of the game, there's some new, wonderful secret to discover. I can honestly say that Civ3 NEVER gave me that feeling. Very definitely, there's a sense of excitement in the early game of Civ3, but that's not what I'm talking about.

This game is *wonderful!*

-=Vel=-

centrifuge · September 23, 2002, 11:21

Great to hear that you are enjoying it

Locutus · September 23, 2002, 11:34

Another one bites the dust...

(credits of the pic unsurprisingly go to hex

)

Velociryx · September 23, 2002, 11:41

Oh....I can clearly see why the game was modded, but the thing is....even UN-Modded, it's so much more intricate, and epic than other games in the genre....it's, IMO, a better blending of concepts than EU (which can be draggy...don't get me wrong, I LOVE EU, but the pacing in this game is PERFECT!).

More governments, more options, a real sense of empire, an army system, statistics galore, EXTREME moddability....::shakes head:: I can't for the life of me explain my hesitancy where this game is concerned, but I know I'll be making up for some serious lost time now that I have it!

-=Vel=-

Hermann the Lombard · September 23, 2002, 12:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
I can't for the life of me explain my hesitancy where this game is concerned, but I know I'll be making up for some serious lost time now that I have it!

Correction: you'll be losing some serious time now that you have it! Welcome aboard!

Velociryx · September 23, 2002, 12:42

Thanks guys!

The only negative comment I have so far is....what's up with the undead-looking elephant? LOL

But...one thing I noticed was that the strategy section was a little slim....if nobody would be offended, I think after a few games and a bit of immersion, I'll start one up and make a few notes? Prolly nothing that you guys haven't discovered long ago, but still....there might be some holdouts like me who wander to the party late or something....

-=Vel=-

hexagonian · September 23, 2002, 12:44

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wait until you get into the Mods, and then get into modding it yourself... You have only scratched the surface.

(Glad you like the poster Locutus)

FrustratedPoet · September 23, 2002, 13:19

aahh ... we've lost him to the dark side.

Martin Gühmann · September 23, 2002, 13:38

Yeah Loctutus, this poster belongs into the directory, what about putting it under screenshots > CTP2 > Art

-Martin

Locutus · September 23, 2002, 13:56

Some more elaborate comments:

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Ohhhh man! I cannot believe I have been missing out on this GEM of a game for so long!

We hate to say 'we told you so' but uhm... we told you so!

Quote:

Even in its unmodded form, I discovered a game with a beautiful, intuitive interface

Hmm, I'm not a big fan of the interface myself (the messagetab is really annoying - CtP1's system was so much better - and there are generally too many tabs), but glad to see someone likes it...

Quote:

(a good thing, since my copy did not come with a bound manual....some digging revealed a wordpad manual in a sub-folder tho, which was invaluable).

That *is* the manual. The only difference with the paper version is that the paper version has some (black&white) pictures included to make it look thicker. It's useful for learning how to move units around and how to set a trade route, but other than that it's completely useless

Quote:

The first thing I was struck by was how much sense Public Works made....I really like that system.

Right on!

Quote:

Second was the STAGGERING array of stats at your fingertips. Admittedly, this was, at first glance, an overwhelming amount of information, but I think it primarily felt that way because other games in this same genre (Civ3), don't even come CLOSE to providing that level of information! Having all that available really made me feel as though I was managing an EMPIRE, and not a collection of city states. Very good stuff.

Yes, although unfortunately there are no stats a la Civ1/2/3's demographics, CtP2 is a much deeper game than the vanilla series, with much more variables to take into consideration

Quote:

The game also had an inescapable epic look and feel to it, right from the first turn. There was a genuine sense of discovery from the get-go, and (granted, I'm still in the BC era....1300something), I don't see any signs of letup.

Quote:

Diplomatic options were more robust...another plus, and I like the army system, tho at first glance, my sense is that it makes ranged attack units too powerful (I chose the Scots for my first game, wound up on the same continent as the Zulu, who attacked me unprovoked, taking the city of Stirling--which I got free, btw, thanks to a "goody thingy"--....I responded with two "armies" consisting of two Hoplites and two Archers (also free from goody hut thingys), and dismantled their empire without losing a soul.

The main reason for that is not necessarily because ranged attack is too powerful (although it *is* powerful, that's just a matter of balancing), but because the major problem of unmodded CtP2 is that the AI s*cks. All the extra units and concepts that mods like Cradle and MedMod offer are nice, but more than anything CtP2 needed better AI. That's why many people have recommended you to try the Apolyton Pack as first mod. It leaves most of the original game intact and only fixes the behaviour of the AI and diplomacy (which are two sides of the same coin, really).

Quote:

I LOVE the...groping for the correct term....the historical events that provide wonder-like effects. It made the recapture of Stirling truly FEEL like a proud moment in the history of our empire (and likewise when we circimnavigated the globe...the only two I have recieved thus far).

Yeah, those Feats of Wonders, as they are called, are fun. Although, the ones you already saw are also the most interesting ones. There's a whole bunch of Feats for building x Arenas or being the first to research Gunpowder, which are kind of nice but not as fun as recapturing a city or circumnavigating the world...

But the game is very moddable, so if you have good ideas for more of these Feats, we'd love to hear 'em...

Quote:

Seems like around every corner, and inside every nook and cranny of the game, there's some new, wonderful secret to discover. I can honestly say that Civ3 NEVER gave me that feeling. Very definitely, there's a sense of excitement in the early game of Civ3, but that's not what I'm talking about.

This game is *wonderful!*

That's great to hear

Yes, CtP2 does indeed have many interesting new features such as PW, stacked combat, pirating, slavery, unconventional warfare, feats of wonder, MAD, undersea cities, etc. This in contrast with Civ3, which is basically just Civ2 with strategic resources and culture. Of course, this thrill of discovery will eventually wear off and you will probably start disliking the inbalanced gameplay, the poor AI, etc - but this is where the mods come in

But it's good to see you're enjoying yourself so far

Quote:

The only negative comment I have so far is....what's up with the undead-looking elephant? LOL

LOL, I dunno but it's good to see you apparently already discovered the Alexander the Great scenario

A great piece of work by Harlan, by many described as a game in itself (but that's no surprise, with Harlan as author).

Quote:

But...one thing I noticed was that the strategy section was a little slim....

Talk about an understatement. We have no strategy section to speak off

Of course, there's always the offical strategy guide, but I don't advise anyone to bother with that: more than half of it is devoted to giving you fascinating insights on the historic background and cultural value of all the advances and wonders and stuff in the game. And an entire chapter is devoted to discussing the morality of using a concept like slavery in a game like CtP2. Oh yeah, here and there they devote one or two sentences to giving advice on how to play the game as well

- it's just too bad most of that advice makes no sense whatsoever

As far as Apolyton Strategy goes, most of us who would be capable of writing strategy stuff are too busy changing the strategies, by making mods

The rest is discouraged from writing down anything meaningful strategy-related by the fact that most strategies are only valid for one mods and at present there's at least half a dozen good mods/mod-combo's to consider...

Although there's an occasional thread devoted to strategy (HuangShuang's Tactics Database, that good old 'Science vs Commerce' thread that I linked to from the FAQ), there's nothing here that can be compared with the great things you did with SMAC and Civ3 (and perhaps others games as well). So any thoughts you may have on strategy are more than welcome...

Locutus · September 23, 2002, 14:01

Martin, it's not my poster

And there's many more posters like that one in the OTF - but none of them involve CtP2ers (although IIRC there may be one with Immortal Wombat...). I *have* considered asking Markos to make a seperate Directory category for all of them, but I'll first wait to see how the thread continues and discuss that with Ming...

Velociryx · September 23, 2002, 16:07

More specifics and stuff:

Haven't played the scenarios yet, but that's high on the list....the elephant I was referring to is the one representing the 'Ivory' good? I dunno....I didn't even recognize what it was at first....just looked kinna...sickly or undead? LOL

The tabs: I agree...there are a wampum lot of them, but my perspective on them comes direct from civ3...after you get a goodish number of techs under your belt and you have a ton and a half of different things you can build, you're beset by a single, almost endless list of things in civ3....with the tabs created along logical divisions (units, buildings, wonders), it keeps the lists shorter and more directed...that's good stuff!

And the more I think about it, the more I really get into the whole idea of Public Works....that's just simply a suberb MM tool, and a great way to handle terraforming and general improvements. Some good thinking there! It, along with the notions having a variety of ways of impacting empire-wide productivity (wages, rations, length of work day), REALLY lend to the feel of being at the helm of an EMPIRE. In Civ3, you find yourself controlling several city-states that really don't have anything in common, other than sharing the same "color" of their cultural border.

I like the way trade routes are used as well....tho I have not actually built one yet (first one is scheduled for completion in 5 turns, when I return home from work this evening)....still, having to do *something* for that added economic benefit is really sweet. (Now, if it's possible via modding to tie certain unit types to the presence of certain goods, we're REALLY in business, but again, I've not played enough to know that).

As to the rest....I've been makin' notes to myself as I play and learn the ropes of the CTP2 system, and as such, I think I'd be in pretty good shape to at least make a beginning re: a newbie's guide to a few things. The more advanced stuff will, of course, have to wait till I get a good many more games under my belt, but I really like what I see so far.

And did someone say they have wonder movies in this game? :: cackling gleefully if it's true! ::

-=Vel=-

Turambar · September 23, 2002, 16:19

Quote:

(Now, if it's possible via modding to tie certain unit types to the presence of certain goods, we're REALLY in business, but again, I've not played enough to know that).

It's being worked on I think along with some other Civ3 features. Someone even modded in the Civ3 (horrible) worker system to shut up people who didn't like public works

.

Velociryx · September 23, 2002, 16:25

Good news re: units tied to resources, but why would anybody WANT workers, in light of PW???

-=Vel=-

Ogie Oglethorpe · September 23, 2002, 16:29

Based upon the glowing praise looks like I'm gonna finally cash in my Amazon gift certificate for a copy of CTP2.

Vel hurry up with the newbie guide. Hopefully you'll have done all the hard work by the time I get my copy. LOL

Vel in your opinion, how does CTP2 grade (a-f) verses competitive titles (CIV3, EU, & EU2 and SMAC) of the same period?

Velociryx · September 23, 2002, 16:35

Will do, Ogie! Tho, if you're up for a challenge, I might write the "Noob Gu1d3" in 1337-5p3akz?

-=Vel=-

Ogie Oglethorpe · September 23, 2002, 16:40

OMG!!! Your brain has been infected. Please take a couple bottles of Tequila and flush all brain cells accordingly!

Pedrunn · September 23, 2002, 16:41

Quote:

(Now, if it's possible via modding to tie certain unit types to the presence of certain goods

This is really easy to do.
What is being worked mostly is the trade system and make the units/building/wonders possible to be build by the city wich receives the good via trade wich is the difficult part

I plan to continue the work on this tomorrow or today at night.

Nice to see you are enjoying this game

Locutus · September 23, 2002, 16:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Haven't played the scenarios yet, but that's high on the list....the elephant I was referring to is the one representing the 'Ivory' good? I dunno....I didn't even recognize what it was at first....just looked kinna...sickly or undead? LOL

D'oh! Forgot about that one... Yeah, I suppose that one is rather bland...

Quote:

The tabs: I agree...there are a wampum lot of them, but my perspective on them comes direct from civ3...after you get a goodish number of techs under your belt and you have a ton and a half of different things you can build, you're beset by a single, almost endless list of things in civ3....with the tabs created along logical divisions (units, buildings, wonders), it keeps the lists shorter and more directed...that's good stuff!

Ah, true, in essence tabs aren't bad (CtP1 had lots of tabs too but I loved that UI - would trade it in for CtP2's UI any day) and in the build manager they are most useful, but particularly the city manager (F3 key) is very poorly designed - all that info could easily have been fitted on one or two tabs, rather than 5.

Quote:

And the more I think about it, the more I really get into the whole idea of Public Works....that's just simply a suberb MM tool, and a great way to handle terraforming and general improvements. Some good thinking there! It, along with the notions having a variety of ways of impacting empire-wide productivity (wages, rations, length of work day), REALLY lend to the feel of being at the helm of an EMPIRE. In Civ3, you find yourself controlling several city-states that really don't have anything in common, other than sharing the same "color" of their cultural border.

Yes, I agree, the city vs empire thing is probably the most important difference between CtP and Civ. This plus all the new features it offers make that it's IMHO by far the best Civ game out there, Civ3 ain't even in the same league...

Quote:

(Now, if it's possible via modding to tie certain unit types to the presence of certain goods, we're REALLY in business, but again, I've not played enough to know that).

In essence it's really easy to make units dependent on goods but we modmakers are ambitious and want to add the diplomacy and colony part of strategic resources as Civ3 has it as well as well. That is a lot harder to do, but we're working on a bunch of different approaches in the Creation forum.

Quote:

As to the rest....I've been makin' notes to myself as I play and learn the ropes of the CTP2 system, and as such, I think I'd be in pretty good shape to at least make a beginning re: a newbie's guide to a few things. The more advanced stuff will, of course, have to wait till I get a good many more games under my belt, but I really like what I see so far.

Seeing how little stuff we currently have in this area, the newbie guide alone would already be very much appreciated - more advanced stuff would be the icing on the cake

Quote:

And did someone say they have wonder movies in this game? :: cackling gleefully if it's true! ::

Yup

They're not spectacular by any means but they're there

Locutus · September 23, 2002, 16:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Good news re: units tied to resources, but why would anybody WANT workers, in light of PW???

Beats the sh*t out of most of us, but there are actually people out there who don't like PW...

But it's good for publicity - now we can go to the Civ3 forums and tease the people there with things like: 'We can make a Civ3 mod of CtP2, can you make a CtP2 mod of Civ3?'

Pedrunn · September 23, 2002, 16:51

Locutus,
what takes to CTP2 have an extra forum? I think we should have on for the strategies and stories. And leave this one for questions, MP and tounaments. It is just uncorfortable to post strategies and stories here. where threads since the people comes here to ask things. Nobody wants to be a lonely thread that will drop soon and is in the middle of dozen of questions

Velociryx · September 23, 2002, 16:58

Yes...I can see how that would add whole new layers to the game, good luck on the continuing quest for it!

Another couple of questions from the new guy:

1) Any particular limit to the number of resources the game can support?

2) Any quick and dirty ways of telling how soon till a city grows? I know that the more spare food you have, the faster a city grows, but I have not yet stumbled across the right info (or tab) that reveals "Perth to grow in X turns" or some semblence thereof.

3) Does the 'poly mod available right here come with the activision patch, or should I dl and install it first?

-=Vel=-
(watching the clock and counting down the last hour, then it's home to continue my Scottish explorations of this fantastic game!)

Velociryx · September 23, 2002, 17:03

LOL! Massive cross-posting!

Hmmm...well, I'm coming in so late in the game, and with Candle'Bre, I doubt I could be much use to you guys where modding is concerned....besides, I'd have to learn everything you guys already know, which would take months, even if I could devote myself to it full-time, so I guess I'll just content myself with writing strat notes and enjoying the mods all of you create....

And no worries, brother Og! I was entirely kidding....

(tho the tequila sounds like a nice change of pace!)

-=Vel=-

Turambar · September 23, 2002, 17:09

Quote:

3) Does the 'poly mod available right here come with the activision patch, or should I dl and install it first?

You need to get the patch seperately and then should download modswapper.

Quote:

besides, I'd have to learn everything you guys already know, which would take months

I read a guide to SLIC and was able to start modding stuff after a couple of hours exploring all the files etc. Though I don't know anywhere near enough as everyone else at the moment.

Pedrunn · September 23, 2002, 17:15

1) So far as many as you can. We never found a limit and probably there isnt. Good mod has 55 goods oppose to 22 from the regular game. The major problem is that you can only have 4 per terrain. But again you can have as many terrain as you want. So this gives ifinite number of goods

2) The growth rate tells you how much pop is goint to be added in the next turn and you have your city population right over it.

3) Intall the patch, then modswapper and finally the mod you want. Note. You can have as many mods as you want. Files do not get overwritten and the mod is you want to play is chosen after lauching the modswapper.exe

Modding is so easy that to know all we know you just need a couple of days.

Locutus · September 23, 2002, 17:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Pedrunn
Locutus,
what takes to CTP2 have an extra forum?

A lot more traffic

We don't have enough strategy talk and certainly not enough stories (none, apart from the Succession Games) to warant a seperate forum

The only way to get more forums is if the post-rate goes up further - but MP would be a more likely candidate for a new forum than Strategy (of course, if the MP discussion goes, there will be more room for strategy threads on the first page)...

Immortal Wombat · September 23, 2002, 17:17

Vel loves CtP2!

Vel loves CtP2!

Immortal Wombat · September 23, 2002, 17:20

Quote:

although IIRC there may be one with Immortal Wombat...)

Paul Hanson made two, in fact.

Pedrunn · September 23, 2002, 17:25

Quote:

I read a guide to SLIC and was able to start modding stuff after a couple of hours exploring all the files etc. Though I don't know anywhere near enough as everyone else at the moment.

Slic language is an advanced form of modding CTP2. I only advice anyone to try to learn this first if he know any computer language.
Other than that if anyone wants to mod i advice learn the text files first wich are easier.

Velociryx , you are already talking about modding

Enjoy you good CTP2 game and mods first. Before you get adicted to modding like some of us.

Pedrunn · September 23, 2002, 17:30

You assimilation reminds me of mine
I was a Civ3 enthusiastic waiting it to be released.

This thread is when this event happened.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...&threadid=5165

sweet memories