Analysis Of The Germans

[Strakorfsky]

Good day! Glad to be back home. Well anyways, was bored so I thought I may go ahead and send my thoughts on my favorite Civ3 race, you guessed it, the Germans!

"For all benevolence and hardships, for what of those hard working peasants, which grace themselves with the name of their Fatherland." -Albert Wessienheim

Well, to begine, lets take a historical look at the Germans, no offence to any! The Germans originated in the eastern half of the European landmass. Gene pools can be traced back to various barbarian clans located in the area. One of the Many was the vandals who in conjuction with other clans formed primitive states for which rule was divided into sects. The German people themselves are natural workers, considered by many one of the most productive citizenry of the world. Germany in the modern age has been known for its ability to reconstruct quickly, and be able to regenerate itself very fast after a problem has occured. This was most prevalent after WW2, where the main German cities after being devastated by allied bombing, the people were able to clean up, and build back the factories, schools, hospitals ect... in just a few years.

Now on to the game...

So, Germany is (in my opinion) the greatest civs of the game. Afer playing and winning numerous games with them on monarch difficulty, you would too start becoming attached with them. Though, playing with Germany has a bad side in that you do not get an early UU, which most people enjoy a lot. Also, it's two traits (scientific, militaristic) can also be a real advantage. The increased time in building barracks and libraries is valuable.

One thing that I really do not enjoy is no early age advantages with the Germans. Having real early UU like the Aztecs or Irouqois can really dampen your plans. But, their scientific attribute may have the advantage of getting one free tech per age. Also, the ability of getting cheaper libraries will increase a cities science 50%. Their militaristic advantage is perhaps the best. Giving you cheaper barracks (and coastal fortresses) is great in the early ages. Also, the more a chance that you can get veterans is also a beneficiary.

All in all, Germans are best when they reach their Industrial age. Those Panzers can really do the damage. With their 16 attack and 3 movement, you can really cut deep into enemy lines. Also, the Panzers are unmatched by any other civs tank, because with that 3 movement, you can easly make it to enemy cities much faster then they can to yours. The 16 attack is enough to uproot those fortified infantry. Also, they are effective at pilliging also.

So, Germans are a very unique and useful civ. They are capable of massive destruction in the industrial age and should be considered as a civ to play. Also, when playing against an A.I. German civ, be on the wary for tank formations, they cn really dish out some pain to your civ.

On a lighter note... it will be interesting to see how people fight and defende against other human players on PTW as Germans. COnsidering that with that 3 movement, there will be no real security from them. Well anyways, can't wait till' October 29, guess I'll make sure I am in the United States that week, they won't have it avaible in any other country till about a week later I think .


Well, that is about what I think, please send any comments in, would love to hear them. Well anyways,, going to work on my WW3 map, i'll try and start making post as to how it is progressing. Bye now...

Here is something to think about...

"He who conquers, is he who endures." -Persus

[Demerzel]

Originally posted by Strakorfsky
The German people themselves are natural workers, considered by many one of the most productive citizenry of the world. Germany in the modern age has been known for its ability to reconstruct quickly, and be able to regenerate itself very fast after a problem has occured. This was most prevalent after WW2, where the main German cities after being devastated by allied bombing, the people were able to clean up, and build back the factories, schools, hospitals ect... in just a few years.

Far be it for me to nitpick, but the reason the (West) German economy and infrastructure recovered so fast was the influx of money and resources from western powers ( esp. America ) after the war in order to build up a strong central european country to face off against the Soviet threat.

Without the external support, Germany would have taken a lot longer to recover regardless of how "productive" their workers were.

[Theseus]

Strak,

Don;t knock Germany for UEW ("Ultra Early War"). As militaristic, they start with Warrior Code, allowing immediate Archers. Bad-ass Archer rushing prior to Bronze Working is basically unstoppable (if the enemy is within reach)... "I'll have a Warrior and two Workers on rye bread with mustard, please."

While I agree that Panzers are unbelievably great, I have yet to be in a situation where I couldn't achieve all of my evil heart's desires with Tank hordes.

[player1]

Archers and Spearmen from start.

That's the Germans.

War from start to the end (Panzers).

[Strakorfsky]

Theseus, I agree...

Germans can make an archers if they are in close proximity too an enemy Civ. I have did this before and at a moderate successe rate.

Ussualy, I just go for horsemen and over whelm the A.I.s weak spearman formations of two per city or even one.

Call me picky, but I hate slow moving units. Even if you add in road factors, it is like shooting blindly if you build the road off couse and then find the A.I. was else where.

Player1, I totaly agree, germans are war, war, and more war from the get go.

-Ronnie

[player1]

By the way, Chinese could be good for war combo too.

Wokers make roads quickly (industrious), Archers (Militaristic) use roads for ealy conquest.

And even better if your first neigbour is Indian.

[Gen.Dragolen]

Palyer1,

The only think missing is the German self-propelled artillery (Stug III and IV) and Panzer Grenadiers in their Hanomag's...


D.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by player1
By the way, Chinese could be good for war combo too.

They are nasty. I am finishing my first game with them. The riders three tile move lets you blitz other civs. Not blitz in the Civ III terms of multiple attacks but in being able to take more than one layer of cities in a single turn which you can't do with units that are limited to two tiles. Take a city and then move and take the city beyond. Civs fall fast when you can do that because you can hit them faster then they move defenders into position.

Its like like cavalry at the beginning of the Middle Ages instead of the end. Which also means your likely to get GLs and then you can have an army of Riders that DO blitz in Civ III turns now that Armies have blitz capacity.

Wokers make roads quickly (industrious), Archers (Militaristic) use roads for ealy conquest.

Forget about archers unless there are no horses near. Especially if you have Riders coming. The horses will upgrade to your UU and then goodby neighbors as you hit your Golden Age, The Republic and three move attackers.

[vmxa1]

I am not saying Germany is not a good civ for the game, but Panzers are so late that it does not change the outcome. IOW by the time you get them you would have had perfectly good (not as good) unit anyway.

[Kingof the Apes]

vmxa,
Unless you warmonger very hard or play with not many civs, most games last into the late industrial/Modern age (for warmongering.) By the time panzers are availiable, they make a huge difference over attacking infantry with cavalry.

Panzers are much better than tanks because you can choose where you want you battle. You should try to use that extra movement point to it's full extent, moving it out of the way when it might be attacked so that you tanks are never on the defensive.

[Theseus]

This all makes me laugh, in a good way...

My most memorable 'poly experience was slapping Vel around when he tried to get away with saying that he had cracked the code, and figured our the "one true way" to play Civ3 (understand, I hold Vel in the HIGHEST regard... I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy... but he was wrong).

How do I love thee, Germany?

Archer Rush.

Promotions.

Libraries in newly captured cities.

And yes, Panzers.

They all work... and the different pieces work for different civs too. Do I love China, with Mil/Ind, and the Rider? Oohhh yeaaah.

I laugh that almost a year into it, people who have a LOT of experience have such different styles that there is still this much dialogue.

Cool.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Kingof the Apes
vmxa,
Unless you warmonger very hard or play with not many civs, most games last into the late industrial/Modern age (for warmongering.) By the time panzers are availiable, they make a huge difference over attacking infantry with cavalry.

Panzers are much better than tanks because you can choose where you want you battle. You should try to use that extra movement point to it's full extent, moving it out of the way when it might be attacked so that you tanks are never on the defensive.

Of course they are, but so what. When I get to the modern era I get out the bad boy club and whack civs. The AI plays poorly so all I need is tanks as long as they have nothing better (read MA). I just finished my EMP game with only conquest allowed so I got to 2050 with only Greece left with one city (I did not eliminate them on purpose). When I got tanks, several civs were ahead of me including the Germans (they were 3rd and I was 4th) and they all had many more units than I. So what, they do not know what to do with them. They will send a few waves and keep 70% or more back in their cities. This allows the human to bust up what ever they send and then start to carve them up. My point was not that you could not do well with Germany or that the UU was not strong, it was who needs a great UU at that point in the game? Civs that are not adjacent to your civ and declare war are really going to sent units in for the slaughter. You see them for miles and may elect to allow another civ to pile on as suits you. I will have RR up or soon will complete my ring around the empire so I can get as many troops as needed to any city and smoke them.
I always play with what ever the max num of civs are for the size map I am on. That is normally std, but I will and have done many Huge with 16 civs as well. I normally play monarch, but will play all levels above as well from time to time. Just be sure you understand, I repeat I am not saying anthing bad about the traits or the UU for Germany, only that it is immaterial as it comes to late to make a difference in the games out come. Yes it will be easier to smash tanks/infantry with panzers, that is not critical, as you would have smashed the tanks anyway, just would have lost more units, thats all.
Oh, I do not attack infantry with calvary, that is not prosperous adventure. I will under extreme conditions, not as a rule. When I do not play conquest, I will go to all out warmongering and very early elimination wars (always play with no regen of civs).
It will be interesing to see what the MPaspect will do with some of the civs after PTW. I have a hunch that some of the later UU civs will be found wanting as they will never get to use them. Just as players do now with early UU civs that are close to them, they will be inclinded to go hard after Germany/USA before they can bring those UU to bare.

[Strakorfsky]

Vmxa...

What difficulty were you playing on?

I do agree, ussualy, Germany can make an easy domination the middle or even lat ancient age. But, I ussualy wait till' the ndustrial because I want a bit of fun from the game.

Also, the Multiplayer aspect will probably be people making alliances so they can take down civs with stronger traits (no matter how cowardly an cheap that it). When it comes out this October 29th, I will be awed by the complexity of the intermeshing of skills and such we have discussed on poly.

If anything, people will cheap skate one another into victory, but heh, they did that in real history as well.

-ronald

[Lucarse]

Originally posted by vmxa1
So what, they do not know what to do with them. They will send a few waves and keep 70% or more back in their cities. This allows the human to bust up what ever they send and then start to carve them up.

I have found this even up into the higher levels, where you attack an AI and you know from the spy that they have 30+ MA's, yet during the attack you may see 10 actually attack you and the rest hole up in cities.

I attacked the english at king level and after a good 20 turn war I found in thier last 3-4 cities lay 10 MA's doing nothing??.
They could have chewed up my wounded 2-3hp MA's and slowed my advance greatly but didn't appear.

[Akaoz]

Originally posted by Gen.Dragolen The only think missing is the German self-propelled artillery (Stug III and IV)

D.

The Stug III & IV are not self-proppelled artillery. They are "Sturmgeschütz" or assault guns and tank destroyers. You are thinking of the Wespe and the Hummel.

-Alech

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Strakorfsky
Vmxa...

What difficulty were you playing on?

I do agree, ussualy, Germany can make an easy domination the middle or even lat ancient age. But, I ussualy wait till' the ndustrial because I want a bit of fun from the game.

-ronald

EMP for that game (it was in the post, but it was long).
Emperor, but it is all the same at all the levels. The AI does not really use a different or better strategy at different levels, only has different handicaps (essentially).

[Gen.Dragolen]

Originally posted by Akaoz


The Stug III & IV are not self-proppelled artillery. They are "Sturmgeschütz" or assault guns and tank destroyers. You are thinking of the Wespe and the Hummel.

-Alech

Akaoz,

My grasp of German is a little weak, but I would still classify them as self propelled artillery for two reasons.

First, the Stug's had volunteer Artillery crews, not Panzer crews.

And second, they were used as direct fire artillery support for the infantry and as tank hunters to replace towed artillery.

I have to see what i can do about making a unit to represent them since the German's build about 10000 of them during the war. Granted alot of them were conversions from battle damaged tanks that made it back to the factories for repairs, but their impact on the battlefield was huge. Even their standing orders said they had to contact the Infantry unitsthey were supporting before pulling back from the line to rearm and refuel, for fear of making the infantry think they were being abandoned.

Having very mobile artillery support was essential for the Wehrmach on the Russian front. I keep getting frustrated in Civ III trying to make artillery and bombers keep up with the advancing tanks. For the most part, they only play a role in the initial onslaught, and after that, they help stiffen my defenses in captured cities. After that it's tanks and MI alone...

Besides, as a vehicle, they look way too cool not to have them. And if you really want to go snake on enemy armour, JagdPanther's all the way: rediculously good armour and mobility, low profile stance, and the best tank killing gun from WW2 - the high velocity 88mm.

Historically all of the German equipment was of better design (usually with input from the combat troops going directly to the designers) but they all suffered in terms of reliability. My grandfather was a Panzer Officer in WW2 and was there at the start of Operation Barbarossa. His division started with 310 tanks and by the end of the week, they had covered 600 km and had 5 tanks left. Everyone of them was a mechanical breakdown.

And yes, having some Wespes and Hummels would be great too. I will have to put them on the list of units to make. I think I still have some 1:72nd models to use for the graphics too...hmmm.

The only reason we don't see them in use today is that American tactical doctrine say the best tool with which to kill a tank is another tank. If the US were pressed to produce more M1's in a hurry, to stop an opponent that had huge numbers of tanks (like the Soviets), using a fixed turrent and a large gun would be a cost effective solution. Currently there is no need since no one else can afford to produce or maintain large numbers of tanks similar to the M1. So maintaining a moderate number of tanks is sufficient. (and another reason variable unit support costs by unit type would be a nice tweak in the editor)

I'll have to see what I can find at Civfanatics.com too. These sorts of units are what Firaxis neglected when they were rushing the game design to meet their production deadlines. Good thing they have left us the ability to add to the game...


D.

[Strakorfsky]

Vmxa...

Sorry I did not see, but the computer screen and all that information can play tricks with my eyes. Just try and space it out or put lines inbetween it.

I agree, the A.I. is still as dumb as it is on cheiften difficulty but with production, unit, and anarchy bonuses. I was only curious as to what caliber of a player you are. Not to be nosey but I like getting a perspective of how good you are.

Not saying I am any better because I am still only as good as monarch.

-Ronald

[vmxa1]

I understand and no matter how good one is ( I am not claiming any special skills) you can still learn. I have seen a few posters that seem to know a great deal and have not played passed Warlord. They are just very observant and serious.

[Strakorfsky]

Vmxa...

Yes, very smart people. I am trying to come to poly more often, very good skills on here. Just taking the time to look at the post will give you a much better perspective of how well you play compared to these experts on here that can beat diety.

I try and compare myself against other people I respond to. And I try and keep an open mind about skills that can be learned.

I think that when PTW comes out, we will be able to better demonstarte what "works" against other people.

-Ronald

[Akaoz]

Originally posted by Gen.Dragolen


Akaoz,

My grasp of German is a little weak, but I would still classify them as self propelled artillery for two reasons.

First, the Stug's had volunteer Artillery crews, not Panzer crews.

And second, they were used as direct fire artillery support for the infantry and as tank hunters to replace towed artillery.



D.

What you are talking about is an assault gun, not an artillery unit.

The difference is the method of firing. Stug's moved with the infantry and armor on the fornt line. They gave direct fire support, not indirect.

The Stug's would move up to an entrenched position and fire directly on bunkers, dug in vehicles and trenches. They where used in the way light mortars, rifle ranedes and to a certain extent bazookas where used.

Their job was to give the infantry direct fire support and help them break through enemy strong points, not soften up the line for an attack. Artillery would bombard the enemy from afar and help pin down enemy reserves.

The Stug's where combat vehicles as their armor shows. They where in the front lines, fighting with the infantry and armor, not supporting from the rear.

The Wespe and Hummel would move with the main line to give artillery support. They replaced the normal artillery, because horse drawn artillery could not keep up with the panzer divisions, and where left behind. They where however, not equipped for frontline action like the Stugs.

-Alech

[Palaiologos]

Originally posted by Strakorfsky
"He who conquers, is he who endures." -Perseus

Perseus(the last King of Macedonia) never said that.
It just something the CTP manual wrongly states.

It is correct as a quote however.


The Stug is assault artillery.

[Harovan]

Being German myself, I played the first couple of games with the Germans. This time, I was a pure builder type player, and the Germans were somehow not the right civ for me. Their benefits clearly favor a militaristic playstyle:

• Starting with Archers and Spearmen allows to crush everyone I can reach in the early game. And I looove the Archer rush.
• Cheap barracks are a must for the warmonger, as well as cheap harbors and to quickly connect overseas colonies.
• Double speed promotions increase the chance of leaders. Not mathematically, 1/16 remains 1/16, but more elites means more leaders anyway.
• Cheap libraries and a free tech per era are very helpful, since during multiple wars research is often a bit neglected.
• Playing the Germans, one can't have them as opponents. Yea, that's a benefit, especially early.

Downsides:

• They aren't religious. That's a serious issue, especially for warmongers, who often have to rush a temple.
• They also lack both traits to increase the cashflow - industrious and commercial - which makes them often a pretty poor civ.

Well, I didn't play with the Germans for quite a while now. I'm systematically trying out other traits, currently I'm on the commercial trip.