The concept of political correctness.

[chequita guevara]

jimmytrick is correct, there is a disconnect on what PC means.

To liberals PCism is simple courtesy, not calling people things they don't want to be called, rescuing the history of the powerless, examining the art of other cultures, etc. There is a lot of truth to this.

To conservatives, PCism is thought control, erasing the history of white men, dengrating white men, etc. There is just enough truth to this to make it a valid concern.

The fact is, with any movement, PCism is going to have those people who go overboard, take things to their extreme, etc. Conservatives certainly don't like it when they are compared to Hitler, just because Hitler was a conservative. Neither should they then tar all feminists as being like Catherine McKinnon or Andrea Dworkin. The movement is vast, and as with most things, most people tend to fall in the middle and not in the extremes.

jimmytrick vividly illustrates the reality that many Black people had to live with, and some still did even twenty years ago (and may still today). I'm certain most people didn't know that people in the US still lived like that up into the 1980s.

Guess what jimmytrick, you did something "PC." You wrote about some of the ugly truths about America, you talked about the life experiences of someone outside the white comunity. There are people who even today deny that the effects of racism were ever really that bad.

Yeah, some of the stuff is silly, like saying that the aient Egyptians were really Black people when all the evidence suggests otherwise. Talking about the Tulsa race riot or the history of Gay people or the experiences of women in America isn't silly. Not calling someone a n***** is just simple decency, and yet most people just don't seem to get it. Somehow it's a denial of their rights if you get on someone's case about it.

[Alinestra Covelia]

I think most interesting is the term used to describe a first-year college student.

You can call a man a "freshman" and it won't make any misunderstandings.

If you call a woman a "freshwoman" it often gives the wrong impression.

[Illyrien]

chegitz guevara

"Conservatives certainly don't like it when they are compared to Hitler, just because Hitler was a conservative."

How do you mean that Hitler was a conservative? In my oppinion he was a totalitarian just like Stalin. I would hardly call conservatives totalitarians.

[MrFun]

I should have known that some Apolytoners would use sparodic extreme examples of abuse by PC extremists and distort the meaning of moderate political correctness.


Got another question -- how would men like it if all of the professional occupation titles were ended with the word women?
How would a male police officer like it to be called a policewoman?
How would a male chairperson like it to be called a chairwoman?

How can you not see the sexism that is perpetuated by gender-ending occupation titles that assume that only men have such occupations?

Extreme PC people will jump on you and call you an anti-Semite if you're a sympathizer of Palestinians.
I will not do that, since there are both sides to the Middle East issue, even though I sympathize with Israel more.

Do not distort moderate political correctness with extreme abuse by less-than intelligent people.

[Lincoln]

This thread reminds me of the typical left wing waco university that had a big discussion about a class "picnic". Some blacks said that the word came from some type of racial stereotype so they changed the event to an "outing". This offended the gays so I think they ended up not naming the event anything so that no one would be offended. Of course "event" has something to do with the oppression of women and leaving the title blank offends the air heads...

[Lincoln]

The word "man" Fun refers to both sexes. You might want to check your dictionary. To refer to mankind as "womankind" is absurd and to call a chairman a "chairwoman" when refering to both sexes is likewise absurd. How would I feel? I would feel like the world has gone mad.

[Lincoln]

By the way, when scientists and others refer to "early man" are they talking about only males? Yes__ No__.

[Sava]

double post, sorry

[Sava]

If someone doesn't like the use of a word, its only polite to use another word in its place. Seriously, how much effort is required to be PC? I now use BCE and CE instead of BC and AD.

But really folks, is anyone surprised that the people against PC are selfish right wingers? The same people that would rather kill a thousand Iraqis than pay ten cents more for gas... The same people that won't change two words in the pledge (that weren't even there in the first place) because it goes against my religious beliefs... The same people that will bomb a war-torn country into submission, then run away and claim "we're not into nation building" (Afghanistan)...

[Sava]

Originally posted by Lincoln
By the way, when scientists and others refer to "early man" are they talking about only males? Yes__ No__.

True, but most of them do so not consciously. That's how messed up our society is. This male dominance is drilled into our minds at a young age. Plus, many scientists uses terms like "early humans", "early homo sapiens" now.

Changing this crap takes time and a conscious effort. But it's the right thing to do.

[des-esseintes]

Does anybody else think that "Racist" is the new "N*gger"

[Solly]

Glad we don't have this nonsense in Wales.

[Sava]

Don't worry Boddington, your region will catch up to the rest of the world soon enough.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Welcome into the sissi world ...

[Caligastia]

There is a big difference between being PC and being tactful. To me political correctness is when someone's character is questioned simply because something they said could possibly be interpreted as offensive, even if the intent was not to offend. Political correctness also dictates that if you think differently about certain issues than most PC people, you must be evil.

Political correctness says that its better not to discuss something than risk offending someone.

[Illyrien]

Caligastia

"Political correctness also dictates that if you think differently about certain issues than most PC people, you must be evil."

Agree. During the last danish election, everybody that did not agree with our Socialdemocratic govenment where labelled "ikke stuerene" meaning that the where not good enough to be even considered worthy of being listened too. Funny how freedom of speech only ablies to those with the "right" opinions...

[Lincoln]

Good point Cal. I am sure that even Mr. Fun would agree with that...

I should give a brief history of the changes in names for black Americans over the years:

1. Nigg*rs (which is short for negro which means black.
2. Negros which means black
3. Blacks which means black.

Martin Luther King called himself and other blacks "negros". Now he would be considered to be a racist bigot if he used that term. Meanwhile whites are still called whites. I was caled "blanc" (which means white) when I was in Haiti. My lawsuit will come before the Supreme Court sometime next year.

[Caligastia]

Thats right, political correctness is about having the "correct" opinions. If your opinions are not "correct" then you must be evil. Political correctness is a mindset. The left are the usual culprits, but it happens on the right too.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Lincoln
Good point Cal. I am sure that even Mr. Fun would agree with that...

I won't hold my breath.

I should give a brief history of the changes in names for black Americans over the years:

1. Nigg*rs (which is short for negro which means black.
2. Negros which means black
3. Blacks which means black.

Martin Luther King called himself and other blacks "negros". Now he would be considered to be a racist bigot if he used that term. Meanwhile whites are still called whites. I was caled "blanc" (which means white) when I was in Haiti. My lawsuit will come before the Supreme Court sometime next year.

Its all rather silly isnt it? Its almost as if some blacks are ashamed to be referred to in a way that reveals their race.

[Lincoln]

I am also reminded in the recent flap over the "Barbershop" movie which is to be boycotted by some of the PC crowd because they will not censor the movie to exclude any negative references to civil rights leaders in the 60's. Of course a quick reading of "Bearing the Cross" will show what really went on when the civil rights leaders were alone. The effort then by this latest version of "civil rights leaders" is to keep the truth from being known. That in a nut shell is what is wrong with the PC movement. It is another name for a lie.

[MrFun]

Cal, if you were a male police officer and someone addresses you by the title policewoman, how would you feel?

And Lincoln -- even using man to refer to all of humankind is sexist. That is something that I hope is changing, by using early/prehistoric humans rather than early/prehistoric man.
To use the gender label, man, to refer to both genders is absurd.

I am well aware of the changes in the meaning of such words as "negro."
And to be reasonably politically correct does not mean that you ignore controversial issues in the fear of offending someone.

To be reasonably politically correct, means that you try to avoid offending people through a sense of awareness on how certain words perpetuate sexism, racism, homophobia, and so forth.


Now, to be an extremist, and to abuse political correctness means that you will call all Palestinian sympathizers as being anti-Semitic, when that is not the case.

To be an extremist, and to abuse political correctness means that you will seek to demonize the entire white race, and blame that race for all the world's ills.


I stand by my opinion that when you realize the sexism behind using occupation titles with gender, you would avoid using such words if you respect women.

There is no diminishment in freedom of speech by socially accepting moderate political correctness.
There is no demonization of white men by socially accepting moderate political correctness.

[Caligastia]

Yeah, I heard about that "Barbershop" furor. I knew there would be trouble when I saw the previews where they were saying Rodney King deserved his beating and OJ was guilty.

It is another name for a lie.

Yep, in a PC world its more important to make people feel good than to know or speak about the truth.

[MrFun]

Cal, I have a question for you in my last post, in case you missed it.

[mindseye]

I should give a brief history of the changes in names for black Americans over the years:

1. Nigg*rs (which is short for negro which means black.
2. Negros which means black
3. Blacks which means black.

Why did you leave "African American" off the list?

I once read that many blacks liked the term "African American" not so much because it invoked their African heritage, but because it re-affirmed that they were Americans. The author claimed that in general, blacks were more patriotic than whites.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by MrFun
Cal, if you were a male police officer and someone addresses you by the title policewoman, how would you feel?

I doubt female police officers ever get referred to as a policeman, unless they are ugly bulldyke lesbos.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by MrFun
Cal, I have a question for you in my last post, in case you missed it.

Sorry it took me more than 2 minutes to answer it MrImpatient.

[Lincoln]

"Why did you leave "African American" off the list?"

I didn't think that is a politically correct term anymore. I didn't want to offend any blacks.

[Caligastia]

MrFun, I answered your question in my last post, in case you missed it.

[Dry]

Originally posted by MrFun
Having stated my opinions on political correctness, I have a question for those who complain about political correctness.

What do you see so terrible or wrong with trying not to offend groups of people?
If it offends people -- don't use the word. How terrible is that?

I complain about political correctness, because I feel it like hypocrisy. I would say political corectness is the political correct word for hypocrisy.

PC don't ask you to not to be racist, homophobe or chauvinist, it just ask you not to show it.
Nobody cares if you are racist, you must just behave as if you weren't. To my definition, this is called hypocrisy.

More: PC force you to look at people, at their difference. In order not to offend whatever minority, you have to care the hole day, staring at people, thinking "Mmm, what does this guy/woman look like? Is he/she black, small, jew, gay,... What are the words I should not use?...". It leads you to look at people before talking to them. It leads to complete artificial discussions. Just like it was said about women in another tread: if their dress sucks, you are allowed to tell them. If a black/gay/latino/jew is an a******, then to call him an a****** is the opposite of racism: you treat him like any other human being.

Let me tell you a short story:
Episode1: where Dry discovers racism
I worked 4 years in France. One of our co-worker was a frenchman from carabeian island. He was thus 'brown'.
Each time I told him about the difference between Belgians and Frenchmen, I said "You, the frenchmen..." He always said "Oh, thank you..." It took me 5 or 6 time before finding out WTH he was thankfull for: to call him a frenchman.?!?!?
Episode2: where Dry discovers that some people are black
A few years later, another co-worker and I were talking about the time we were in France and I tried to recall him the guy that were in the same office as XXX, who was resposible for yyy,... After some explanation of what the guy was doing, the co-worker finally said "Oh, you mean the black guy!?" ... For a few seconds, I stayed mouth open... yes, indeed, I forgot that 'detail', yes he was the black guy... Not that I really forgot, but only that it was detail to me, like hair or eye color.
Episode3: where Dry discover PC.
I am in the plane. The plane is almost empty, but the ticketting has given me seat C (AC-DEF possible). On seat A is a black guy. The plane being empty, after door closing, I would normally change place just to have more room (I'm not a small format)... But the guy was black... would he take the fact that I chose another seat offending? Will he think that if I change seat, it is because I don't want to be beside a black? Would the guy be offended by my behaviour?
After a while, angry against myself for being a victim of do I know what racist/anti-racist dilemna, I changed place, as if the guy was white... and the fff...inger for PC.Maybe the guy thought I was racist.
I ff...finger don't care.

Seen from this side of the Atlantic, PC has brought USA to dictatorship of offended people. To be offended seems to be a positive value. Are you offended by something? Good! You will be able to excert your power on others, you will have a feel of what is power. You may even earn money with it. A good trial, and bingo... Yeah, it's good to be offended...
Aren't you offended by anything? Aren't you member of any mionority? Search, search really hard, couldn't you be member of ANY minority? Not even the great majority of the non-smoker minority? Poor bastard, you will have to apologize your whole life through for things you don't event suspect. You will have to apologize for being a male, for being white, for being rich, for being poor, for not being offended, for being happy... may be one day for being alive.
Give money to the black beggar, otherwise you're a racist. Don't care about the white one, except if he's gay.

[Caligastia]

Great post Dry.