Hey, Vel!

[King of Rasslin]

Have you even played the first CTP? I did, and it was so bad I haven't even bothered with this one. I'm puzzled why you would like it, but now that it's selling for $10 I might get it. I love Civ 3 so much more than CTP, but my favorite would be AC. I switched to Civ 3 because the AC AI is truly pathetic, and it got boring.

Anyway, what do you CTP2 guys think of the first one? I didn't mod it because mods usually ruin game balance, but I have heard that there are 1 or 2 good mods for this one. I'm still angry that the first CTP would be so bad.

[Dale]

You know, this is what I find truelly amazing. The Civ3'ers don't play CTP2 because "you have to Mod it". Yet, with Civ3 they'll quite happily install 4 patches and Mods?!? What's the difference?

[SMIFFGIG]

Hey king of Rasslin... read carefully:

Its a general miss conception amongst people who have only played ctp1 and didnt like it, to think that ctp2 is the same (although they never tried it or tried it once) I have to admit, they look similar but thats about it.

My advice to you is simply pick up $10 rush out and get ctp2 then come here download the patch and moddswapper then the mod CRADLE from the downloads section. (and of course install the game)

Just do it. If you like civ games, this will be the best one you have played (i almost gaurentee that) however give it a good go and read around the forums for more info look at the sticky topic in this forum which is FAQ's youl learn alot.


I own Civ3, ctp1, ctp2, civ2 test of time and civ2

And modded CtP2 Is miles and miles the best out of them all.
And the best part is, its still being heavily modded with brand new features and civ3 features being worked on all the time


A worthy buy to say the least

[Maquiladora]

You say your puzzled why Velociryx would like it, and then you say you might buy it? Well if you only trust his opinion, take a look at some of the threads he started and the praise he gave it

Im always reluctant to use mods too, because i like to play the game the way it was primarily intended. So i play with Apolyton Pack mostly. It just makes the AI much harder but keeps the tech tree etc, so no chance of imbalances, not that ive noticed ANY imbalances in other mods.

Only the best Civ3 features are being worked on mind you, not the pain in the arse advisors or how sloooooow it runs or the fact the terrain looks like a 5 year old tried to paint with watercolours.
Try CtP2 in all its oil-painted glory!

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Dale
You know, this is what I find truelly amazing. The Civ3'ers don't play CTP2 because "you have to Mod it". Yet, with Civ3 they'll quite happily install 4 patches and Mods?!? What's the difference?

The difference is, that in Civ3 you have to install 1 patch (the latest, as it contains all others), to have a decent game even without mods.

In CtP2 you have (in that order) to install the 1.11 patch, the modswapper, a bunch of mods, to choose the right mod among many, with scarce descriptions what they do (here I made a terrible mistake, as I started with the most complicated), to deal with language and folder name issues (disclaimer: only if you have a localized version), to ask for help, to get help (thanks to some people here ), to edit text files to apply the help and then to learn a completely new game with completely new rules instead of the old and well known CtP2.

Some people are enthusiastic enough to do this, some have other things to do in their free time and seek only quick entertainment. It's like with operating systems. Some people have got the time and the skills to tinker with settings and write scripts. Such people use Linux and are able to do great things with it. Others can't be arsed to bother with all this and therefor prefer Windows, because it's, at the first look, safer and smoother running, especially for a newbie. Same with the games. Those who like to tinker with slics and a million of text files will prefer CtP2 and do really great things with it. Others want just to play and have fun. They will most certainly play Civ3. I'm in the middle. I use Linux and like to tinker with it, but can't be arsed to bother with CtP2 .

King of Rasslin, Call to Power 2 has been a good game and greatly helped me to shorten the time I had to wait for Civ3. Compared with CivCTP it's a big improvement, even though it doesn't look like at the first glance. If you expect an AI, I must disappoint you, because like in AC they forgot to include one. For an halfway difficult game you'll have to run a mod. Begin with a light one, like the Apolyton pack. Folks here will tell you, that Cradle and WaW are much bigger challenges. This may be true for the advanced player, but you don't believe them. Cradle and WaW are not for newbies of modded CtP2. Start with the vanilla game, then try the Apolyton pack (v1), then the Super Apolyton Pack (v2). Then you may try all others. If you make it that far. I could it not.

[mapfi]

I guess you're mostly right Ralph. I never found it that difficult to install mods for CtP2 though. Just because you're comparing it to linux - which is really difficult if you want it to work properly.
As for the mods - I wouldn't waste time on the Apolyton pack v1. In my experience the SAP v2 is still straight forward playing.

[Maquiladora]

I agree, SAP 2.0 is a solid game, apart from when the AI starts frenzying and they start to brawl around your cities. Then you just nip in behind them inside their empire and take all their cities My only gripe is they dont attack often when theyre outside your city, they just keep pillaging.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
The difference is, that in Civ3 you have to install 1 patch (the latest, as it contains all others), to have a decent game even without mods.

In CtP2 you have (in that order) to install the 1.11 patch, the modswapper, a bunch of mods, to choose the right mod among many, with scarce descriptions what they do (here I made a terrible mistake, as I started with the most complicated), to deal with language and folder name issues (disclaimer: only if you have a localized version), to ask for help, to get help (thanks to some people here ), to edit text files to apply the help...

No lie here - you will need a Mod to get a good CTP2 game.

I will not dispute that you probably have to jump through more hoops in order to get a good CTP2 game, but the point is that it is not as hard as you make it sound. The Activision patch and Modswapper are self extracting files that install themselves.

As for the Mods, SAP is as close as you can get to the default game, because it does not change anything other than the AI and tightens up the diplomacy. By it's very nature, it is a patch. GoodMod also falls into this camp, because it sticks with the default game.

Bottom line - you probably end up doing 10 mintes of work for CTP2 in installation as opposed to 2 minutes with civ3. Is that such a big deal??????

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
...and then to learn a completely new game with completely new rules instead of the old and well known CtP2.

Again, no lie here. The other main Mods are total rebuilds - Sir Ralph is right that there is a learning curve for all of them, because they all have new techs/units/wonders and all of them handle things in subtle and different ways. But they are all stable. Again you have to do a little more in the way of installing the files, but it is not that hard.

What CTP2 does offer, in terms of these Mods , could be considered CTP2 Expansion Packs. You have the opportunity to play the game with the same basic rules and concepts, but with a host of creative innovations and additions. Play a game that is focused on the Ancient age with Cradle... Play 20th century with WAW... Play with a totally rewritten tech tree with MedMod.

And because the community is small, these Mods have had a lot of coordinated effort to make them as good as they possibly can be.

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
King of Rasslin, Call to Power 2 has been a good game and greatly helped me to shorten the time I had to wait for Civ3. Compared with CivCTP it's a big improvement, even though it doesn't look like at the first glance. If you expect an AI, I must disappoint you, because like in AC they forgot to include one. For an halfway difficult game you'll have to run a mod.

I have to admit that I was somewhat stunned by Vel's endorsement of CTP2, especially the default game. I do think that if he continued to play the default game, he will see the limitations in the AI.

But if you look closely at his analysis, you will note that a lot of his excitement is tied into the basic structure of the game (the beauty of PW vs workers, the interface, the feeling of 'Empire building) These are all elements that are tied into preferences - how CTP2 handles these gameplay issues as opposed the how civ3 handles the issues. So if you played CTP1, and hated PW, don't expect to pick up CTP2 and see a difference in that area (although there is now a SLIC file that allows for civ3-style workers in CTP2.)

I have played both civ3 and CTP2 - ultimately I prefer CTP2 because of these preference issues.

I agree, SAP 2.0 is a solid game, apart from when the AI starts frenzying and they start to brawl around your cities. Then you just nip in behind them inside their empire and take all their cities

Not much different from civ3 when I get a slew of tanks and can carve through enemy cities, then raze them to keep going...

[Harovan]

Originally posted by hexagonian
I have to admit that I was somewhat stunned by Vel's endorsement of CTP2, especially the default game. I do think that if he continued to play the default game, he will see the limitations in the AI.

I'm sure he will. Just like he will see the rampant environment pollution and the lack of possibilities to deal with it (in CivCTP I could build the Gaia controller, here too, but oops, that's the end of game), the worthless diplomacy in the vanilla game and the annoying piracy, all things that are toned down with the mods.

[centrifuge]

Come on people... , not another one...

I didn't like Civ-CTP at first either, but that was before I gave it a decent chance, the same thing must be done with CTP2, and for that matter Civ3. They are all worthy editions to the genre, and all with there strengths and weaknesses. Fortunately at least with one of these games (not mentioning any names... just paying attention to the forum that I'm in...) the majority of the weaknesses and/or preference issues can be fixed without bugging the game designer.

[child of Thor]

Here we go! Look Ralphy baby WE KNOW you don't like CTP1/2 very much. So stick to Civ3 which you know much better and like alot more.
If a few more people want to give CTP2 a go what's it to you?
I get about 2-8 hours a week to play any game, as i have alot of other things to do in my life. So i play CTP2,EU2 and Shogun-Total war.
I'm just incredibly gratefull that some good people here have taken time to improve this game and continue to do so, so stop your belly-aching and leave us in peace!

[Harovan]

This place hasn't changed at all. I should have known it. Ok I'll give you peace.

[Pedrunn]

CoT, I think he is just showing his point. We are not as desperate to get players as i were in the last year they just keep coming. He is welcome to do this.
But i've got to addimit i cant take another CTP2 x CIV3 discussion anymore. It all comes to same stuff:

1) CTP2 is matter of liking or not some concepts that are different from Civ3 although we can simulate any Civ3 feature since CTP2 gives almost infinite mod powers. We just cant change the interface (so if you dont like the interface at all CTP2 just isnt the game for you).

2) The AI of the default game is poor. You need Apolyton Pack (read lastest pacth here) to fix it.

3) The whole bunch of mods are not needed. They are like totally new games for free with CTP2 interface. And they are very easy to install (just unzip in the CTP2 directory)

4) The worst it could happen to try it is loose a few 9,99 - 14,99 US dollars.


- End of discussion (I hope)

EDIT: Sir Ralph i hope you dont leave us without reading this post therefore with hard-feelings.
You just asnwered quicker than i could type it.

[Locutus]

Guys,
Be a little bit nicer to Sir Ralph, will you?! I don't usually agree with him either but that mean his opinion shouldn't be respected (even if he might exaggerate things a little - it's not like CtP2ers have never exaggerated Civ3's downsides)...

[Locutus]

King of Rasslin,
Why exactly did you think CtP1 was so bad? If you can tell us that, we can tell you if CtP2 will be worth the while for you. Like others said, if you just don't like the concept of PW or stacked combat, you'd better run back to the safety of the Civ3 forums, but if you didn't like the game balance or interface or something like that, it could well be that (modded) CtP2 is just what you were waiting for...
(Don't worry, we (well, most of us) will respect your opinion and won't bash you for dissing the game or anything, not as long as it's founded on reasonable arguments anyway)

[Pedrunn]

And to think i used to like these CTP2 x CIV3 discussion

[Harovan]

Nobody starts a CtP2 vs Civ3 discussion here. I hate them myself and said this not only once. Dale asked, why people install Civ3, but not modded CtP2, and I answered him. A short abstract is, that it's a bit harder to install modded CtP2, which is for some people still too much.

Then hexagonian said among other things, that Vel, who is playing the vanilla game, will soon see the limits of the AI, and I extended this to the rampant pollution (it's way too high), the diplomacy (say "no" to everything) and the annoying piracy. I mention again, in the vanilla game, hardly anyone here can render this false. And in the same moment I said, that these things are fixed in the mods. The point I wanted to raise was Vel will soon see all facts, why modding was essentially needed.

Locutus, thanks for your intervention, but why some here see this as an offense is just beyond me.

[mapfi]

I think I can tell you why some people did take it as an offence. Whenever you decide to post in these forums it's about the too many times discussed arguement CtP2 vs. CivIII and every post of you has got something bad to say about CtP2. We also know it's not perfect but we happen to like it.
It's not that you are not allowed or welcome to post here but those reading the forums regularly know you're opinion and might be sick of hearing it again and again.
Do we come over to the CivIII forums and post like that? (Ok, there might be some - I don't know...)

[Dale]

When concerned with the CTP2 vanilla game, I completely agree with Sir Ralph. It is a pretty ordinary game. But with the Super Apolyton Pack, I see the game that the designers originally wanted. Such a pity Activision didn't allow them time to finish.

That said, there's also massive faults with Civ3 vanilla, even with the patches. Tech-whoring/trading, lumberjacking (which I understand is fixed now), the fact that the game feels like I'm running City-States instead of an Empire, and my own PERSONAL (note that's it's a personal opinion) annoyance...... workers.

So what it basically boils down to is this:
- Some people like CTP2 and will defend it.
- Some people like Civ3 and will defend it.
- Some people like both.
- Some people like neither.
- Some people like yellow bananas.

So my point is: Get over it. They're two different games, for two different types of people.

[King of Rasslin]

Ok, what I hated the most about Call to Power was the pitiful AI. I actually feel threatened when I start next to the Zulu or the Aztecs! The CtP AI annoyed you with the piracy, and diplomacy was very bad. The CtP AI did what the Civ 2 AI did- annoy you to death or attack you when you are 2 ages behind in technology.

CtP has a load of city improvements that aren't really necessary. Drug store, airport, 5 or 6 different power plants, I can't remember them all. Civ 3 is much simpler, with buildings giving a simple bonus and costing a simple amount to maintain. I think CtP is nicer to builder types, and I am NOT a builder.

Tech progression is rather fast in CtP. In Civ 3, where a spearman can beat a tank, you don't have to pump science to 90% and have a new unit every 10 turns. I love Civ 3 because it turned away from Civ 2, but I feel that CtP just makes things too complicated. I mean that in a bad way! Alpha Centauri is complicated in a good way, but CtP has too many silly concepts (piracy! space cities!) to keep it going.

BtW, I don't ever remember losing a city to the AI in CtP. If you do, can you steal or lose PW points? I like Civ 3's system of having to protect your workers. I think Civ 3 is better for the war type player, since CtP has too many other options to succeed. I respect Vel because his guides helped me when I was new at Civ 3, and I'm just surprised that he would turn to this. I might give it a try, but I'm getting PtW first.

[centrifuge]

Well... to each his own.

[Velociryx]

Been away from the forums this weekend, alternating between testing the latest build of CB and more playin' with Ctp2 in the name of bre'search....

Anyway, to answer some of the questions posed here:

Never played Ctp1, so I don't really know what the key differences are between 1 and 2.

The main reasons I find Ctp2 preferable to Civ3 tho are as follows:

* More involved combat. Units have a variety of different combat abilities that can be combined in army groups in exciting and dynamic ways. This, plus the option to retreat, makes combat MUCH more vibrant in Ctp2 than in Civ3.

* Unconventional warfare. People in the Civ3 forums have been complaining that the Privateer unit is useless, as it cannot disrupt shipping in Civ3....this is *exactly* what Piracy addresses in Ctp2, adding depth to the overall experience.

* Unconventional warfare (continued). Televangilists, Lawyers, Slavers, etc.....fantastic additions to the game. If it was me, I'd have gone the other way, and had buildings inside specific cities (minor wonders, maybe) that would execute these specialized attakcs--slavers being the exception here--rather than making them unit based, but that's just a stylistic difference. The main advantage tho, is that if you want to make use of the greater depth Ctp2 provides via these methods of waging unconventional war, it's built into the framework already. You can simply elect not to use it if it's not your bag. Contrast that with Civ3, where if you WANT to disrupt someone's shipping via piracy, you can't elect to do so, cos the option just isn't there.

* Folks in the Civ3 fora have been clamoring for sea-cities since the game's release.....Ctp2 shipped with that capability.

* The Civ3 Mod Community have complained bitterly about the hard limits on total number of techs, difficulty in making "deep" scenarios and such.....Ctp2, as far as I can see, is to this day, the most highly customizable game out there.

* In Civ3, there is no real "Sense of Empire." Sure, your cities all have the same color of border, and they may all be working toward a common goal (that being, your eventual domination), but there's nothing that really binds the cities together into a cohesive whole. Public Works does that for Ctp2. You can make the conscious decision in the game to take a productivity hit empire wide, in the name of progress for the empire as a whole (example: The latest game I played, I conquered an enemy nation that contained a TON of snowy terrain....bleh....bad for productivity. Immediately after the war, when all was once more peaceful in our world, we raised the PW tax to 80% (taking as much as was possible to take from our cities without causing negatives), and used that huge surge in PW funds to terraform all of the snow-covered wastes into productive land for our new cities there. The process took more than a century, and when we were done, we....as an EMPIRE, had really accomplished something.

* Events, Feats of Wonder and wonder movies. Those are my thing. I love stuff like that. Not present in Civ3.


And now that I have sung Ctp2's praises, here are some of the things I was a bit disappointed in. Call this the beginnings of my Ctp2 wishlist:

1) Not enough diplomatic options. I had to wipe a perfectly good trading partner off the map cos I couldn't get him to leave the little kingdom I was in a military alliance with alone! Would have been GREAT had there been an option "request you call a cease fire with X" option, cos I could have used my diplomatic clout to prevent the war, and kept a trading partner.

2) Resources - Good concept, not carried far enough. I'm waiting patiently to see what's currently being done in this area by the modders working it, but I'm heartened by what I'm hearing so far!

3) Lack of upgradeability for troops in the core game. That really blows. And despite all the awesome summary screens, there's no good way to round up all your outdated troops into one central location for disbanding. It's busywork, and in a game that has done so remarkably well at reducing busywork, this seems a glaring oversight.

4) Barbs should not appear, except in areas covered over by FoW. Another oversight, IMO, and more of an annoyance than anything. If I go to the time and trouble to ensure that I have no FoW areas in my empire, I should not have to deal with Barb uprisings in firmly controlled areas. Migrations from neighboring states are another matter of course. Dealing with barbs in areas I've already got firmly controlled amounts to more busywork.

5) AI. It sucks. Post-mod, the AI is much improved, but still lacks that killer instinct to take advantage if it finds itself in a superior position. In fairness to Ctp2, however, this problem is hardly unique to this game. I've seldom played games where the AI was worth a hoot.

There are some others, but that's enough for now.....I gotta get back to my game....

-=Vel=-

[SMIFFGIG]

Hey Vel, I agree with what you say

1)

Not enough diplomatic options

Look at these diplomatic options that where in a BETA of CtP2 but where not included in the final release:

+Request they mass troops
+Request Invasion
+Request break agreements
+Request Nuke Reduction
+Request bio weapon reduction
+Request nano weapon reduction
+Request annual gold (as in Civ3)

It would be SO cool if these all could be re-implemented

2)

Resources - Good concept, not carried far enough.

Look at these 2 threads from the creation forum

First one "Good Possibilities" alot of very good ideas on how to make the trade system better and like civ3
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=55580

Second one "Pedrunn's Trade System" this is it going into action, a trade system exactly like civ3's only with even more extra stuff. So if all goes well the CtP2 trade system will be better than Civ3's
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=62425

3)

Lack of upgradeability for troops in the core game

Do you mean there are to many troops that dont upgrade to anything else ???
Because there is a SLIC code that makes it so if you discover an advance which allows you to build updated units eg musketmen instead of Pikemen. Through the code a message box comes up asking if you want to upgrade your pikemen and how much it will cost to do so + if there are any other troops that can be upgraded it will ask if you want to upgrade them too. Units must be in a city which makes sense.

Barbs should not appear, except in areas covered over by FoW

They do only appear in FoW. They then sometimes walk into your line of sight and in your city radius? Do you mean they should only appear in Shroud?

AI. It sucks. Post-mod, the AI is much improved, but still lacks that killer instinct to take advantage if it finds itself in a superior position

I agree although it is getting improved all the time

[Martin Gühmann]

Yeah these diplomatic options are missing you mentioned Vel. I am not shur if you can implement them all but it should be possible.

-Martin

[SMIFFGIG]

To King of Rasslin

silly concepts (piracy! space cities!) to keep it going

I dont see these as silly concepts at all, very good concepts, but due to space being un-balanced in the way it was implemented it is no longer in CtP2 which might make u abit happier

don't ever remember losing a city to the AI in CtP

Try Modded CtP2 (as anyone who plays CtP2 should really play) and youll lose a city or three to the AI no doubts

Tech progression is rather fast in CtP

Once again modded CtP2 fixes this problem, Medieval Mod 2 does anyway dunno about Super Apolyton Pack.

Wrestling is real!

Hey! Wrestling is a soap or slapstick comedy


P.S.

diplomacy was very bad

I agree and even with Diplomod which makes it extremely better I still dont think its as good as it could be (note I havent tried the latest version)

[SMIFFGIG]

RE: Playing with the newest version of Diplomod and its good


P.S. Still if those proposals could be implemented would be way cool, there are still strings related to those unused proposals in the cut_str.txt along with a ton of other interesting stuff

[Pedrunn]

3) Lack of upgradeability for troops in the core game. That really blows. And despite all the awesome summary screens, there's no good way to round up all your outdated troops into one central location for disbanding. It's busywork, and in a game that has done so remarkably well at reducing busywork, this seems a glaring oversight.

I already have the code to have a order to do that. And already there is a unit upgrader version in craddle and medmod.

4) Barbs should not appear, except in areas covered over by FoW. Another oversight, IMO, and more of an annoyance than anything. If I go to the time and trouble to ensure that I have no FoW areas in my empire, I should not have to deal with Barb uprisings in firmly controlled areas. Migrations from neighboring states are another matter of course. Dealing with barbs in areas I've already got firmly controlled amounts to more busywork.

They do only appear in fog of war.

+Request break agreements
+Request Nuke Reduction
+Request bio weapon reduction
+Request nano weapon reduction

Arent those already in the game?

+Request they mass troops
+Request Invasion

What is the difference between those two? Couldnt we just force the AI to attack if war is forced to declare with the request "Declare War".

+Request annual gold (as in Civ3)

This would be a nice feature for sure