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Old October 4, 2002, 14:20   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by jshelr
punkbass2000

Your comment above is appreciated. However, the game is relatively historically accurate when you do history on the 6000 year time scale. The fighting civs won. (Maybe the Iriquois shouldn't be in the mix since the Americans killed most of them and settled thier land. Ditto the Aztecs. But, OTOH, the game gives these civs a chance to reverse the real results. They didn't reseach in the Americas fast enough in real life before first contact. So, they got killed by superior tech. Sounds familar to a civ player.)

I'd like to see your attitude apply more in the post-industrial era. Unprovoked attacking past 2000 should be impossible for a democracy (somebody call George Bush, quickly) and cause big negative effects for other government types, IMO.
I'm not sure that I understand what it is that you're trying to clarify. My only guess is that when I said 'historically accurate' you either saw 'historically inaccurate' or thought that I meant so. Otherwise I am at a loss.
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Old October 4, 2002, 15:07   #32
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Artificial Military Strength
Someone else posted this on the "Americans" thread:

Build warriors to artificially increase your military strength to intimidate the AI

This is only a dirty trick after espionage, as before espionage the only way to compare strength is through the mil advisor, but once you have spies, no human would fear your 50 warriors when they have cavalry.
Of course this is an expensive trick to pull in republic or democracy without the free unit support.

Won't be using it myself, as I go straight to republic. It's irritating though to see that our military is "equal" when I have tanks and mech inf to their infantry and cavalry just because they have more units.

Edit: This used to (pre 1.29) look like it worked.

My gripe is that the AI overemphasizes number of units vs. strength. With 2-3 rifle/infantry per city it views it's army as stronger than the 10-15 tanks that I use to roll over them about a city a turn. Sure, with that number of defenders I lose some tanks, but I'm replacing my losses while they're not replacing lost cities. It just seems to me that defensive units are overvalued.
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Last edited by jabberwockysr; October 5, 2002 at 16:27.
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Old October 4, 2002, 15:21   #33
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Re: Artificial Military Strength
Quote:
Originally posted by jabberwockysr
Someone else posted this on the "Americans" thread:

Build warriors to artificially increase your military strength to intimidate the AI
Wasn't this fixed under 1.29??
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Old October 4, 2002, 15:23   #34
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Not only was it fixed, it was actually never broken.

What they fixed in 1.29f was your own advisor's estimate. The AI always worked properly, according to Soren.
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Old October 4, 2002, 17:29   #35
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Sorry, I haven't played in a while
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Old October 4, 2002, 18:23   #36
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well 129f was to improve it, but the advisor is still not making proper evaluation. Maybe a bit better.
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Old October 4, 2002, 18:38   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by alexman
What they fixed in 1.29f was your own advisor's estimate. The AI always worked properly, according to Soren.


Enlightenment dawns.

Thanks alexman
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Old October 4, 2002, 21:05   #38
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Re: Artificial Military Strength
Quote:
Originally posted by jabberwockysr
Someone else posted this on the "Americans" thread:

Build warriors to artificially increase your military strength to intimidate the AI

This is only a dirty trick after espionage, as before espionage the only way to compare strength is through the mil advisor, but once you have spies, no human would fear your 50 warriors when they have cavalry.
Of course this is an expensive trick to pull in republic or democracy without the free unit support.

Won't be using it myself, as I go straight to republic. It's irritating though to see that our military is "equal" when I have tanks and mech inf to their infantry and cavalry just because they have more units.
In a game where I did a lot of reloading (quite a while ago), I have seen the AI go from backstabbing my poorly defended capitol to walk back home and keep himself polite when I just upgraded pikemen to muskets. This made me think that the AI takes regard of true strenght, not just numbers.
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Old October 4, 2002, 22:33   #39
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It would seem to do some of both. I have seen it behave with deference when you get a new upgrade from many units such as Horesemen to Knights or cetain UU like Legionaires. This is why I try to keep upgraded and avoid dead end units like swordmen and archers. Yeah archers go to longbow, but that is a long way off and they are not a top unit when they appear.
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Old October 6, 2002, 15:59   #40
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From the CFC chat on Friday:

"[17:41] <+Soren_Johnson_Firaxis> as to general AI changes... hmmm, they are more reluctant to trade away workers... will charge more for resources... that type of thing."
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Old October 7, 2002, 07:57   #41
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"I'm not sure that I understand what it is that you're trying to clarify."

Sorry for being vague. What I noticed was that your comment favored builder over early warmonger attitudes "the power of war is a game breaker, which is why I've been going about peaceful deity strategies as of late."

I was just pointing out that the game, like real life did, favors warmongers in the BC years. IMO, the game is good in the ancient era, but it should respect your attitude much more in the modern era where it should be harder to be warlike without being fascist, in one form or another, at the same time.
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Old October 8, 2002, 21:23   #42
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Re: Dirty tricks
Quote:
Originally posted by Dominae

2. Sign military alliances to get all your neighbours to go to war, ideally with both sides of roughly equal strength. Do not participate in the fighting, but declare peace with your opponents as soon as possible. This effectively allows you to focus on building up your empire, while the computer opponents are focusing on a difficult war.
I'd like to insist on roughly equal strength. On my last game, I was playing the French on Regent (with AU Mod 1.04) when the Persians declared war on me (I think they requested 12 gold... ). I did not feel like fighting a civ on another continent so I called Shaka (who shared the Persian continent). I signed an alliance with him.

Persia already went berserk on the Babs before I met them but they had a territory just a bit larger than the Zulus. Within 15 turns into the war with Shaka, the Persians had crushed them and took all of their cities.

I created a monster civ. They had one continent, huge military and a lot of cities (and fewer irrigations than usual !! ) I am planning to invade them the minute I get tanks. I can beeline for it so I'll be able to cripple them a bit by this time.

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Old October 8, 2002, 23:14   #43
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Konquest02, I agree with you completely; I originally said "ideally of roughly equal strength", but I think this is actually a requirement for the dirty trick to really work. Like you said, creating a monster civ can be a nightmare.

However, I still think there is merit in the original idea that civs are too willing to go to war (or sign MPPs, same thing, really) when it won't benefit them in the long run.


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Old October 9, 2002, 16:50   #44
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A "dirty trick" I love against the AI is to hurt civs with ancient UUs, especially Greeks, by firing their GA in a time when in gives them the least benefit. If I see a rooming Hoplite with a scouting Warrior in the early game, I attack him. Sure, I'll lose badly, but the Greeks will have 20 turns of a completely useless GA. In the REX phase a civ doesn't need the additional shields, because the main product (settlers) needs both shields and food. But the GA does not give a food bonus. So the city needs as long for a settler as it would need without the GA, and the additional shields are wasted. I make peace ASAP and later can safely attack the Greeks with Knights without facing their GA in many and well developed cities.
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Old October 9, 2002, 17:04   #45
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Is it really true that the AI governor builds settlers even if the number of turns for them to be completed is less than the number of turns remaining for the city to become one more than their population cost (3 unmodded)?

If so, this is a very dirty trick indeed!

I hope Soren is keeping an eye on this thread. In addition to many of the dirty trick exploits, there are lots of problems with the city governor that he needs to fix. (Hint: irrigation+unhappiness = bad).
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Old October 9, 2002, 17:45   #46
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I often see AI capitals, while I found embassies after Writing, with settlers complete shield-wise but not food-wise. This doesn't depend on GA or not. In some cases, like cities in plains without irrigation, or forest cities this difference can get pretty big. A GA makes things even worse.

Let a size 1 city have 2 shielded grassland tiles. It has to produce the Spearman and the Settler. Let's assume no corruption. The Spearman is ready in 10 turns. In the same time the city grows to size 2 and makes now 3 shields. In another 10 turns the settler is ready, both shield and foodwise. So far so good. But with a GA the city has the Spearman ready after 7 turns. 3 turns later it grows to size 2 and has already produced 9 shields of the settler. It needs another 5 turns, which is already a waste, because it produces now 5 shields, and 9+5x5=34. But the settler is ready only 5 turns later, after effectively 20 turns, just like without GA. Mining makes things worse, and irrigation doesn't work well under Despotism.

I have never noticed the AIs to change build queues in order to max out production during the GA. On its place, I would stop to REX entirely and use the GA to arm a big force and counterattack the human player. But in it's current state, the AI eagerly agrees to peace 6-8 turns later and often gives even a tech and gold for it. It will continue 12-14 turns wasting it's GA for nothing.

I once fought a war with Knights with the Romans against the Greeks. That was in the CFC tourney game, IIRC 1-2, you should remember this, alexman. I faced their GA in many, good developed cities, a part of them on hills. My Knights died like flies, while the Hoplite machine made one of them every 2 turns. In each city! It was a big pain in the butt. I managed to advance tho, because the whole conquered Egypt produced Knights for me in addition to my own empire. Without their GA my chances would have been significantly better and my losses less.
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Old October 9, 2002, 18:32   #47
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I just thought of one...

If an AI civ rapidly takes down another, the territory becomes splotched due to lack of culture.

Assuming it is territory that you don;t want for your own empire any time soon, get in there with a Scout or Explorer ASAP, and pillage the roads to your heart's content!
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Old October 9, 2002, 18:41   #48
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From my post in the General > Dirty Trick thread:
My fave dirty trick/downright CHEAT:
Save game then Plant Spy.
If Spy is caught & killed, then Reload (and nevermind planting the spy)
Else continue with knowledge of army strength (weakness usually, of course) and spaceship progress.
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Old October 9, 2002, 18:47   #49
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Sir Ralph, nice addition to the list; forcing the AI to waste their GA by exploiting their agressive tendencies is certainly a dirty trick in my book.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Let a size 1 city have 2 shielded grassland tiles. It has to produce the Spearman and the Settler. Let's assume no corruption. The Spearman is ready in 10 turns. In the same time the city grows to size 2 and makes now 3 shields. In another 10 turns the settler is ready, both shield and foodwise. So far so good. But with a GA the city has the Spearman ready after 7 turns. 3 turns later it grows to size 2 and has already produced 9 shields of the settler. It needs another 5 turns, which is already a waste, because it produces now 5 shields, and 9+5x5=34. But the settler is ready only 5 turns later, after effectively 20 turns, just like without GA. Mining makes things worse, and irrigation doesn't work well under Despotism.
Hm, and people originally said the AI was "cheating" by getting extra units at the beginning of the game. Seeing how inefficient the AI can kind of puts things into perspective...


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Old October 9, 2002, 19:56   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Theseus
Assuming it is territory that you don;t want for your own empire any time soon, get in there with a Scout or Explorer ASAP, and pillage the roads to your heart's content!
I often do so in the early game, when there are still big culture gaps between the AI cities. Pillaging roads, that are not inside the culture borders, is not an act of war, but will interrupt the supply with resources and luxuries and severely hurt the AI's growth and unit building.

This is a pretty dirty trick too; I have never seen the AI pillage roads without being at war.
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Old October 10, 2002, 07:08   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I often see AI capitals, while I found embassies after Writing, with settlers complete shield-wise but not food-wise. This doesn't depend on GA or not. In some cases, like cities in plains without irrigation, or forest cities this difference can get pretty big. A GA makes things even worse.
The worst case I've seen was when Russia had built Moscow in the middle of a load of tundra, and it was stuck at size two with no excess food, plus a fully 'built' settler (in terms of shields). It had other cities, since this was on emperor, where the AI gets another free settler (or perhaps a nearby city had taken the only available food source that Moscow had previously been using). AFAICS it was stuck like this until we got into a war, and the production was changed to a military unit instead.
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Old October 10, 2002, 13:32   #52
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The AI doesn't get a free settler on Emperor. Cathy must have found one in a hut with the scout. But your observation of AI builds matches mine pretty good. Soooren? Hello?
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Old October 10, 2002, 14:22   #53
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Heh, I do the same thing Sir Ralph - if I see AI roads outside of their territory, I cut 'em. Absolutely. Anything to hinder them.

The GA thing is devilish... but dangerous. You run the risk of creating a monster.

I too have noticed via establishing embassies that the AI will often have the production of a settler done, but sit there waiting for the city to grow. I've seen size 1 capitols with fully built settlers.

By the way, the more the AI gets improved, the more I favor tweaking the basic advantages it gets. If Soren fixes various AI weaknesses, the game essentially gets harder. If the AI was beefed up using the suggestions that many of us here at 'poly have posted, then I'd like to see some new intermediary difficulty levels.

For instance, the jump from Monarch to Emperor includes an extra AI production bonus, AND a change in citizen happiness. If the AI really gets better, a level with the bonus but with Monarch happiness... or vice versa... would be nice. It would be nice to be able to customize difficulty, actually. You choose the AI production bonus. You choose the AI science bonus. You choose the AI to AI trade factor (I know you can adjust this in the editor now, but I'm talking about the setup screen), you choose the happiness factor for you and for the AI, you choose the AI's bonus units, etc.

Somebody smack me, 'cause I'm dreaming.

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Old October 10, 2002, 14:49   #54
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*smacks Arrian

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Old October 10, 2002, 16:06   #55
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Ah, thank you punkbass. I needed that.

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Old October 10, 2002, 22:36   #56
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About the cutting roads tactic.

I used to do this too, but it seems they seem to go more hostile when doing so. IE cautious to annoyed.

Could be pre 1.29.
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Old October 10, 2002, 23:05   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arrian

You choose the AI to AI trade factor (I know you can adjust this in the editor now, but I'm talking about the setup screen), you choose the happiness factor for you and for the AI, you choose the AI's bonus units, etc.

-Arrian
Off topic- AI to AI trade factor starts at 110(i think) for cheiftain and increments up. Does lowering those numbers lower the trade rate?
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Old October 11, 2002, 01:30   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tuberski
Off topic- AI to AI trade factor starts at 110(i think) for cheiftain and increments up. Does lowering those numbers lower the trade rate?
It is my understanding that if you lower it to 100, then they just won't trade, as it is no longer deemed to be profitable. They would just as soon spend the beakers as buy it.
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Old October 11, 2002, 13:28   #59
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Lowering the AI-to-AI trade rate lowers the "discount" one AI may offer to another, but it shouldn't affect the fair offer price. Soren has indicated that an AI will value any given asset at its "fair value" (whoever that is determined) and seek that fair value from an AI trading partner. If and only if the AI trading partner doesn't have sufficient "stuff" to pay fair value, the offering AI may accept "less than fair value." The "less than fair value" amount is determined by the AI-to-AI trade rate. IIRC, the AI-to-AI trade rate may be simply interpreted as "130 = AI will value 100 as 130; 140 = AI will value 100 as 140," etc. So, if the "fair value is 140 gold but the AI trading partner only has 100 gold worth of stuff, the trade could still be done as long as the trade rate was at least 140 or higher; or, in other words, the higher the AI-to-AI trade rate, the more "affordable" items will be to a poorer AI. A very high AI-to-AI trade rate aids in helping those AI civs that are falling behind to not fall completely behind.

Soren also indicated that this feature is intended to allow the AI a common human decision that "it is better to get something than nothing" when a trading partner doesn;t have full price handy (but notice that it is apparently better to get somethning than nothgin only if it is from an AI ).

Don't know if Jaybe's point about setting it to 100 produces no trades or not - I suppose it could but it also might not.

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Old October 18, 2002, 12:20   #60
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Those of you who feel guilty because you are smarter than the AI, do the following:

In the Industrial Age. Place a single Longbow on a Galleon. Travel across the ocean to the continent you want to invade.

D-Day has begun!! Now you don't feel so guilty do you?



Anyway I agree with some of these posts about the AI canceling agreements. They do it more often than I do, especially declaring peace before the alliance has expired! I sign a peace treaty with Hiawatha and Xerxes goes from "gracious" to "annoyed". Sometimes even after the alliance has expired!!!

But hell if Xerxes won't be quick to make peace with Monty 4 turns after he signs an alliance. Do I get to be "annoyed" at Xerxes?? But if I declare war on him, because he annoyed me, it damages my reputation, and not his!

Actually I use this as an exploit too. Because I already took the Aztec cites I wanted. So I can make peace too.

Actually I just thought of something. If Xerxes double-crosses me, his foreign advisor should be telling him that Ronald Reagan is "annoyed". There should be some way to set your mood which would influence the other leaders. Sort of like in Civ2 Hotseat.

Something more sophisticated than "Cleopatra is a known liar and a cheat." My guy says that about everyone.
__________________
I've increased my medication and I am now able to experience pleasure... especially when my Legions march on Berlin and capture the Great Wall! >:-)
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