Machiavelli Institute: Aztec Encroachment

Robber Baron · October 2, 2002, 10:18

The Aztecs have taken Washington. Jaguar Warriors (actually, probably jaguar knights) are on the march (actually, the gallop). Chicago seems threatened. The Americans are in no position to resist. They will quickly be engulfed, if Montezuma has indeed mounted a full-scale invasion.

What should we do? Is it too late to marshal a military campaign to seize, at least, Chicago? I assume we don't want to go to war with the Aztecs for this prize. (They outnumber us militarily, and have knights.) Thoughts?

zeit · October 2, 2002, 10:24

if chicago will be taken, then we'll just have to seize all the rest for ourselves, anyway, we should mount an attack ASAP, with the few knights we can have from upgrading the WC. Anyhow, war with aztec is definetely not an option right now, or seens like one for the near future.

Inverse Icarus · October 2, 2002, 12:36

we could sign a military alliance with them against the americans to better relations

well, i wouldn't spend money on it, but it should be considered.

DAVOUT · October 2, 2002, 13:20

They are now close neighbours, they will visit us repetedly, and we will have to ask them to leave ... We have better to prepare ourselves; peace is slightly delayed ...

zeit · October 2, 2002, 13:44

I checked the last save (440AD), and right now the Aztec are actually willing to give us all their gold (23g) and their maps for an alliance against america...
even more tempting is getting a good deal on Invention for it, although we are about to acquire this tech from persia, perhaps they even have gunpowder, and we can get that instead?

Aggie · October 2, 2002, 14:07

We can wait until we beat persia then negotiate the alliance with aztecs when we are ready. It would be cool to get paid for soemthing we are doing anyway.
Aggie

GhengisFarb™ · October 2, 2002, 14:14

No alliance!

America may grow tired and settle for peace with America, that is far less likely if sign an alliance with them against America.

BigFurryMonster · October 2, 2002, 14:20

Quote:

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
America may grow tired and settle for peace with America, that is far less likely if sign an alliance with them against America.

Uhhh.... I don't know the time zone you're in, but aren't you getting too tired to post on Forums?

GhengisFarb™ · October 2, 2002, 14:40

Quote:

Originally posted by BigFurryMonster

Uhhh.... I don't know the time zone you're in, but aren't you getting too tired to post on Forums?

It's lunchtime.

BigFurryMonster · October 2, 2002, 14:49

Well I'd better give you something to think about during lunch, then.

The Aztecs are willing to give us 23 g (all their gold) and their World Map for an Alliance versus the Americans and an Alliance versus the Persians! How 'bout that?

GhengisFarb™ · October 2, 2002, 14:54

Quote:

Originally posted by BigFurryMonster
Well I'd better give you something to think about during lunch, then.

The Aztecs are willing to give us 23 g (all their gold) and their World Map for an Alliance versus the Americans and an Alliance versus the Persians! How 'bout that?

We want to end the war with the Persians and get all their technology after we have their homeland which is worth quite a bit more than 23 g.

Aggie · October 2, 2002, 15:42

Ghenigis I was only considering an alliance with the aztects when our troops our going to attack the next turn, not earlier. BFM I wouldn't make an alliance against persia becasue then when we make peace in 2 turns we would take a rep hit.
Aggie

ruby_maser · October 2, 2002, 16:47

Since the aztecs already have washington and the bulk of our troops are nearer to Persia (and the best estimate for getting them over that way is 8 or 9 turns), we may have to kiss America goodbye for now.

zeit · October 2, 2002, 17:03

Quote:

Originally posted by ruby_maser
Since the aztecs already have washington and the bulk of our troops are nearer to Persia (and the best estimate for getting them over that way is 8 or 9 turns), we may have to kiss America goodbye for now.
.

Not neccasarily true, the AI might have only few troops and might fail to capture another city, and their reinforcements might be far off, we can mount small scale attack in 4-5 turns *right Aggie?*, and after another 4 turns bring the rest of the forces, so kissing america goodbye is a bit too pessimistic right now.

GodKing · October 2, 2002, 17:11

If we are willing to wait 20 turns before taking america, we can gift them some resources to strengthen them.

What about an aliance AGAINST the aztec, with the americans. Does this hurt us diplomatically if we then attack the americans (our nominal allies?)

What about bribing the germans against the aztec. They were just in a war, so I doubt they have good relations.

We have lots of options... time to think.

I suspect that if the americans and aztec were to make peace, it would have occured when the aztec raized the first city (Pittsburgh??? on the coast, about 10-15 turns ago). Now with washington gone, the aztec smell blood and will likely try to kill off the americans. So I would not count on peace, but there are lots of other options.

zeit · October 2, 2002, 17:32

Is war with the Aztecs really a practical option right now?
i hardly think so, our best chance is to move fast against america while getting as much as we can from Aztecs for an alliance against them.

joncnunn · October 2, 2002, 17:42

I'd be shocked if the Aztecs didn't go after the American capital next.

Washington runs a risk of flipping right back to the Americans if they made peace right now. If they keep the American capital instead of razing it, this means that they are planning on anexing both remaining American cities.

If however they raze the capital, there's a chance that the Aztecs may make peace with the Americans taking the luxary city and leaving the Americans one city in the east for us to finish off.

I'm for an all out culture-war with the Aztecs over the Americas to clear them out. This may also net us a Greek city. (Temples + Catherdrials + other culture buildings on those border cities, rush built as fast as possible after at least one turn normal building. [Costs 2X the gold to rush build something not started yet.])

History Guy · October 2, 2002, 18:07

Blast. Never mind the rather unlikable Aztecs, I say we should bloody well invade America now, this minute, if you like sign the alliance, but in that case, get the war over immediately. We procrastinated long enough as it is discussing the matter. I say our best bet is to march in right now and take the rest of the Americans before the Aztecs do, and get something out of this other than these rather unsavory neighbors. We can fight and win two wars in the next couple of turns. I want to see our forces take America, and much of Persia. If we don't, it's our own mistake. We should have finished the job long ago, and now that the time has come, let us not throw away the chance again, let's take the rest of America.

As for the Aztecs, a good tactic might well be to build roads into Washington, and to connect it with other cities, and there to build in the neighboring cities libraries. Perhaps Washington will quickly become tired of these Aztecs and rebel, to join our own magnificient civilization. I think that this would be the best course of action, and it most certainly would not be a detriment to ourselves.

And by the way, in case you haddened guessed, I'd like to join the Institute...but I can't find the original thread. Is it alright if I join here?

Robber Baron · October 2, 2002, 19:03

Quote:

Originally posted by History Guy
... And by the way, in case you haddened guessed, I'd like to join the Institute...but I can't find the original thread. Is it alright if I join here?

Yer in, 'Guy. (And anyone else who cares to join can find the Institute hq thread in my sig.)

Zero · October 2, 2002, 19:08

[roleplay]
On behalf of Ministry of propaganda (if we have one that is) I would like all of you to stop referring to Apolytonia capturing american cities before the wretched aztecs do. Our government plans no such actions! Instead, we plan to liberate the american cities from the evil rule of abe and doom of fallin into the bloodthirsty montezuma and join the bortherhood and liberty of working hard and serving the kingdom of apolytonia's monarch... that humane act.. is being considered

[/roleplay]

Robber Baron · October 2, 2002, 19:16

ahem.
American refugees fleeing the carnage in Washington report that the Aztecs cut open the torsos of the Yankee troops as they fell in the field, eating the still-steaming hearts of their enemies! They plead for protection, beg us to help them, gaze in awe at our fierce war chariots! Apolytonians, in the name of the Beneficent Banana we are called on a crusade of mercy!

MrWhereItsAt · October 2, 2002, 20:50

We're currently deep in Persian territory, dispensing joy to the oppressed peoples. There's only so much mercy we can give out at one time. America will have to wait.

Arnelos · October 2, 2002, 21:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Calc II
[roleplay]
On behalf of Ministry of propaganda....
[/roleplay]

[roleplay]

No-one has a "Ministry of Propaganda"... no such things exist.

There are Ministries of Truth, Ministries of Public Information, and Official Press Agencies... but never Ministries of "Propaganda". We do not engage in "propaganda", we mearly tell the truth - and the truth speaks for itself.

Example: "Pravda", the Soviet public information paper (meaning "Truth" in Russian)

Just an FYI

Arnelos · October 2, 2002, 21:27

I am absolutely against ANY war with the Aztecs until AFTER a substantial period of peace UNLESS (and ONLY unless) one of the following conditions compels us to fight them:

1. The sole source of saltpeter reachable to us is discovered in Aztec-held territory in former America.

2. The Aztecs declare war on us.

Other than that, it is NOT in the interests of Apolytonia to go to war with the Aztecs... baring those two reasons, we have absolutely NOTHING to gain from fighting them for at least quite some time. Perhaps at some point in the late middle age or the early industrial age the geopolitical situation will be more conducive to an Apolytonian attack on the Aztecs, but for now it's certainly out of the question.

XOR · October 3, 2002, 01:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Arnelos
I am absolutely against ANY war with the Aztecs until AFTER a substantial period of peace UNLESS (and ONLY unless) one of the following conditions compels us to fight them:

1. The sole source of saltpeter reachable to us is discovered in Aztec-held territory in former America.

2. The Aztecs declare war on us.

Other than that, it is NOT in the interests of Apolytonia to go to war with the Aztecs... baring those two reasons, we have absolutely NOTHING to gain from fighting them for at least quite some time. Perhaps at some point in the late middle age or the early industrial age the geopolitical situation will be more conducive to an Apolytonian attack on the Aztecs, but for now it's certainly out of the question.

Or, perhaps, we should consider the threat they represent to humanity and ally with Otto and Liz against Mingapulcoman to cause the 3 of them to wage war, kill, die and lose units, workers and production while we comfortably liberate our beloved american cities...

Torkkeli · October 3, 2002, 03:02

I agree with Arnelos and MWIA.

We do not want to attact the Aztecs until we are strong enough and have the need for it. Americans just have to wait as we don't have the power what it takes. We should just end the Persian campaign and then settle for peace and build our empire.

And I'm strongly against any alliances at this point of the game. As there is no more land to expand to the other civs are starting to expand by force. Should we get in a war with one more civ I think we are in serious trouble as we have very weak defence.

Build more defenders!

Arnelos · October 3, 2002, 04:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Torkkeli
Build more defenders!

I fully agree, as apparently does the current SMC (if you read his posts on the issue in other threads).

Torkkeli · October 3, 2002, 04:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Arnelos

I fully agree, as apparently does the current SMC (if you read his posts on the issue in other threads).

Great! At least one of the ministers has realized our situation.

zeit · October 3, 2002, 08:47

Arnelos, what you're saying is that we shouldn't even try and take over what's left of america, or that we should not wage war with Aztecs? , because it seems that The SMC actually does have plans for a quick assault on america, which i fully support, as well as most of the public (check 'War" poll). So yes, let us spread our Banana Justice in the land of America.

Vitreous Humor · October 3, 2002, 09:16

Yes, lets grab what we can of America (all three cities of it..) before the Aztecs but try to avoid a war with them. Chicago and incense valley would be good to get and corner the market on incense but...

I'd be willing to pass on the plains cities but is incenese valley worth a war with the Aztecs? If we did get first would they attack us to capture it?