Anarchists chant pro-terrorist slogans at Athens rally

[Bereta_Eder]

your argument is just mentioning names such as cicero. hardly worth an explanation apart from where cicero got his ideas and what you said. that the romans copied most of it all from greeks.


the fact that you were in protests dont mean much. we are talking about how democratic your country is or isnt.

[MarkG]

paiktis, what's with the french flag?

[Bereta_Eder]

bored with the greek one

[Felch]

Originally posted by paiktis22
then you should not complain when terrorists kill your people since you obviously regard it as just punishment.

I would say that the terrorists viewed it as just. However, the new Rome doesn't have to tolerate justice. We will murder, rape, and pillage whoever we want. And Greece can't do a damn thing to stop us.

there is no ethnic cleansing in the US but there are more dead from its inhuman violence over the years. besides the balkans isnt my country (another surprise maybe)

I never said the Balkans were in your country. I said they were in Europe.

Murders happen in the US. I never said they didn't. However, few Americans live in abject fear of being murdered at any moment. Mostly criminals kill other criminals. Victims of crimes often know the person who is attacking them, and while that doesn't make it good, it means that people are able to have some control over their lives.

i'm glad you acknowledge your "culture" is trash. ours isnt the factthat you dont see more of our films is a matter that concerns you, solely

Okay. I don't really care though.

american cannot compared with rome unless by dumb witted americans to explain why would be a waste of internet space

I'm tired of this bullshit. I already gave you reasons why we're like Rome. You've given no reasons explaining why we aren't.

[Bereta_Eder]

if the US rapes and murders then it is our job to stop it. islamists use terrorism we use whatever powers the EU has.

your "arguments" about the US and Rome are laughable at best. where to start?

[Felch]

Originally posted by paiktis22
your argument is just mentioning names such as cicero. hardly worth an explanation apart from where cicero got his ideas and what you said. that the romans copied most of it all from greeks.

My argument is that America's founding fathers were more influenced by Rome than by Greece. Romans derived some ideas from Greece, but they certainly were not copied. They have a distinct flair, one you would recognize if you compared and contrasted them. America embraced the Roman views more than the Greek ones, since our founding fathers viewed democracy as dangerous and unstable.

the fact that you were in protests dont mean much. we are talking about how democratic your country is or isnt.

I said Americans are free to protest. You said I was wrong. I said that I'd been to a protest. Now you're telling me that it doesn't matter?

I never said America was very democratic. I said it was intended to be a republic, with the rule of law, not a democracy. We're arguing about nothing.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Felch X
I'm tired of this bullshit. I already gave you reasons why we're like Rome. You've given no reasons explaining why we aren't.

He isn't interested in giving you actual reasons. He just wants to see how long you'll tolerate him spouting BS before ignoring him.

[Bereta_Eder]

murders happen in the US is an understatement. your violence is inhuman compared to european and particular to greek standars (lowest crime rate in the EU itself). more people die from violencein a week in the US than in the WTC terrorist attacks.

[chequita guevara]

paiktis, the Greek Giancarlo.

[Felch]

Originally posted by paiktis22
if the US rapes and murders then it is our job to stop it. islamists use terrorism we use whatever powers the EU has.

your "arguments" about the US and Rome are laughable at best. where to start?

Start with the fact that the US is the overwhelming power in the world, that our forces are stationed in a majority of the nations of the world, that our clearly inferior culture is exported to billions around the world, and that our economic and military strength can only be rivaled when entire continents gang up on us.

[Bereta_Eder]

greece is also a republic yet infitenly more democratic than the US. direct democracy cannot work in large populaces everyone knows that. to compare modern nation states with ancient city states is absurd at least. romans did copy although they did develop their own flair. yet to compare rome itself with the US system is again absurd.




being in a march doesn endow you with knowledge of the laws as you claimed in the beggining

[Felch]

Originally posted by paiktis22
murders happen in the US is an understatement. your violence is inhuman compared to european and particular to greek standars (lowest crime rate in the EU itself). more people die from violencein a week in the US than in the WTC terrorist attacks.

Yeah, we're a savage and violent country. We **** TNT and fart napalm. We'd rape a fellow's own mother as a way of saying, "Hello." Instead of ID cards we all carry guns, and the police identify us by the heads of our fallen enemies that we lash on our belts. Frankly, I don't know why you're so eager to start a fight with such a clearly unbalanced and barbaric bunch of people. You do know what we did to Dresden, Tokyo, Berlin, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Hanoi, My Lai, and other villages, towns, and cities around the world, right?

We are the all seeing, all killing, badasses of the world. Get used to it, and quit your *****ing, paiktis.

[Bereta_Eder]

you have no power to make dictations as to how we run our lives. your laws cannot be enforced to us.

rome's did.


your military power is overstated and hugely dependnant on european cooperation. take that away and you fall like a giant on glass legs.

rome's didnt.

your culture is like a hamburger, cheap and only good for a quick snack while the real dinner remains elsewhere.

your "culture" is not exported as m,uch as you think either.

rome formed europe into one coherent entity. you cannot claim the same.


rome was the most civilized place on earth (or europe) at that time. the US is one of the least civilized countries in the west.


do you have any more arguments?

[Bereta_Eder]

i dont believe you're badasses nor very potent. you are being used to serve purposes which are not in your immideate understanding.

your place in the world, for the moment, is beneficial to us even though your country does suck (but thats your problem) and you get all the rap for it like terrorist attacks (but thats your problem as well).


youir corporations live well, your people do not. here it isnot the same.

[Felch]

Originally posted by paiktis22
greece is also a republic yet infitenly more democratic than the US. direct democracy cannot work in large populaces everyone knows that. to compare modern nation states with ancient city states is absurd at least. romans did copy although they did develop their own flair. yet to compare rome itself with the US system is again absurd.

Greece is more democratic than the United States. Your people are apparently free to vandalize property. I can't say that most Americans enjoy that liberty.

I didn't say that they were the same. I said that our system was modeled on it. It was. The founding fathers looked to Rome for inspiration when they were building our government. I hate to say it, but that's just the simple historical fact, something you would know if you studied early American history.

being in a march doesn endow you with knowledge of the laws as you claimed in the beggining

I never said being in a march endowed me with knowledge. However, it did endow me with personal experience. I saw what American protests are like first hand. That's a claim you simply can't make.

I know the laws of my country because I'm a (moderately) good citizen.

[Bereta_Eder]

if youll excuse me i have to go now, it's pretty late here.
cu around.

[Shi Huangdi]

"paiktis, the Greek Giancarlo."

Excellent comparison.

It is sad that the Greeks would actually come out in such strong support of terrorism. This shows them to be a barbarian instead of civilized people. I only feel bad for decent Greeks like MarkG whose country's reputation is tarred by the barbarian like of paiktis and N17

[Arrian]

Well, so much for not feeding the troll.

-Arrian

[Felch]

Originally posted by paiktis22
you have no power to make dictations as to how we run our lives. your laws cannot be enforced to us.

Is Greece Communist? No. Why isn't it Communist? Because America imposed its will upon you.

You might be free to protest now in October, paiktis, but come November our puppets could crush another protest as ruthlessly as they did in the past.

your military power is overstated and hugely dependnant on european cooperation. take that away and you fall like a giant on glass legs.

Rome's military power rested very heavily on foreign subject states supporting it. Auxiliaries and tributary support allowed Rome to force foreign states to suplement its own military. We are the same. However, to say that we would fall on glass legs is simply not true. You underestimate just how much money our 300 billion dollar defense budget represents. While I don't like wasting that much money, I do respect the fact that it gives us the ability to act pretty much however we want, wherever we want, within a rather short time frame (less than a year certainly).

your culture is like a hamburger, cheap and only good for a quick snack while the real dinner remains elsewhere.

your "culture" is not exported as m,uch as you think either.

rome formed europe into one coherent entity. you cannot claim the same.

You know something about my culture. I know virtually nothing about yours. Hence, I can infer that my culture is exported more than your culture is.

The Roman Empire was not exactly one coherent entity, it had regional flavors, and Rome rarely supplanted entire cultures. It influenced everything, but it didn't make everything into little Romes. It essentially did what America does, it influenced but didn't dominate culturally.

rome was the most civilized place on earth (or europe) at that time. the US is one of the least civilized countries in the west.

Gladiators and widespread slavery are hardly hallmarks of civilization. Besides, a Greek should know that his own countrymen were highly prized as tutors for the Romans. The Romans viewed Greek culture as superior to their own. The Roman culture was primarily brutal, martial, and imperial, just like America.

do you have any more arguments?

You're gone, so we can continue this some other time.

[Ned]

No paiktis, what you here on this board about freedoms in America are entirely false. As soon as the cameras move away, the police machine gun pro-terrorist demostrators until they are all dead. Soon Bush will unveil the new American flag - the Stars and Bars with a fascist symbol embelishing the center where the two bars cross. Then we will really crack down. Watch out!

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Oh wait, that's redundent.

The word is tautology A good word, even if I say so myself

Protests, riots? We all know what happened when the neo-nazis made their presence known in the UK, they were counted by a stronger presence against their filth. And it will happen again. There are far more willing to oppose neo-nazism than support it. People react.

[Imran Siddiqui]

paiktis, the Greek Giancarlo.

[Ned]

Just let me say that I agree with paiktis. Turkey is a problem that we have to deal with eventually.

Paiktis's only fault, I believe, is that he does not understand that the United States is Greece's best friend and will be there for it down the road - as soon as this Iraq crisis is behind us.

[Ned]

Originally posted by paiktis22
you have no power to make dictations as to how we run our lives. your laws cannot be enforced to us.

rome's did.


your military power is overstated and hugely dependnant on european cooperation. take that away and you fall like a giant on glass legs.

rome's didnt.

your culture is like a hamburger, cheap and only good for a quick snack while the real dinner remains elsewhere.

your "culture" is not exported as m,uch as you think either.

rome formed europe into one coherent entity. you cannot claim the same.


rome was the most civilized place on earth (or europe) at that time. the US is one of the least civilized countries in the west.


do you have any more arguments?

And remember, Rome was the ultimate fascist state - the prototye, IIRC.

[axi]

Here is an editorial in English from Athens Indymedia, a forum which has been into the center of the storm of the past few days. It explains alot of things about the situation:

After the arrest of 17 alleged members of the 17N group, the greek state has claimed that it has achieved a huge blow to "terrorism" in this country. But the real terror was just about to begin..

The arrests of the alleged 17N group members during this last summer, was greeted by the Greek and international mass media as a "huge success" of the Greek police and government against "terrorism". The U.S. State Department itself gave its congratulations to the Greek Government, linking this arrests with the "global war against terrorism" that was launched by Pr.Bush more than a year ago.

The State-media power complex could not miss this favorable situation, and grasped the opportunity: from the days following the first arrests, the Mass Media created a climate of general fear and hysteria amongst Greek society, since most of the 17N members were still at large. "Journalists" were free to spread any kind of rumors, which were kindly provided by the police, about persons suspected of belonging to the group. Acting as police investigators, the "stars" of Greek TV were interrogating people in their news shows, asking them information about suspects and the ones arrested. The whole Greek society was asked to snitch on their neighbors, through calling a police hotline telephone number, in case anybody noticed something "suspicious". They had managed to impose a terror hysteria on the whole of Greek society...

After the police has claimed to have arrested all the members of the "core" of the 17N group, the joint State-Media operation entered a new stage. The focus was turned to people "supporting" the group, and to other - less "famous" - urban guerilla groups. Having achieved the social consent for "rooting out terrorism" they started to move against particular people and whole political tendencies of the far-left and anarchism. The witch-hunt had begun...

From the first days of this new anti-terror era that Greek society is still living, there where people determined to defend civil liberties and political expression and ideals against this head-on state and media attack. The most active have been the "Network in the defense of Political and Social Rights" and the "Coalition against State Terrorism". This groups have defended, politically and legally, many leftists and anarchists that were accused of terrorism during the last many years, which are called in Greece the "usual suspects". All of them have been declared innocent from the Greek Justice, during the last 25 years..

These two groups were almost the only voice in Greek society asking for fair trials of the alleged 17N members, speaking against the violation of the arrestees civil rights during their arrests and their conditions of custody (all are held separately in very small prison cells, resembling Turkey's "white cells", they are facing problems communicating with their lawyers etc.). They were also the only groups to claim that November 17 groups motives were political - and not commonly criminal as the State and Media say - even though they strongly disagree with the group's tactics. The lawyers of the alleged leader and sub-leader of the group, also belong to the Network in the defense of Political and Social Rights.

In early September, Avraam Lesperoglou, an old-time "usual suspect" was brought under trial again, for a charge of which he had already been declared innocent. After a week-long trial, in which many legal procedures were violated, the court failed to declare him guilty: the jury, common members of the Greek society, all voted for his innocence.

It was a big blow to the State-Media antiterrorism complex.
After that, some TV channels and newspapers started to openly accuse the Network in the defense of Political and Social Rights , which has supported Lesperoglou with all its strength, of being the "political section" of the 17N group, calling it the "Sinn Fein" or "Batatsuna" of Greece. Ioanna Kurtovik, member of the Network and lawyer of the so-called sub-leader of the 17N group, has been brutally and ruthlessly attacked by the Media in every way. They even implied that she was having a sexual affair with her client.. Other progressive people were also attacked in the same personal manner.

Now, in the climax of the media attack - the real terror attack - everyone that speaks in the defense of civil liberties and political expression in Greece is accused of being a terrorist. This is also the case with Indymedia Athens, which some journalists call the "site of the terrorists" and demand from the police to shut us down. Through displaying certain comments and posts from the newswire in their news shows, the say that we promote violence against journalists. Their latest "discovery" were photos of an action where people were throwing ..yogurt on portraits of the worse "journalists" of greek tv. They portray humorous photomontages as death threats against journalists. They even search for hidden comments, which are threatening for journalists, that we hide in 5', and present them as the "main theme of discussion in Indymedia today".

But they won't put us down. Yesterday more than 2500 people took part in an angry - but peaceful - demonstration against State and Media terrorism. The Media had been cultivating a climate of war for this demo: "There will be blood on the streets!", "Arrest them all!", "The shameful demo", they said! And even when they saw that there was no "blood" , just slogans, the public prosecutor charged "everyone who might be responsible" for shouting these slogans!

A part of Greece is returning to the years of the military dictatorship. But another part is not willing to let that happen. We need the support of people from all over the world, not only for Indymedia Athens, but against the terror that has spread in Greek Society. Not of the same severeness, but of the same origin as in Euskal herria, Guandanamo, in the U.S., in Iraq the following months. In these truly dark days, the only weapon we possess is SOLIDARITY.

I didn't attend the demo in question after all, although I had posted that I intended to do so. Although my collective had not discussed the issue, many comrades wanted to attend - and it is evident why. Our only weapon against such propaganda is to peacefully protest against the terrorism of the state and the media.

As for the solidarity to 17N, there are people, mostly anarchists who condone their actions. There are other people who don't condone their actions but support the prisoners rights (the "Network in the defense of Political and Social Rights" people mentioned above, who are also active in protecting the rights of illegal immigrants and victims of racism).

And there are people like me who believe that while the 17N does not deserve our support, we cannot let the whole case play into the hands of the state and media terrorists (police, journalists, politicians and whatnots). We cannot let the collective concience of our society to be held hostage by this anti-terrorist frenzy. We judge that this "reign of terror" does a much more direct harm than the actions of the 17N could ever do.

As a conclusion, let me remind you of this: In it's 27 years of action, 17N has killed 23 people. In 2001 alone, 188 workers have lost their lives in workplace accidents, 50% more than the previous year. Two years ago 88 people lost their lives in a shipwreck and 3 years ago 100 people died in an earthquake. Most of those deaths would have been prevented if not for the criminal neglect of all safety measures by a few capitalists, a direct result of their thirst for profit. However these people, although they often get charged, they hardly ever get convicted.

Now tell me, which group of murderers is the biggest threat to our society?

[Ned]

Axi, just a small point. But the solution proposed by the communists to even small defects in the system is to destroy the system and substitute rule by the communists. Now doesn't this seem just a bit "extreme?"

[DinoDoc]

And there are people like me who believe that while the 17N does not deserve our support, we cannot let the whole case play into the hands of the state and media terrorists (police, journalists, politicians and whatnots).

You do know that there are better ways to go about that than pledging allegience to al-Qaeda and whatnots, don't you?

[axi]

I can't understant the comments of either Ned or DinoDoc. Please explain further. :hmm:

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by axi


As for the solidarity to 17N, there are people, mostly anarchists who condone their actions. There are other people who don't condone their actions but support the prisoners rights (the "Network in the defense of Political and Social Rights" people mentioned above, who are also active in protecting the rights of illegal immigrants and victims of racism).

I have no problem with people being concerned with the welfare of prisoners. I do have a problem with people who condone the actions of murderers. Given the end result, what is the difference between N17 and Neo-Nazi murderers of immigrants? Or N17 and any 'ordinary' murderer? Slap a 'political' justification on, and suddenly the taking of life is ennobled as a 'political' act. Terrorism is what it has always been, the attempt to use acts of violence to disproportionate effect- lynch mobs in the United States would attempt to socially control large African American communities by hanging or burning and mutilating one or more African American men. Similarly, the Rote Armee Fraktion and the I.R.A. and other groups hoped to achieve a similar end- influence a government or country by murder or maiming of civilians and security forces.

How many civilians did Gandhi have to blow up to achieve Indian independence? How many military attaches did Martin Luther King assassinate?

Anarchy is not terrorism, or support for terrorism- I'm unaware of Emma Goldman lobbing any hand grenades at politicians or setting fire to immigrant hostels:

" I know that in the past every great political and social change, necessitated violence....Yet it is one thing to employ violence in combat as a means of defence. It is quite another thing to make a principle of terrorism, to institutionalise it, to assign it the most vital place in the social struggle. Such terrorism begets counter-revolution and in turn itself becomes counter-revolutionary. "

[axi]

Although I am a marxist, I don't dissagree with you or Emma Goldman. 17N could never bring the Revolution in Greece.

The anarchists are really divided over this (which is quite funny since the 17N are marxists). Not all people have good knowledge of the political theory they adhere to, or adhere to sub-branches which lead them to a diametrically different position. The urban guerilla theory derives from a branch of Marxism related theoretically with Maoism and Guevarism, which are forms of Leninism.