Thread Tools
Old October 5, 2002, 12:48   #1
Inverse Icarus
Emperor
 
Inverse Icarus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: flying too low to the ground
Posts: 4,625
Killing Clone Civs - Discussion
I'm in the apolyton chat right now talking to a few people, and TKG brought up the issue of "clone civs". Civs with the same attributes but different UUs. (Japan, Aztecs, and Celts are all going to be mil/reg IIRC).

The obvious solution (without coding new abilities, duh) would to give each civ 3 abilities.

so, who would you give what?

would you make any major changes (completely tear apart a civ's abilities?
__________________
"I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
- Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card
Inverse Icarus is offline  
Old October 5, 2002, 13:09   #2
WarpStorm
King
 
WarpStorm's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Right down the road
Posts: 2,321
Won't work, this would only give 20 (overpowered, IMHO) combos. There would still be duplicates.
__________________
Seemingly Benign
Download Watercolor Terrain - New Conquests Watercolor Terrain
WarpStorm is offline  
Old October 5, 2002, 13:59   #3
aahz_capone
Alpha Centauri PBEMCivilization III MultiplayerNationStatesApolyton UniversityDiplomacy
Prince
 
aahz_capone's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Hague
Posts: 485
Yup, Warp is right about that. The only real way to solve the problem is to make an entirely new variable, like suceptive (sp?) to goverment forms. Ofcourse then you'd have to make the gov types less simplified.
aahz_capone is offline  
Old October 5, 2002, 14:36   #4
Trifna
King
 
Trifna's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: of anchovies
Posts: 1,478
Well, reality shows that there ARE some civilizations that are close to each others by their strenght. It doesn't stop them to be different civs, they just have common strenghts so it's not THAT bad.
__________________
Go GalCiv, go! Go Society, go!
Trifna is offline  
Old October 5, 2002, 14:41   #5
aahz_capone
Alpha Centauri PBEMCivilization III MultiplayerNationStatesApolyton UniversityDiplomacy
Prince
 
aahz_capone's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Hague
Posts: 485
I don't actually mind the cloning TOO much, as I still have a blast with UU and historically speaking I dig thinking I'm a certain civ while playing. Only technically I see that with 4 traits there could be more combinations.

However, before those of you get too pissed off about cloning just think back to the days of civ 1 and 2 before traits existed and remeber the good times.
aahz_capone is offline  
Old October 5, 2002, 18:48   #6
Zero
PtWDG Glory of WarInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamACDG The Human HiveC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamACDG3 SpartansPtWDG2 Monkey
King
 
Zero's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Halloween town
Posts: 2,969
Quote:
Originally posted by WarpStorm
Won't work, this would only give 20 (overpowered, IMHO) combos. There would still be duplicates.
yeah as opposed to 15 that we have right now... still better.
(1 - 6 numbers representing 6 types of trait)

1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5,1-6
2-3, 2-4, 2-5, 2-6
3-4,3-5, 3-6
4-5, 4-6
5-6
= 15
Reason that the aztec and Japan share same trait is due to this reason. Even if mil/rel wasn't duped, some other trait would have been.

3 trait would provide 5 more than 2 trait:
123, 124, 125, 126
134, 135, 136
145, 146
156

234, 235, 236
245, 246
256

345, 346
356

456
= 20

I personally mod to have 3 trait per civ becaue I can go for commercial, industrious and Religious (and if I wanna go warmongering, put mil instead of ind) all at the same time. Making it 3 will alleviate duping problems bu won't solve it. When 4 trait is used, the number decreases back to 15.

1234, 1235, 1236
1245, 1246
1256
1345, 1346
1356
1456

2345, 2346
2356
2456

3456
=15

If you want my opinion on solution? add newtrait! adding one new trait will give you 6 more possibility with 2 trait combination, since you have 7 types of trait to mix and match now.

If adding new trait is not an option, UU should be drastically different (or placed in different era) so that playing style for cloned civ is as different as possible. For example, both civ with sci/ind trait could be toatally differently played by one nation having a iroquois like UU and other Hoplite UU.
__________________
:-p

Last edited by Zero; October 5, 2002 at 18:56.
Zero is offline  
Old October 6, 2002, 00:30   #7
brianshapiro
Warlord
 
Local Time: 00:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Berkeley
Posts: 158
IF YOU'VE EVER MADE A NEW CIVILIZATION IN THE EDITOR YOU KNOW THERE ARE OTHER ATTRIBUTES/PROPERTIES THAT CAN BE SET FOR A CIVILIZATION BESIDES THE MAIN CIV TYPES; STRATEGIES, PRIORITIES, ETC
brianshapiro is offline  
Old October 6, 2002, 01:21   #8
Zero-Tau
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 09:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally posted by brianshapiro
IF YOU'VE EVER MADE A NEW CIVILIZATION IN THE EDITOR YOU KNOW THERE ARE OTHER ATTRIBUTES/PROPERTIES THAT CAN BE SET FOR A CIVILIZATION BESIDES THE MAIN CIV TYPES; STRATEGIES, PRIORITIES, ETC
Please, turn off Caps Lock. To answer your suggestion: Yes, but that makes no difference to a human with that civ.
Zero-Tau is offline  
Old October 6, 2002, 08:52   #9
player1
Emperor
 
player1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Posts: 3,218
Quote:
Please, turn off Caps Lock. To answer your suggestion: Yes, but that makes no difference to a human with that civ.
Of course it makes difference.
You have a different UU.

And UUs are very important stretegicly.
player1 is offline  
Old October 6, 2002, 15:39   #10
Zero-Tau
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 09:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally posted by player1


Of course it makes difference.
You have a different UU.

And UUs are very important stretegicly.
I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about brianshapiro's suggestion of changing strategies and priorities in the editor. These make no difference to a human with the civ. The UU makes a great difference, of course, I know that.

Back to the original post: I think adding one more ability would be best. That'd give 21 combinations. The extra 3 would have to be clone civs, but you could give them slightly different starting techs - like with Aztecs and Japan right now.

I have no idea what the ability would be, though.
Zero-Tau is offline  
Old October 6, 2002, 15:42   #11
Zero
PtWDG Glory of WarInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamACDG The Human HiveC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamACDG3 SpartansPtWDG2 Monkey
King
 
Zero's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Halloween town
Posts: 2,969
21? me and warpstorm said 20, and I specifically laid out the 20 combinations.. how did you get one extra combo?
__________________
:-p
Zero is offline  
Old October 6, 2002, 16:04   #12
Zero-Tau
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 09:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally posted by Calc II
21? me and warpstorm said 20, and I specifically laid out the 20 combinations.. how did you get one extra combo?
Mil/Rel, Mil/Com, Mil/Ex, Mil/Ind, Mil/Sci (that's 5), Mil/New, Rel/Com, Rel/Ex, Rel/Ind, Rel/Sci (10), Rel/New, Com/Ex, Com/Ind, Com/Sci, Com/New (15), Ex/Ind, Ex/Sci, Ex/New, Ind/Sci, Ind/New (20), Sci/New.

That's 21.
Zero-Tau is offline  
Old October 6, 2002, 18:41   #13
WarpStorm
King
 
WarpStorm's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Right down the road
Posts: 2,321
Yes, the number of combinations of 7 objects taken 2 at a time is 21. An even better solution would be to add 2 traits. Then you could get 28 unique combos.
__________________
Seemingly Benign
Download Watercolor Terrain - New Conquests Watercolor Terrain
WarpStorm is offline  
Old October 6, 2002, 19:28   #14
aahz_capone
Alpha Centauri PBEMCivilization III MultiplayerNationStatesApolyton UniversityDiplomacy
Prince
 
aahz_capone's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Hague
Posts: 485
Like what kind of new traits would you have in mind then?

I can only think of agricultural (but that would maybe mess up the game's balance in the beginning).
aahz_capone is offline  
Old October 7, 2002, 03:09   #15
Tiberius
PtWDG LegolandCivilization III PBEMInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization IV CreatorsC4DG Sarantium
Emperor
 
Tiberius's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Europe
Posts: 4,496
Quote:
Originally posted by aahz_capone
Like what kind of new traits would you have in mind then?
1. Agricultural
+1 food (in the city, after size x)
cheaper granary, aqueduct, hospital

2. Maritime
+1 movement on sea
cheaper harbors
(Some problems could occur on Pangaeea ... )

3. Nationalistic
better chances to succeed in espionage missions
more resistant to cultural assimilation (less chances for cities to defect/flip from you and more resistors if your cities are conquered)
less war weariness
better trade/diplomatic deals
(Example from the current civs: France; or otherwise: Hebrews, Serbs, Irish, etc)
__________________
"The only way to avoid being miserable is not to have enough leisure to wonder whether you are happy or not. "
--George Bernard Shaw
A fast word about oral contraception. I asked a girl to go to bed with me and she said "no".
--Woody Allen
Tiberius is offline  
Old October 7, 2002, 06:22   #16
aahz_capone
Alpha Centauri PBEMCivilization III MultiplayerNationStatesApolyton UniversityDiplomacy
Prince
 
aahz_capone's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Hague
Posts: 485
These are good ideas tiberius, but a problem with maritime is that it kills the wonders which give +1 movement on sea. if a marotime got those wonders, well a terime could go faster then a destroyer: very wierd.

and as for nationalistic, I like the idea, but it shouldn't have better trade/diplomacy with other countries but slightly worse unless those countries are nationalistic too. And it should be called something else, because nationalism is a science that can be discovered. How about calling it patriotism or something?
aahz_capone is offline  
Old October 7, 2002, 09:27   #17
Tiberius
PtWDG LegolandCivilization III PBEMInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization IV CreatorsC4DG Sarantium
Emperor
 
Tiberius's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Europe
Posts: 4,496
Patriotism? Not bad.

Why should they have worse results from diplomacy? I mean, such civs are usually more 'stubborn' when it comes to protecting their national interest.
__________________
"The only way to avoid being miserable is not to have enough leisure to wonder whether you are happy or not. "
--George Bernard Shaw
A fast word about oral contraception. I asked a girl to go to bed with me and she said "no".
--Woody Allen
Tiberius is offline  
Old October 7, 2002, 12:34   #18
aahz_capone
Alpha Centauri PBEMCivilization III MultiplayerNationStatesApolyton UniversityDiplomacy
Prince
 
aahz_capone's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Hague
Posts: 485
Well, Tiberius, the way I figure it is that ultra-nationalistic birds of a feather flock together, like Mussolini's Italy, Hitler's Germany and Franco's Spain. However other more 'moderate' nations shun them finding they're selfrightousness arrogent and demeaning. The effect is seen even today: when modern nations like France or USA or Israel get all uppity with their own superiority, other countries aren't as welcoming to their retoric.
aahz_capone is offline  
Old October 7, 2002, 15:04   #19
Zero-Tau
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 09:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally posted by WarpStorm
An even better solution would be to add 2 traits. Then you could get 28 unique combos.
Yep, but then you can't pick any combination you want. Right now you can.

And I just got another idea. Instead of adding a new ability, one might allow a civ to have the same ability twice. This would give all the usual effects (once; double industrious will not make your workers four times as fast) plus something extra. I was thinking something like this:

Double commercial: All citizens produce 1 gold, regardless of their function. Resistors aren't counted. Tax collectors produce a total of 2 gold.

Double industrious: All squares, including water, that produce no shields now produce 1. This may be further enhanced by government bonuses. (These civs can't build Offshore Platforms, because they already get production from water squares.)

Double scientific: All optional techs cost half their normal price to research. (If you buy them from another civ you'll have to pay full price.)

Double expansionist: Workers and settlers have movement 2. Scouts have movement 2, treat all terrain as roads. Explorers have movement 3, treat all terrain as roads.

Double religious: Enemy cities with your citizens have double chance to flip to you. Own cities with your citizens (so not including just captured cities) have half chance to flip to another civ.

Double militaristic: All units may attack multiple times in the same turn.

Well, what do you all think?
Zero-Tau is offline  
Old October 8, 2002, 01:44   #20
Tiberius
PtWDG LegolandCivilization III PBEMInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization IV CreatorsC4DG Sarantium
Emperor
 
Tiberius's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Europe
Posts: 4,496
Zero-Tau

Why couldn't you pick any combination you want to?

For the double-thing: Your idea could make sense in the game's terms, but what would be the real life equivalence? Which country on Earth is double-industrious? It would be also very, very difficult to obtain a good gamepaly balance with those civs in.


aahz_capone

I can accept that. Either way, the nationalistic/patriotic (in another thread somebody suggested charismatic ), could be a good trait.
__________________
"The only way to avoid being miserable is not to have enough leisure to wonder whether you are happy or not. "
--George Bernard Shaw
A fast word about oral contraception. I asked a girl to go to bed with me and she said "no".
--Woody Allen
Tiberius is offline  
Old October 8, 2002, 06:47   #21
Mr. President
MacSpanish CiversNationStatesNever Ending StoriesCivilization II Democracy Game: ExodusApolyton Storywriters' GuildACDG Planet University of Technology
Emperor
 
Mr. President's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: You can be me when I'm gone
Posts: 3,640
Y'know what the real problem is? Too many civilizations.
__________________
Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.
Mr. President is offline  
Old October 8, 2002, 07:27   #22
aahz_capone
Alpha Centauri PBEMCivilization III MultiplayerNationStatesApolyton UniversityDiplomacy
Prince
 
aahz_capone's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Hague
Posts: 485



Nooooo!!!!!!

One can never have too many civs! Ther must be millions!



And one day, I will RULE THEM ALL!!!!


MUH HU HA HA HA HA HAHAAAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!
aahz_capone is offline  
Old October 8, 2002, 10:40   #23
Zero-Tau
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 09:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
Why couldn't you pick any combination you want to?
Well, there's 28 combinations and only 24 civs. But if someone could come up with 4 more civs, adding 2 traits would be great.

Quote:
For the double-thing: Your idea could make sense in the game's terms, but what would be the real life equivalence? Which country on Earth is double-industrious? It would be also very, very difficult to obtain a good gamepaly balance with those civs in.
There isn't really any real life equivalent. I was just thinking game terms. Besides, I'd prefer for new traits to be added. As for the gameplay, yes, balance would be very difficult. I thought a bit about this myself, and my original suggestion will almost certainly lead to overpowered civs.

Quote:
aahz_capone

I can accept that. Either way, the nationalistic/patriotic (in another thread somebody suggested charismatic ), could be a good trait.
I second that! But there's a bit of trouble with capone's suggestion: "Better deals" will mean nothing in MP, and "reduced war weariness" will only be useful under some governments. The two other abilities are nice, though. Maybe add "Immune to propaganda", as with religious.
Zero-Tau is offline  
Old October 8, 2002, 17:10   #24
Destroyer
Prince
 
Destroyer's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Hobbits Armpit
Posts: 311
I think you are missing the point.

I think it is nice to play with your own nationality.

Anyway, I think all of your ideas could apply to the English, and so we would end up being a super-civ.
__________________
The strength and ferocity of a rhinoceros... The speed and agility of a jungle cat... the intelligence of a garden snail.
Destroyer is offline  
Old October 8, 2002, 17:19   #25
aahz_capone
Alpha Centauri PBEMCivilization III MultiplayerNationStatesApolyton UniversityDiplomacy
Prince
 
aahz_capone's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Hague
Posts: 485
Ok, destroyer has a point, playing your own nationality (and for that matter acting like it) is way fun.

However, even though all civs share some bit of patriotism, or at one point were industrial or militant, some civs just more than other for longer periods of time, which is why engalnd isn't a super civ. I mean, if it was, it would have gotten to alpha centauri by now...

aahz_capone is offline  
Old October 8, 2002, 17:55   #26
Destroyer
Prince
 
Destroyer's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Hobbits Armpit
Posts: 311
Hey, we are too busy pushing through the US foreign policy and appologising to all our old colonies for bringing medicine, education, irrigation, roads, laws (or was that the Romans) and great big guns,as well as bringing the rest of the world a common language, science, literature, music, television, football, the BBC, baddies in films and decent packets of crisps.
__________________
The strength and ferocity of a rhinoceros... The speed and agility of a jungle cat... the intelligence of a garden snail.
Destroyer is offline  
Old October 8, 2002, 21:53   #27
Vlad Antlerkov
Civilization III Democracy Game
King
 
Vlad Antlerkov's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Toasty!
Posts: 2,230
I like the idea of a civ having the same trait doubled up. This would result in 21 combinations.

Alternatively, keep two traits-- but have one be a primary trait, the other a secondary trait. (Example: Mil/Sci would be different from Sci/Mil.) Whether the primary trait would be the current version powered up (like Zero-Tau's double-traits) or the secondary trait be weakened from the current version, I don't know. Anyway, you'd get 30 combinations, more than enough for 24 civs.

Or varying degrees of traits (including negative versions-- i.e. negative Industrious would slow down worker rate, negative Commercial would increase corruption, etc.).

/me falls asleep on keyboard
Vlad Antlerkov is offline  
Old October 9, 2002, 03:09   #28
aahz_capone
Alpha Centauri PBEMCivilization III MultiplayerNationStatesApolyton UniversityDiplomacy
Prince
 
aahz_capone's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Hague
Posts: 485
Antlerkov has a good idea, positive and negative traits and primary/secondary traits could be put together in a system of points, like +2 for economy and industry, -1 for commercial etc. per civ.... Then that could be fixed to the favourite form of gov for that civ (like communism for Russia, democracy for ammerica) to give extra benifits and...

no wait...

OMG!! That's SMAC!!

AAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!
aahz_capone is offline  
Old October 9, 2002, 16:08   #29
Zero-Tau
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 09:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 78
I think that when designing this system we should try to keep things as simple as possible. The best solution, IMO, would be to simply add one or two new traits. The second best would be Vlad's suggestion of having a primary/secondary attribute, or adding the possibility of double-traits. Anything beyond that and things start to get a bit too complicated.
Zero-Tau is offline  
Old October 9, 2002, 19:38   #30
Destroyer
Prince
 
Destroyer's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Hobbits Armpit
Posts: 311
Quote:
Originally posted by Zero-Tau
I think that when designing this system we should try to keep things as simple as possible.
Noooooooooooo! No more dumbing down. I want a million cominations that I will never fully understand. Keeps it fresh.

SMAC had it right though. With a bit of tweeking to make it relevant, it could have ben used in civ - just like the deplomacy ( oh Ill just stop now or Ill be here all day)
__________________
The strength and ferocity of a rhinoceros... The speed and agility of a jungle cat... the intelligence of a garden snail.
Destroyer is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:59.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team