War Academy - Persia defeated, Aztec-American War, what next?

[joncnunn]

I agree that getting the Russians involved against the French is a good idea.

We should also think about how to keep Hole in the Wall from falling to the French during that war as well.

[Meshelic]

Good idea on the Russian intervention idea, I think we can use the Russians to some extent in the future that will greatly benefit us, since their neighbor Rome is probably our real competition for Pax Apolytonia

ROBBERB - The idea as you know was to annex a large portion of France (if not all of it) while at the same time paying attention to homeland building. I think that in this scenerio both the DIA and Hawks can be satisfied.

AGGIE - I thought it was great at the beginning of this thread : RubyMaser called out to eat drink and be merry and then next post was a very well done strategic outline for a war campaign. Had to laugh at the timing on that one.

[joncnunn]

The Romans usally go into a spiral of decay starting about now in my games that ends with them being annexed by the closest neighbor(s).

I think that Germany is the bigest competion to Pax Apolyontia because they are soon going to pick the weakest oppoent to them and attack them. (Most likely the English or Aztecs if we acquire Gunpodwer upgrade our Pike Men to Musket Men on their border fast enough.)

Watch to see what Germany does.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by joncnunn
The Romans usally go into a spiral of decay starting about now in my games that ends with them being annexed by the closest neighbor(s).

I think that Germany is the bigest competion to Pax Apolyontia because they are soon going to pick the weakest oppoent to them and attack them. (Most likely the English or Aztecs if we acquire Gunpodwer upgrade our Pike Men to Musket Men on their border fast enough.)

Watch to see what Germany does.

If this turns out to be the case, I think we have a strong argument to turning the English or the Aztecs (whichever is attacked) into a client/satellite state for Apolytonia (finally a Great Power, proper ) and feed them the capability the need to at least hold off the German hordes while we build up our forces for the deathblow against Germany (striking from behind with overwhelming force).

If this is done, then the Aztecs and the English would both be somewhat at our mercy due to being next to us and seperated from the rest of the known world. This will make it very hard for either of them to ever even consider attacking us and may easily allow us to progress from them being client states of ours in opposition to the Germans to being dependent trading partners and a source of income.

Ultimately, because of the influence of corruption, it would be worth more to us to allow them their independence while keeping them as dependent trading partners (selling them our luxuries for as extortionary a price as we can get - eventually even selling them techs for similar extortionary prices). Since corruption would be so horrible if we actually conquered them that we'd spend far more money keeping order than we'd gain from them, they're actually worth more to us as cowed and dependent trading partners than as subjects (this as a long-term rather than short-term strategy, of course).

It's really a pity we aren't a commerical civ (I always play commercial) as commercial civs can afford to have larger empires then non-commercial civs because corruption is less restrictive on the far reaches of their empire. But oh well... a commercial civ we are not and that means the maximum profitable size of our empire under the current Civ3 rules is approaching quickly. I strongly recommend we stop expanding at that size and make dependent those we do not conquer.

[GePap]

I would oppose a war to destroy France, as its consequences may greatly overcome any gains: While france is weak, it probably wil be capable of calling other civs against us. The four candidates are the Aztecs, Germans, Romans, Greeks. The Aztecs are the smallest threat, as they lie far away from us generally and are the weakest of the four civs mentioned. The greeks are a significant threat since they have cities that project into our undefended 'gut': though at the same time, the greeks have not shown great martial spirit.
Germany leads in tech, and will continue to do so for the time being. Hopefully they lack saltpeter- if they have it, we wil have significant difficulties with them. Rome is obviously the greatest threat, as they hav an army superior to ours, and superior tech-plus they would be in a postion to attack our forces in the french front itself. If the French were able to simply pul one, or worst, 2 of these enemies against us, the situation would be a significant danger- and we should remember that once any one state comes in, they can create their own alliences vs us.

We are already #1 in the histograph- we already have the most land, some key wonders, and have the potential to be the economic powerhouse- yet we are, and keep falling further and further behind in tech. Up until the Peace treaty with Persia we were at least 5 techs behind the germans. Now we are at best, only 3 behind. Folks, if we maintain this rate, our knights will be facing riflemen before we know it- considering that at least 3 of our neighbors will get nationalism for free.
We need to turn our state into a tech leader- not a state always looking to scrap enough cash to pay exorbitant amounts. War for techs, due to ou tech. backwardness, is already becoming an iffy proposition. We need more trade, more wealth-we need to actually discover things for ourselves! War with france will not help this- and neither will war with anyone else, besies a weak and soon to be dead (by our hands or others) America.

[Meshelic]

Originally posted by Arnelos

turning the English or the Aztecs (whichever is attacked) into a client/satellite state for Apolytonia (finally a Great Power, proper ) and feed them the capability the need to at least hold off the German hordes while we build up our forces for the deathblow against Germany (striking from behind with overwhelming force).

What should happen to us supposing either the Aztecs or the English beef up their industrial and military might after we've turned them into a satellite states? Worrying about a supposed 'ally' who might just decide to align themselves with another nation who is against us doesn't sound very appealing.

However, a good challenge for the Foreign Ministry...

[Meshelic]

I would only worry about that because generally the AI likes to coalition itself with the other civz to take you down. We all know a multiple front war is not an option for us....well, not NOW anyways....

[Meshelic]

It seems that the consensus is that with the upcoming elections, as well as the soon to be change to Republic (although who knows when this will happen), as well as the onset of the GA soon, that war with France may or may not be the best idea, at least for the time being. After rereading many of the threads, it seems that the conversations have leaned more towards these options:

1.) Quick annexation of eastern French provinces then sue for peace. Through this we weaken the French Army again and make sure it is no position to launch an offensive in near future....
2.) Wait until we have chivalry before we begin an assault and in the meantime build up our cultural improvements.

I call for a polling soon to decide on an appropriate form of action

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Meshelic
1.) Quick annexation of eastern French provinces then sue for peace. Through this we weaken the French Army again and make sure it is no position to launch an offensive in near future....
2.) Wait until we have chivalry before we begin an assault and in the meantime build up our cultural improvements.

I call for a polling soon to decide on an appropriate form of action

I would agree those are the two main options people have coalesced around, though the second argument says we should wait for Cavalry rather than Chivalry .

There is a third option some have argued for and it would only be fair to include it in such a poll for those who would wish to vote for it: Do not go to war with France at all, largely because we have no pressing need for it.

All three have supporters (I happen to be mostly in favor of #2, though I haven't really decided for sure), so they are all valid options for such a poll.

[Donegeal]

Originally posted by Meshelic
2.) Wait until we have chivalry before we begin an assault and in the meantime build up our cultural improvements.

Yea! We already have Chivalry! Kill! Whack all other civs! Destroy! What? you mean he meant Cavalry? Oh...

[Donegeal]

I am against a war to destroy France.

First, why I wouldn't "destroy" anyone:
Little wimpy civs are good to sell tech to for L or Lpt. Also if you destroy a civ, you can't sue them for anything when you want peace.

Second, why not France:
Although France is weak and prime for the taking, it would increase the number of tiles we have to defend, and increase the number of civs we would have to defend against. In short, it would greatly increase our border.

If we go to war (not the quick "whacking" types I keep refering to), I would say we go after England. Since we have driven the Persians from our lands, we eliminated our eastern border. We drove straight to the ocean. Let us push up from the Persian Lowlands and continue along the coast. We gain land but do not increase our border.
Go along the coast then start attacking the German and Aztecs in a big pust across the northern central part of Abananaba. Continue pushing until we take the Ivory Coast of Greece.
From here we push south through france and into Abananaba Minor.
Our defendable border never increases (or only slightly does so).

"The Great Loop of Abananaba" stragety.

[Meshelic]

Woah it must have been all this Macross City wine I just drank at my nomination party....*hiccup*

[Torkkeli]

Btw has any one noticed the Aztec army near Washington (S,SSE)?

I think this proves that the Aztec have a strong army and should be dealt with this in mind.
They are most certainly able to take us down, until we build enough defensive forces.

[Robber Baron]

The more I ponder the map, the stronger my conviction grows that we need to build, to brake expansion, to buttress and improve our empire before undertaking any further wars. In particular, we need to either relocate our capital or build a forbidden palace -- preferably both. Until we have realigned ourselves along more central lines, we are VERY vulnerable to attack, and stagnating culturally.
So while I support the idea of swooping in and taking whatever remnants of America survive by the time our knights reach the front, I strongly oppose war against the French at this time.

[GhengisFarb™]

In the war w/ America I believe we should use our elite units not the WCs to attack in the hopes we can get a GL which could be used for a Palace/FP or wonder.

[joncnunn]

The French war can't be for 17 more turns at least because we don't want a rep hit.

By then, War Werriousness won't be a problem as long as the annexation is quick.

On the keep France as a client state to sell techs to, they don't have enough money to even give us a decent price on Music Theory. Their empire is too small for this. If we don't take France, either the Romans will soon while Legionaries aren't too dated or else the Russians will latter.

If the western set of Palace - Forbidden Palace wins, we will need to Annex France evenually to protect the western most city's Palace / Forbidden Palace.

If the eastern set of Palace - Forbidden Palace wins, we will need to Annex England to protect the eastern most city's Palace / Forbidden Palace.

The Roman army is full of Legionaries that are rapidally becoming out-dated as knowledge of Gunpowder spreads and can't be upgraded. The Russians are the up and coming power on that section of the map, and on the other side the Germans are.

Greece is an important nation, but I have never known the Greeks to declare war on their own in Civ III.

[GePap]

Anything that delays the buildup of Apolyton is basically against our most important needs. If we get gunpowder, and discover we have no saltpeter, but the French do, then a limited war to capture that would be called for. Wars simply for further territorial aggrandizement no longer make sense, and as i have said before, wars for techs, when we are so far behnd, make little sense.

We need our own size 12 cities, pumping out lytons and technologies, not size 8 or 7 cities pumping out knights in 6 turns or so to wage another war.... We are the largest power in the world, the island of Uber is still mostly fallow and open to our colonists, so what do we need french lands for? Glory wil come from our scientiests and merhcats being the most admired in the world, not from endless wars that stiffle our economic growth. If we continue this path- one day a wave of Roman and German cavalry will pounce on our musketmen (hoping we ge them), and were will we be then?

[GhengisFarb™]

Be warned, by agents have informed me that the peace we made with Persia was only made with Darius II, the son of the former Persian Emperor whom Aggie nailed to a spike at Antioch and then lightly sprinkled the writhing body with sesame seeds to encourage wandering birds to.......

I digress, apparently Persia has fractured into three MIGHTY kingdoms they refer to as sultanates, each one led by one of Darius' three surviving sons. Rumors indicate that while we made peace with Darius II the other two may still be at war with us and that they are attempting to seek allies from beyond the ocean (whatever that means). So be ever vigilant Apolytonians.

[E_T]

[laying out a Banana Tarot deck spread]
Persia will be likely absorbed by the Aztecs by the end of Term V.
The Aztecs or English will make first contact with the Lost Civs by Midterm Term V.
The Germans will attack us around Midterm Term V.
[/Tarot]

E_T

[joncnunn]

Our best chance to prevent Germany from attacking us is to buy Gun Powder quickly, get access to Saltpeter and upgrade the northern border defenses to Musket Men.

Whichever empire between Aztecs, English, and us the Germans think is the weakest will be attacked.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by E_T
[laying out a Banana Tarot deck spread]
Persia will be likely absorbed by the Aztecs by the end of Term V.
The Aztecs or English will make first contact with the Lost Civs by Midterm Term V.
The Germans will attack us around Midterm Term V.
[/Tarot]

E_T

Oh oh, I feel another betting thread coming on. I think Persia or Greece has a good shot at being the first to contact the Lost Civs and our civilization appears to be afraid of the water.

[joncnunn]

Aztecs are likely to attack the Persians after America is gone as soon as their forces are redeployed.

Persia might be able to bring England or Germany into that war.

[Shiber]

Let's hope this happens.
Hey, maybe we could buy something big from Persia or give them a nice sum of money some other way just after the Aztecs declare war on them so they can bring allies to the war.
Such a war will benefit us greatly, since the parties involved will spend resources on military units that will die in the battlefield and their production capabilities will suffer from War Weariness. We should also hope for a situation in which one of Persia's allies signs a peace treaty with the Aztecs before the 20 turns period and thus takes a rep hit - the less rep the AIs have, the less they trade with each other and the less they benefit from trade.

[joncnunn]

My worst fear is actually this:

1. Aztec declares war on Persia.

2. Persia gets Germany to join the war against the Aztecs.

3. Before the German forces can get into position, Aztec takes the Sultanate of Hamadan.

4. Germany then gets the upper hand and annexes the southern 1/3rd to 1/2th of Aztec cities before war werrious sets in and a cease fire is reached. (Including the Sultantate of Hamadan and any Aztec ocupplied American city that hasn't yet flipped to us.)

5. But even while the Aztecs are being driven back from there from the Germans, they take over the Sultanates of Sidon and Sardas which elimates the Persians from the game.

Some time later the Germany - Aztec war restarts resulting in the annexation of the rest of the Aztecs to Germany.

[Aro]

About Montezuma... He has an army (I hate when the AI has an army and I don't...). Boston will fall in few turns.
In the army: Three horsemen, 1 Elite. 2 vets. The stack behind the army has archers and a spear.

[Shiber]

Boston will most likely fall in exactly 2 turns (after 500 AD). This gives us enough time to bring an additional knight to the vicinity of Boston, declare war in 500 AD and attack with 4 WCs and one knight.
Which reminds me: why don't we switch to Republic this turn? If we don't do it now, we'll have to postpone the switch in 20 turns since a government switch during a GA and the anarchy that follows is a terrible waste.

[Meshelic]

We are losing valuable time if we don't want the Aztecs to annex America before we can at least snatch a few cities up from under their noses.

[GhengisFarb™]

Screw time, their @#$@# Americans our 6 year old boys could slaughter their finest wariors. Take them NOW!

N O W !

[joncnunn]

Call the revolution to Republic this turn right after new worker orders given.

[Shiber]

And after the rushes we're planning for this turn (some courthouses and marketplaces) are done.