VP campaign thread

[UnOrthOdOx]

Again, no one is starting these... Come on candidates! Make some threads.




Arnelos.

What do you see as the role of the VP, and how do you plan to accomplish those tasks?


(Yes, you are the only candidate...for now...there are a few days left, you know)

[Sean]

With a candidate as strong as Arnelos, who would be silly enough to bother standing against him?

[Donegeal]

[RP]

Vote The Great Banana! We Cannot have the leader of the rebels in such a high position!

[end]

[Sean]

Actually, a vote that way won't stop his election.

Which is good, as he is a fine candidate.

[Donegeal]

I know, I'm even planning to vote for him, it was just RP.

[RP]

Long Live the King! Save the Monarchy!

[end]

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Sean
With a candidate as strong as Arnelos, who would be silly enough to bother standing against him?

I could think of one or two, especially if he doesn't start answering questions...

[Arnelos]

Hey, I'm back Been really busy over the previous 24 hours...

Lemme think on a detailed answer to Unortho's question and I'll post it in this thread probably by this evening (I'm just getting up to read the paper at the moment, I'll be back to do long posts this evening )

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx


I could think of one or two, especially if he doesn't start answering questions...

I REALLY BADLY hope that those candidates put their names forward. We would have the very bestest elections ever!

[Arnelos]

Grr... due to current events in the area I live in, plans have changed for the day (outdoor events keep getting cancelled - I hope this idiotic serial killer gets caught sometime soon...)

So, anyways... I used a little of my extra time this morning to go look up a bunch of extremely ancient VP campaign threads and other old CoL stuff about the VP.

A summary I was writing as I went along follows:


-----------------

Original post by MrWhereItsAt about the duties of VP (as polled for the original CoL back in June):
- posts nomination threads
- posts election polls
- becomes minister if that minster is absent 24 hours
- becomes prez in event of abdication - holds position until next elections

TERM 1 ELECTION:

Space05us ran on:
- Experience in Civ2 demo game
- online at least once per day
- running against someone with only 1 post
- ran as a "pragmatist" rather than as a dedicated pacifist or dedicated hawk

Election Results (June 11 - June 16):
Space05us: 48 (78.69%)
Nuclear Master: 13 (21.31%)

TERM 1 REPLACEMENT ELECTION:

Timeline (DIA):
- VP's main job is to be primed and ready to take over should anything happen to the President
- VP should be active, present for turnchats when possible, interested in the game and involved
- Would help Prez and other ministers on various projects or when needed
- The VP should, as with any gov't official, put aside partisanship while performing official duties

Vlad Antlerkov (UFC):
- France is a threat to us, I would like to ensure that we destroy France and expand in that direction

Others:
- WhereItsAt chimed in to argue that the VP should serve as something of "the people's spokesperson" in the gov't
- Timeline came to argue that the VP should not use the post (which largely figure-head) to push a particular policy, such as war with France (which is the issue Vlad Antlerkov was running on)

Election Results (June 24 - June 29):
Timeline (DIA): 35 (58.33%)
Vlad Antlerkov (UFC): 25 (41.67%)

TERM 2 ELECTION:

Timeline (DIA):
- ran on same platform as Term 1 special race
- re-iterated argument that VP's main job is just to be ready in the event the president resigns or goes missing
- responded to Apoc's argument that the VP should not be in a party by asking why it's then ok for the Prez to be from a party
- Argued that the DIA is based upon "being cool-headed" and reasonable/practicable. Worries that candidates of the party would use their positions to go declare war on opposing civs because they felt like it were not a concern with the DIA as they were with the UFC.

Apocalypse (Independent):
- Apoc argued that the VP should not be a member of a political party
- The VP should fill in missing minister positions or Prez as needed
- People should vote person before party
- If VP is from a party and fills in for someone of another party, this could change policy

Others:
- several posters pointed out that VP is largely just figure-head

The race:
The race got mildly ugly when Apoc quoted a joke/roleplay post by Timeline and used it as an example of Timeline's partisanship. An argument ensued about the roleplay nature of the post and even over the mispelling of words in posts by either candidate...

Election Results (July 12 - July 17):
Timeline (DIA): 78 (73.58%)
Apocalypse (Independent): 28 (26.42%)

TERM 3 ELECTION:

UnOrthOdOx:
- "organize" the gov't
- create a directory thread
- wants to help with pre-poll discussions and setting up official polls
- If he ran a turnchat, he would be implementing orders of the ministers, not creating policy in the name of his party
- does not want to make radical changes or make "tons of amendments"

Election Results (August 13 - August 18):
UnOrthOdOx: 55 (90.16%)
Banana (abstain): 6 (9.84%)

TERM 4 ELECTION:

Apocalypse:
- Apoc admitted he could not keep up organization of Unortho (which went beyond the duties of the office, to Unortho's credit), but would certainly be available to replace the Prez if needed
- Apoc answered Unortho's question by saying he had no specific plans on organization, but would react to chaos as it appeared

Others:
- Ninot asked two questions: (1) could he keep up organization, (2) could he be available to replace the Prez
- Unortho asked if he had ANY plans for organization

Election Results (September 12 - September 17):
Apocalypse: 45 (86.54%)
The Big Banana (abstain): 7 (13.46%)

-----------------------

Current CoL listing for the Vice President:

The right hand of the President; he may assist the president in any way currently needed (holding polls, consulting ministers, distributing the save files, etc). In the event the President is unable to play his turn, the Vice-president shall play the turn instead.

-----------------------

So now I'm thinking about the history of the VP position and how it might evolve under my own leadership. Give me some time to think about that and other related issues and then I'll post with some detailed thoughts on those issues.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx


I could think of one or two, especially if he doesn't start answering questions...

Which begs the question... what questions? I have not yet been asked any questions in this thread other than the extremely vague one in the title post... (one I'm thinking about... which is why I did the research on the history of the position)

However, I went ahead and looked up the history of questions asked of VP candidates since no-one other than Unortho has bothered to ask me one yet

THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED WHEN ARNELOS REALIZED HE IS GOING BLIND (I purchased reading glasses last week... just haven't started wearing them )

[UnOrthOdOx]

I asked what YOU thought the job of the VP SHOULD be, and how you plan to accomplish it...I have follow ups, do you want them all at the same time?

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I asked what YOU thought the job of the VP SHOULD be, and how you plan to accomplish it...I have follow ups, do you want them all at the same time?

Yes, please... I'll answer them in a super-post

[Arnelos]

The VP campaign thread now has more posts in it than even the City Planner campaign thread

[MrWhereItsAt]

OK, here's one...

What do you regard as your NUMBER ONE priority job as VP? This need not be some new amendment (although it could be), but may be something already prescribed in the Constitution, or even something not there that you think would just be helpful.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
OK, here's one...

What do you regard as your NUMBER ONE priority job as VP? This need not be some new amendment (although it could be), but may be something already prescribed in the Constitution, or even something not there that you think would just be helpful.

I don't need to think long and hard about that one... and I agree with the history of candidates for the position on the answer:

The number one responsibility of the VP is to be generally active and knowledgable on aspects of the game, that they can be always prepared to take on the reponsibilities of president should that position go vacant at any time.

In order to remain active and knowledgable, it would only be expected that the VP would continue to remain active as they did before they were VP (posting in threads, starting polls where appropriate, and staying up-to-date on events... attending turnchats, etc.). This is precisely the types of activities I would think are expected of an active VP who is doing what they can to be prepared.

That said, I am thinking about various other things I'd like to do which might outside the CoL-perscribed duties for the VP, but I'll post on that stuff in more detail probably later today (right now, I need to go get FOOD and then write an article for Unortho ).

[UnOrthOdOx]

Having just announced my candidacy, allow me to begin.

The #1 job of the VP, IMO, should be to assure the smooth operation of the Forum. The President is responsible for playing the game, and from experience, that playing takes allot of time. The VP should do his/her best to attend to the day to day running of the forum, and make the playing of the game as easy as possible for the President.

Re: my own question on the role of the VP and my plans to accomplish those tasks.

This term, I make no illusions that I can be as active as I was during my last run. I will be around as much as I am currently, if not a bit more. I will assure that the directory does not fall by the wayside. I would prefer if I could deligate responsibility for that to either one person in charge of it, or to charge Ministers for their own respective section. However, if need be, I am perfectly capable of maintaining the directory on my own.

That being said, we are still in need of some organization around the forum. I hope to improve and set a standard for the way the orders thread is maintained. Continuing the Compilation of the Minister's orders, and attending to issues that result within.

I intend to perfect and pass the cash rushing amendment. Currently there is no one in charge of our cash beyond the use of it for trades. We need to have someone with the final say to coordinate and attend to our budget.

I would set goals to:

Get the CoL rewritten to the agreed upon Compromise:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=56787
to assure that the CoL can be easily read and understood.

Write and/or Compile a FAQ for the new people who continue to stream into the Demo Game. Including such things as links to the parties, their platforms, the CoL, Directory, lates report, and whatever else comes up.

Have fun with the position. Last term, I took things too seriously, and while maintaining a decent pace in game, and decent organization, I also suffered Migraines. I need to relax a bit and have fun with it.

Attend all weekend chats, and weekday chats if time allows. I work during most weekday chats, but could attend weekend ones.

Hold at least one chat. I want to have a go at one, just to see how they feel.

Assist the Con Con in any way possible. I will have an open line of communication and assist them in any way possible. Hopefully setting things up so that the new Constitution can be ready by next term.

[Arnelos]

Well, allow to begin by saying that having an opponent such as UnOrthOdOx makes this race a very interesting one. We are both very active in various areas of the boards, including sparking discussions, participating in discussions, being present at turnchats, and providing information to citizens. It will be admittedly a difficult task for voters to pick between us. I'll start by pointing out my own priorities the upcoming term and then comment on what I believe are the relevant contrasts between UnOrthOdOx and myself concerning the Vice Presidential position.

My priorities for the term:

In my opinion, the creation of the "pr0phet" or "moderator" position under OPD will make the informal role of the Vice President in organizing and "managing" the boards extinct. adaMada already does the directory job that UnOrthOdOx apparently performed when he was last Vice President and recent discussion points to that adaMada will continue that and OPD, as the new pr0phet, will be the one under whom forums organization and management will take place.

In my opinion, this is only proper, as this relieves the Vice President of this responsibility (one which has been fulfilled by adaMada rather than Apocalypse in the current term anyhow) and allows him to concentrate on doing other aspects of what the Vice President can do with their position. Namely, I believe the most important of those are:

1. Being present at turnchats whenever possible and being available to host his own turnchats, should the President be unable or unwilling.

2. Serving as an advisor to the President and acting in a support role for each of the other ministers. Having an analytical talent would especially help with this within the cabinet.

3. Continuing to participate in forums discussion, with special attention toward starting threads on topics which he feels need public discussion, starting polls on issues which he identifies as ones in which the government needs guidance, and providing feedback to the President and various ministers.

4. Personally, I feel that I would like to, whether I am Vice President (a role with very limited official duties) or not, I would become involved in the work of the constitutional reform once the Con Con has finally made its public report on their proposals to the public. In my opinion, the suggestion by Con Con members that the Senate will become more important in the future is precisely the direction I'd like to see us move in and one I'd be more than willing to have the VP role evolve to help with. I do have very considerable experience with charter/constitution/code revision in several RL organizations I've been in over the past 8 years and my particular area of continued interest has been increasing involvement in decision-making processes by the general membership of the various RL organizations in which I have held leadership roles.

This, however, brings me the point with which I started this post. The voter is likely to be confused about which of us to support because our level of activity on the boards is mutually very high and the number of things we do is mutually impressive. The most important point to make then, is that the vast majority of what both UnOrthOdOx and I do on the boards is largely irrelvant to the Vice President position. The reason it is irrelevant to our candidacies and the race as a whole is that it is stuff the voting public can reasonably assume that we would each do whether either of us become Vice President or not.

This understandably begs the question of what is relevant to the race for Vice President and what are the relevant differences between UnOrthOdOx and myself. Although this race is only beginning and the voter will have to watch the race as it evolves to determine much of the answer to this question, I can point out a few things (at least from my obviously biased perspective) that the voter may find to be relevant, not all of them good for me:

1. UnOrthOdOx has been around longer than I have. Whether this is actually relevant to whether someone is VP (given that VP is a position typically taken by people relatively new or brand new to public office in Apolytonia) can be decided by the voter.

2. Although of extremely limited relevance (if any) to the position, I have a strong analytical talent and do not play by either a "builder" or a "warrior" strategy, but rather a hybrid startegy which I find to be particularly effective against the AI of Civ3. I don't know how UnOrthOdOx plays the game, so I don't know how much of a difference this really is, but I know he has made claims to being more of a "warrior" player and is a member of the Hawk party. That said, as I warned, this is an almost (if not entirely) irrelevant difference to the position. The President, if either of us were forced to take on that role, does not create policy, but rather implements the policy of the various ministers and of the public.

3. I have RL experience as a largely powerless executive . I've been there before, as frustrating as it sometimes can be, as a largely powerless chief executive whose sole role is to represent the views of the public and to implement policy made by other elected officers and votes by the general membership. Through that RL experience, I discovered through failures as well as successes how to successfully handle oneself in such a position and what the pitfalls to be avoided are. I'll readily admit that I discovered more than a few of thsoe pitfalls by learning the more painful way, but the experience certainly gave me a very important level of experience on what to do in such situations should I ever face them again.

I had the bad luck of being chief executive at a time of enormous crisis for the organization due to events outside of our control, but I was able to do my job and remain in line with the stated wishes of the general membership and our constitution, even when it really pissed a lot of people off and earned me the opposition of various officers who would rather not have done "the inconvenient thing" of following the rules and the popular will that I insisted upon. I remained, at all times, in full realization of my role as a representative and implementer of policy. This did not prevent me from participating in the formation of policy as a member of the general membership, but it bound me to implement whatever policy was decided upon by the established means.

Now I'm sure that UnOrthOdOx has his own experiences from being Vice President here (though we didn't lose the President under his watch) and I'm sure he has RL experiences which could be potentially relevant to the role as well. However, I feel it important to at least forward my own experience in this regard because it is a relevant issue and the voter would understandably be concerned about how I fare on it.

I'm sure more will be discussed about this position and these issues as the campaign continues, but a critical thing to keep in mind is that the voter is not deciding on whether I or UnOrthOdoX is a better poster to the boards or which of us has contributed what to what aspects of the game. It is rather a simple choice between us on which of us would be Vice President, a role which the CoL states has but a two purposes: providing support and aid to the President where requested for Presidential duties and (2) replacing the President should that become necessary. Anything outside of those two items is largely irrelevant to the job, because you know that UnOrthOdOx and myself are both very active members who will perform such extra-VP roles whether we are elected or not. If anything, the greatest concern would be whether having to suddenly become president would impenge on our ability to perform our other non-office roles.

With that, I think I'll wait for the next questioning and commenting on this race before providing my own next comments .

Thank you.

[Nimitz]

If either of you, as VP, had to suddenly become President, what negative impact, if any, would this have on the many things each of you currently do for the forums?

I would not want to lose the gazette or my party news letter.

[UnOrthOdOx]

/me applauds Arnelos.

One minor correction. We DID lose the President under my term. I DID step in, and performed to the best of my ability, playing the turns while maintaining the Directory and finding someone to ensure the production of the Gazette all at the same time. The only resulting drawback was nearly a week to do a turn at the first of our term because MrWIA lost his computer the same day he was holding a chat, and I needed two days to organize the Ministers from that point to how I wanted things done. I drafted an amendment on changing administrations to prevent that case in the future, however.

It doesn't matter how I play my own games. This position has no effect on policy. Yes, I am a Hawk Member. I am as far Center on the Hawk side as Arnelos is Center on the DIA side, however, as should have been abundantly clear by now. That should also have no effect on your vote.

It doesn't matter that I have been around longer, either. Arnelos is perfectly capable to fill this role. I have seen that from his first day here, and have been after him for help with the Gazette ever since.

How are we different? I don't see the VP as a 'largely powerless position'. I see it as THE position of power. As President, your focus is on playing the game. That is your job, to ensure the game goes forth. The VP is the one who should be in control of the boards. Organizing the Orders, maintaining or making the Directory, generally attending to the daily life around here. I have set goals I wish to accomplish, and I will persue those goals with a vigor should I be elected. My last term, I left things unfinished, failing to accomplish some of my goals due to MrWIA's breakdown of his computer that resulted in a weeks worth of double duty for myself. I wish to return and finish what I started.

Reguarding the impact on my current duties. I have be writting the Gazette since early July. In the entire history of the Gazette, it has come out twice a week except once. And that was a time when I had my assistant leave the planet the day he was going to publish his edition. I find a way, period. I may not personally write it, but I find a way to get it done. Donal Graeme, Tassadar 5000, Shiber, GodKing, Arnelos, have all contributed to it's production, and I have faith that one of them, or someone entirely new, will assist again should something happen to interrupt my own ability. The Gazette will continue no matter what happens.

[Arnelos]

Well, I supose we've actually found where UnOrthOdOx and myself differ on the issues, in this case about the job description and expectations for the Vice President.

UnOrthOdOx is arguing that not only would he take on a role of organizing the forums as Vice President, he believes this is part of the duties of the Vice President. I have taken on the opposite opinion, pointing out that adaMada has performed those stated duties over the previous term, not the elected Vice President. Furthermore, I've argued that these duties are covered by adaMada and not Apocalypse because they are not part of the stated duties of the Vice President as laid out in the CoL. Barring any constitutional amendment to the effect of placing them under the Vice President, I feel that adaMada can continue that work as he has stated his willingness to do so. Additional "organization and management of the forums" will be conducted by OPD for now (as moderator, intrusted by MarkG) and perhaps in the future to likely adaMada (as perhaps the elected forums moderator, a position in which he has shown considerable interest).

I support this division of the CoL-established role of the Vice President, one I would be happy to fill, and roles ascribed by some to the Vice President which exist outside the CoL, roles that OPD and adaMada seem eager to accept and which institutional change in our system seems close to codifying into law.

As such, it seems as though UnOrthOdOx is running to be the Vice President he was in Term 2, an institutional role which partially no longer exists, the parts of the duties in which he seems most interested instead belonging to another position. Perhaps I can humbly suggest that perhaps UnOrthOdOx should offer his candidacy for the moderator position, though he makes a perfectly credible candidate (as do I) for the Vice President position as it currently exists.

As I have argued and, looking at the history of the position, every successful candidate for the office other than UnOrthOdOx has argued, the primary responsibility of the Vice President is be active and prepared to take office as President should anything happen to the President. The other responsibility they have is to support the President and perform aspects of the President's role, as the President asks them to perform these aspects. Specifically, the CoL establishes that the VP should take on the following if requested:

1. Hold polls
2. Consulting Ministers
3. Distributing Save Files
4. etc.

I feel that holding polls is something the VP can and should do, where appropriate, as Vice President, not simply when the President is unable. The exception would be those official political polls which the Vice President should defer to and confer with the President on before conducting (especially polls on major policy issues). That aside, the Vice President should be on a constant lookout for issues where the public should have an input and offer polls that allow the public to have that input. The Vice President, in doing so, should follow established procedure and start a pre-poll discussion and engage the membership in that before the poll, but it is the act of looking for the issues where this is most needed and doing so that is so important to what I feel I could do in the VP role. This is an area where Timeline, the second holder of this office (and from what I've looked at, probably the most influential on its evolution), seemed to have been particularly committed to at least in his campaigns.

So that's an area where I think we can actually draw the first signs of a contrast between Unorthodox and myself. Otherwise, it seems that we might as well be identical for purposes of the office for which we're running.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Nimitz
If either of you, as VP, had to suddenly become President, what negative impact, if any, would this have on the many things each of you currently do for the forums?

I would not want to lose the gazette or my party news letter.

Now, in answer to Nimitz's question:

I have thought about this issue, as evidenced by my own previous post. You brought up the party newsletter, which of course made me think about that specifically for the first time as a potential impact. First, I'd like to thank you for making me consider that, as it's something I should think about before embarking on running for Vice President (because, and let's be honest, anyone running for Vice President has to answer questions about what impact it would have upon them should they become acting President, even for a very short period of time).

My thoughts are that I'm doing very little in terms of structured work on the boards right now. I've been very active and I've been posting in a whole bunch of threads, but currently the only institutionalized role I have is making the World Factbook entry for Apolytonia, a role which isn't even institutionalized except for my own willingness to do it. So, in a sense, the populace would have the least to lose should I suddenly have to become President and I had to drop other responsibilities.

That said, UnOrthOdOx is correct in assessing that this type of thing can be handled. I have started to help the Gazette and individuals who work for the Gazette could potentially help out if Unortho had to work as President (though I don't think the Gazette would be quite the same).

As for me, should I actually start writing something akin to a "party newsletter", I'd heavily doubt that it was heavily affected by something like this. The reason is that you all are aware of the sheer activity level I have on the forums... If I were to suddenly stop posting as much as I do, you certainly would notice - let's be honest here. However, I'd still very easily have time for at least the World Factbook entries and a "newsletter", not to mention I'd still likely have time for quite a bit of posting, if not quite what I'm capable of doing now. In other words, I'd have to prioritize... I'd have to drop some things (the sheer volume of my posting) in favor of other things (World Factbook entries, any other analyses I do, any "newsletter", my new duties). So, to be honest, you would see a difference, there's no denying that, but I would obviously prioritize my institutionalized duties over my non-institutionalized ones.

[UnOrthOdOx]

It is true that the organization of the forum is not conducted under the label of VP. In fact, if you read over the CoL, there is NO mention of ANY position that should do the things I state.

I CREATED those jobs. adaMada is doing a fine job on the directory, and I fully hope he will continue to do so. Should he not be able to, I am more than capable of stepping in, however, and I will assure that the directory will remain a part of the forum.

The organizations I speak of, however, do not fall under the heading of the prOphEt either. The prOphEt is here to open the book of ZpellZ to perform the tOpping and dEtOpping ceremonies along with eDitting and other prOphEt functions. I speak of things to go within the threads themselves.

Compiling the orders into one easy acces post, for instance. Organizing the ministers and creating a standard format for posting orders. Organizing the CoL to a somewhat readable format is a goal that I failed to accomplish during my first term, but intend to pursue again.

Are these REQUIRED? NO. I DO see them as part of the job of the VP, however. They need to be done, and they are the things that will assist the President, which IS in the CoL. I am saying that I will not sit idly by waiting for the next President to have some crisis so that I can Spring into aciton. I will be actively attempting to make the forum a better place for all, not merely staying on top of things. It is not a requirement of the position, it is how I personally set the standard for myself to run for VP.

Official polls and discussions should be made, but only after conferring with the President. Some Presidents may wish to make them for themselves, others not. Allot depends on the President. IMO the VP and the Pres should act as one. It worked for me and MrWIA at least. Any arguements we had were done in private, publicly, we may as well been the same person.

[Arnelos]

First, I'll post my thoughts on the specific areas you suggest and then I'll post my general thoughts on this as a whole:

I think either of us is fully capable of some of the things you state and they do seem to be at least things the government should be doing, even if no single position is given them.

One thing I'd curious about is just what you'd intend to do to in order to "compile the orders into one easy access post". I actually like the way the orders are curently posted, with OPD opening the thread and each individual minister posting their orders with whatever additional information, charts, images, or details they feel should be added. This format also allows for the ministers to edit their orders up to the very hour of the turnchat so that even last-minute discussions which convince the minister to change policy can be incorporated into their orders, even if they have to suddenly leave just before the turnchat. This has been used more than once during this term and I think it's actually a strength.

There's such a thing as over-institutionalizing a process that really does not need additional levels of bureaucracy. Just what would compiling all of the orders into a single post or even a single post-format, I presume posted by the Vice President or the President, actually do to augment the effectiveness of the orders or the ministers composing them? It seems that the ministers and their designated representatives at turnchats I've been present at have been perfectly capable of looking up orders threads as they currently exist, reading the orders, and providing them to the President and/or Vice President when asked for. Why more bureaucracy where it seems to be entirely unecessary? (though you are certainly welcome to argue that it is necessary - I'm always open to being convinced by good argumentation)

Your last post gets to precisely the issue I brought up in my first post. What about losing this election prevents either of us from doing the things we are promising to do as Vice President? If there is nothing preventing us from doing them when we are not Vice President, then they aren't relevant.

Specifically, you could "organize the CoL to a somewhat readable format... a goal [you] failed to accomplish during [your] last term, but intend to pursue again" - but this does not require you to be Vice President to accomplish it. Indeed, any citizen, not even including the two of us, can suggest and even start polls on implementing changes in the CoL. Nothing is stopping you from engaging in that pursuit now, which begs the question of why you feel you have to run for Vice President and win in order to accomplish it.

If there's anything I'd like to get accross here, it's that any citizen can be active in making suggestions about government policy, government formats, and the like. Individuals such as the two of us, or the very helpful BigFurryMonster, or others have done much to repeatedly demonstrate this. I only wish more people would realize it, that you don't have to be an elected member of government to perform some role which is helpful to the government.

-------------

This is turning out to be one hell of a good debate I hope the Presidential debate becomes this good

My only fear is that our debate is growing to be so long that most people will not read it in its entirety

[UnOrthOdOx]

Reguarding the compiling of orders.

A single post that contains all orders from all Ministers i easily printed by all in attendance in the turnchat, and is ESSENTIAL to a turnthread when no ministers are present to supply the President with orders. Imagine that instead of ministers having to say 'Mr President, move the Knight S,SE of Termina N, N, W, N, NW, N.' The minister and President both had a structured set of orders, IE, "perform move A1" This way all know what is being done and discussed. If you really want, I can show you some imperfect examples of such structuring as well as numberous accounts by Presidents both past and present on how it made things easy. This is to be done in the orders thread, not in any new post.

Re-Writting the CoL should be done by an official IMO. Yes, anyone can propose changes, you may have noticed the numberous Amendments I have started and polled upon AS A CITIZEN, but I believe a major overhaul of the CoL should be handled by an official. Traditionally the VP posts the CoL each term, and therefore he should be in charge of changing it.

Other goals of mine?

I will perfect the cash rush amendment whether or not elected in fact I am working that now.

I will likely help to write a FAQ as it is needed, though the VP should post it atop the govt thread with the CoL.

I won't attend all weekend chats, or likely any chats if not elected. What incentive is there, I do not personally see the fun in them, and have more important things to do.

I cannot hold a chat if not elected.

I cannot have fun with the position if not elected

I don't believe I could be ofany real assistance with the Con Con without an official position

And I will not organize the orders threads. There would be little to gain from doing the without being in govt andable to benefit from the organization.

Instead I will find other things to occupy myself.


Basically, my motto is:

Do one thing, Do it right, Go beyod what is required, then move on.

I would not want to lose the gazette or my party news letter

This made me laugh, actually. We are too much alike.

The time is the end of term 1. The DIA is running strong in the elections, and the UFC is falling apart. There is that feeling that someone must step forward o we will be faced by a game where the DIA runs the entire show, a feeling I assume many DIA are feeling now.

I came up with a marvelous plan: The Hawk Papers. jdd, remember that?

They would give current information, links to polls, and statements from the party leaders...That was a grand idea, wasn't it jdd?

Then I had a thought. Everyone could benefit from such information. Through some discussion with Timeline, we came to an agreement. I remove the 'member of the hawk party' from my sig, and the DIA would agree to talk to me for the paper.

I then went about what I saw as a neccessity, and asked jdjdjd to begin writting his letters to ME instead of Moral Hazard, editor of the Apolytonian. I attempted to get permission to use that name from Moral, but was unable to reach him and jdjdjd suggested The Jungle Gazette.

Yep. I think that decision, in the beginning I may have cost the Hawks some members, I know it upset some of them somewhat...but in the long run I believe it has helped everyone.

Yes, I nearly wrote a party newsletter as well uner simlar circumstances...

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Reguarding the compiling of orders.

A single post that contains all orders from all Ministers i easily printed by all in attendance in the turnchat, and is ESSENTIAL to a turnthread when no ministers are present to supply the President with orders. Imagine that instead of ministers having to say 'Mr President, move the Knight S,SE of Termina N, N, W, N, NW, N.' The minister and President both had a structured set of orders, IE, "perform move A1" This way all know what is being done and discussed. If you really want, I can show you some imperfect examples of such structuring as well as numberous accounts by Presidents both past and present on how it made things easy. This is to be done in the orders thread, not in any new post.

As I said, I'm fully open to being convinced on this (as with just about any issue), but I'm still not sure of a few things here.

First, doesn't "perform move A1" require the President to go look up what A1 is? Isn't this just re-compartmentalizing the amount of time spent on translating orders? I would think "move the Knight S,SE, of Termina" or whatever is a pretty good example of a "way all know what is being done and discussed". So far, I'm failing to see how this would substantially help and I'm most interested in why OPD isn't using this system if it's as amazingly helpful as you claim.

Re-Writting the CoL should be done by an official IMO. Yes, anyone can propose changes, you may have noticed the numberous Amendments I have started and polled upon AS A CITIZEN, but I believe a major overhaul of the CoL should be handled by an official. Traditionally the VP posts the CoL each term, and therefore he should be in charge of changing it.

FIRST:

And here I respectfully disagree with you. I will continue to maintain that any citizen, regardless of position, can be involved in altering the rules by which we operate and is fully capable of suggesting and even pressing for amendments to have things changed. As you have yourself stated, this is something you and others have demonstrated as citizens. While either of us could post the CoL in a thead each term as VP, I really fail to see why the VP, as an official, has to be the one leading changes to it... anyone not only can do that, but should do that and not feel that they are prevented from doing so by not being an elected official. By suggesting that only as the VP, as an elected official, do you feel you have the right to lead government reforms, I feel you are sending entirely the wrong message to the citizens at-large. We should be sending precisely the opposite message, that everyone is welcome to take on informal leadership roles in Apolytonia, including organizing their own constitutional reforms, even including various (and let's admit, this is what your're talking about) aesthetic changes to the CoL.

SECOND:

The Current Con Con is already doing "a major overhaul of the CoL" and they are "official". Neither one of us are on it and neither are various members of the current government, yet people who are not elected members of the government are on the Con Con... if what you want to do is get involved with the Con Con, why not ask to be on the next Con Con? It seems obvious that you don't have to be Vice President in order to do this. Furthermore, you don't even have to have a Con Con to do an overhaul of the constitution and propose it for a vote.

Again, you are identifiying things you'd like to do "as Vice President" which have nothing, or extremely little, to do with being Vice President.

If you're interested in doing these things, simply do them. Running for this office is about adding things to your plate other than what is above.... things which you've finally touched on below (and I will now get to commenting on).

Other goals of mine?

I will perfect the cash rush amendment whether or not elected in fact I am working that now.

Another example. Just do it... this fails to be a reason to either run for VP or to vote for some to be VP.

I will likely help to write a FAQ as it is needed, though the VP should post it atop the govt thread with the CoL.

I have actually argued myself for the need for something like this and cited my own relatively new status as being someone in the unique position to know exactly what I was confused by when I first got here. I'd be more than willing to work with you and others on this. However, as you seem to indicate by saying you would work on it even if you were not VP, the VP is position is not needed to work on it.

It's great if the VP would help and I'd love to, but it's neither necessary for the VP to do so nor is it necessary to be VP to do so.

I won't attend all weekend chats, or likely any chats if not elected. What incentive is there, I do not personally see the fun in them, and have more important things to do.

This is an area where we obviously are different. I love to attend the chats, even though I have absolutely no role what-so-ever in the government or have even been a reporter for the Gazette until this week. It's something I expect I'd continue to do whether I was VP or not, as I think any citizen should be able to attend and it's very instructive for citizens if they do attend. I've noticed many other citizens in there and, as when you briefly came in this past week, we had a HUGE number of people in there this weekend.

I cannot hold a chat if not elected.

No, neither could I if I weren't elected .

I cannot have fun with the position if not elected

Neither could I if I weren't elected, though I'm sure both of us could still have fun in the game even if we weren't elected.

I don't believe I could be ofany real assistance with the Con Con without an official position

And this is where I strongly disagree with you. Ultimately, whatever the Con Con is going to suggest to the public is going to be presented (and if they are to be believed, rather soon) to the general public. When that happens, there will be a long period of public discussion and reforms of the reforms (META-reform ) before many of them go to votes and we have permanent changes. As with any citizen of Apolytonia, you are quite free to participate in this process without being Vice President.

What makes me truly and sadly puzzled is wondering why you feel you must hold an official position for this type of stuff... it makes me worry greatly that there are many others like you who feel the same way and are not contributing what they could as citizens - but unlike you they do not have the popularity on the boards and the time to run for VP... that's what makes me really worry and it is something I would like to be able to combat as a citizen or as Vice President. I could either use the bully pulpit or I could lead by example, but I'd love to knock this idea that you have to be an elected official to do stuff like this out of people's heads.

And I will not organize the orders threads. There would be little to gain from doing the without being in govt andable to benefit from the organization.

Instead I will find other things to occupy myself.

Little to gain? Little to gain? Aside from the entire issue of whether it makes any difference (something which you still have made a fully convincing argument on - setting that aside here), you would give up doing something you think would help the government and could suggest whether you were in government or not simply because you were not Vice President? If this would actually help, as you claim, would this not benefit all Apolytonians and be worthwhile of your time to suggest whether you were Vice President or not?

C'mon now... you have been nothing if not truly unstopable in your commitment to many a reform proposal... you can't possibly mean that you'd simply give it up because you didn't have the VP position!

This made me laugh, actually. We are too much alike.

...

I'm glad Yes, I agree that we seem to be all too far alike... I was noticing this myself more when I was desperately trying to organize my beleagered party late last week or when I was lambasting poor jdd2007 in the role-play Republican thread specifically citing you as the source for the style of my bashing of the guy They say that imitation is the highest form of flattery. I certainly have not meant to flatter you , but I'm sure it didn't hurt that I was fair enough to cite you for using your method of bashing the leader of an opposing party for being whinny, no?

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Arnelos
TERM 2 ELECTION:

Timeline (DIA):
- ran on same platform as Term 1 special race
- re-iterated argument that VP's main job is just to be ready in the event the president resigns or goes missing
- responded to Apoc's argument that the VP should not be in a party by asking why it's then ok for the Prez to be from a party
- Argued that the DIA is based upon "being cool-headed" and reasonable/practicable. Worries that candidates of the party would use their positions to go declare war on opposing civs because they felt like it were not a concern with the DIA as they were with the UFC.

Apocalypse (Independent):
- Apoc argued that the VP should not be a member of a political party
- The VP should fill in missing minister positions or Prez as needed
- People should vote person before party
- If VP is from a party and fills in for someone of another party, this could change policy

Others:
- several posters pointed out that VP is largely just figure-head

The race:
The race got mildly ugly when Apoc quoted a joke/roleplay post by Timeline and used it as an example of Timeline's partisanship. An argument ensued about the roleplay nature of the post and even over the mispelling of words in posts by either candidate...

Election Results (July 12 - July 17):
Timeline (DIA): 78 (73.58%)
Apocalypse (Independent): 28 (26.42%)

This isn't all that happened.

First, I mainly ran just to get my name out there when preparing my campaign to be a judge. I didn't really care if I won or not.
Second, during most of the campaigning time I was away on vacation. I didn't have enough time to launch my Mr. T campaign.

Now I'll discuss more stuff that happened.

The race spilled into about three other treads. It became pretty funny.
Timeline has an avatar of a carrier. I changed my avatar to Eva Unit 02 on top of a carrier. It was really funny.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Apocalypse

This isn't all that happened.

First, I mainly ran just to get my name out there when preparing my campaign to be a judge. I didn't really care if I won or not.
Second, during most of the campaigning time I was away on vacation. I didn't have enough time to launch my Mr. T campaign.

Now I'll discuss more stuff that happened.

The race spilled into about three other treads. It became pretty funny.
Timeline has an avatar of a carrier. I changed my avatar to Eva Unit 02 on top of a carrier. It was really funny.

Ah... I only read the "official" VP campaign thread, didn't notice any others (they must have been labeled other things).

By far the funniest thing I ran into was a thread started by poor jdd2007 in which he attempted to start a poll, but forgot to click the little "this is a poll" checkbox at the bottom of the first post .... and the ensuing series of bumps by people bringing the skeleton back out of poor jdd2007's closet I was extremely tempted to bump the thread when I read it, but I ended up being barely able to contain that particular temptation. jdd2007 can pay me later for that (unless I yet fall to the temptation, that is)

[Apocalypse]

I'm pretty sure that jdd thread was closed.

Those threads the VP campaign carried into had nothing to do with the VP race

I even took shots at Timeline for being late to a turnchat.

[UnOrthOdOx]

What people say about the order being Compiled. I did this, and HAVE suggested it many times. You and many people are new and perhaps unfamiliar with the idea, however, so some examples.

Aro posted:


UnOrthO, was very easy follow the orders when you was making the compilation. Anyone was able to understand, even me!
IMO, this REALLY can help.

Edit: I'm very sorry for the excessive use of the "was" ( I can do much better in Portuguese, I swear on my life! ). I just don't know how to write the phrase in another way!
I really need to learn English.

OPD posted:

That would be great if I could print out all the orders I could cut down the time taken to do each turn considerably.

An example of what compiled orders look like:

General Orders

---

A. FAM Orders

b]Treaties[/b]
A. Do not accept a peace treaty from Persia, but report to the public and Foreign Ministry as to the best deal we can get.
B. Do not sign any ROPs (but report any offers and best deals to the Ministry and Public)

Trades
C. Do not trade World or Territory Maps.
D. Do make any tech trade deal where the total cost (in gold) comes to over 350 gold (including gold per turn).

Demands (Give in only if demand is semi-reasonable)
E. Give in: Rome, Greece.
F. Refuse: England, Persia, Germany, France, Aztecs, America, Russia, Babylon, Iroquois.
* NOTE: Demands from charity civs can be accepted if they are small enough.
* NOTE: Do not give in to any demands that involve giving away our World or Terratory Maps, even if it comes from a civ who we would otherwise accept a demand from.

Charities (civs we don't mind giving good deals to in tech or trade)
G. Iroquois

For minor events not addressed in these orders, the President should use his own best judgement as to what he thinks the Foreign Ministry would order. For major events, the turnthread should be stopped early. This policy also applies should any of these orders become illogical due to events in the game.

B. MOS Orders
Order of reseach:
Theology -> Education

About the tech rate, I have been thinking...
Didn't Shiber do research and find that it costs less to research now than to buy? We will probably try to buy Theology in the peace with Persia so it seems only logical to INCREASE science spending right now to save money in the long run.


C. MOE Orders
D. IE Orders
70 AD

---

A. City Planner Orders

1. Apolyton – tax man to scientist (per the plan)
2. Termina – Change to war chariot
3. Tassagrad – Work mine instead of sea. Change to war chariot
4. Jerusalem – Work grass with road for extra shield
5. AGC – If Purchase, then worker. If worker is purchased, then settler or temple depending on growth rate of city.
6. Geo – Change if necessary for defense. If can purchase, then war effort (pres. Choice, recommend barricks)
7. Uber – Work the iron hill instead of ocean. If purchased then sword, horse or pike (SMC if available, else pres. Choice).

B. Public Works OrdersC. SMC Orders

1. Upgrade Sp in Gaia to Pike
2. Sp in Loveshack e,e

D. FAM Orders

• Trade dyes to Greece for maximum Gold plus WM (or best other available deal)
• Trade dyes and whatever cash is necessary to Rome for Ivory (and TM/WM, if price is cheep enough in the opinion of the President).
• Trade horses to France for maximum profit.

---

It has helped to speed and ease turns played each time such a system is used.

You seem to wish to harp on why I will not do these things if not elected. My time is important. I believe it is the VP's job to improve the forum, not because it is written in the CoL, hell, I may as well have been VP last term as I was certainly doing the VP's job acording to the CoL, I kept up on the current events, I started polls, byall rights i COULD have played trns if neded... We all know that CoL is garbage. It is being thrown out, and the Con Con created. I believe that every VP should go BEYOND what is simply stated within the CoL. I ask, why are you not willing to accept any new responsibility simply because it is not written for you to do so?

I have many things I can accomplish. If elected VP, I will choose to spend my time woking on the things around here that I believe can be improved, as I believe it will be a part of my responsibility. If not, I am just as likely to make commitments elsewhere and mve to improve things elsewhere. I have a limited amount of time. Holding office means that more of my time will be spent here, therefore I will have more time to improve and accomplish my goals. If not, my time will be devided among many different things, so I will simply not have time to do all I would like to see done, but I want to get these out into the open so that capable people like Arnelos here will see them, and hopefully act upon them.

Reguarding the Con Con, I was saying I would not be able to significantly help without a job because I will not be abe to actually try things out for them. Sure I will post my opinions on the matter, someone try to stop me, but I wont be in a position to directly assist in attempting to start this or that within the Govt so that bgs will be worked out.

Re: chats. I actually have trouble reading fast enough to keep up, so they are difficult for me to enjoy or follow.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
In the entire history of the Gazette, it has come out twice a week except once. And that was a time when I had my assistant leave the planet the day he was going to publish his edition.

Only on Apolyton would you read something like that.

Looks like a great race. I wouldn't be sorry to see either candidate in office.

I have a question for both of you: Arnelos has said he likes to attend turnchats, whereas Unortho has said he finds them too fast to read. But, since you may have to take over the president's duties, what are your views as the head of a turn* rather than an attendee? Would you prefer turnchats or turnthreads? If there was a strong sentiment among the citizenry for the other method, could and would you change it?