VP campaign thread

[Arnelos]

Man... I was just about to go to bed and respond to the next post in the morning when you posted

Being me, however, I can't do much but respond immediately rather than wait for morning

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
What people say about the order being Compiled.....

I really wish we had some people in here other than the two of us to comment on this... (HINT to anyone still bothering to read this far )

You seem to wish to harp on why I will not do these things if not elected. My time is important. I believe it is the VP's job to improve the forum, not because it is written in the CoL, hell, I may as well have been VP last term as I was certainly doing the VP's job acording to the CoL, I kept up on the current events, I started polls, byall rights i COULD have played trns if neded... We all know that CoL is garbage. It is being thrown out, and the Con Con created. I believe that every VP should go BEYOND what is simply stated within the CoL. I ask, why are you not willing to accept any new responsibility simply because it is not written for you to do so?

I knew you had to get to this at some point, was sorta wondering why you hadn't yet

Let me explain the reason why I have taken such exception to your method of running for office here... the reason is that I've used exactly the same tactic before because it normally works extremely well, especially against poorly prepared opponents.

The tactic (which you are using) goes something like this:

- You are running for an office for which you have more time to expend than the limited responsibilities of the office require.
- So, in an effort both to bolster your own popularity and the formidability of your candidacy, you start adding to the responsibilities of the office specific things you feel you would be good at doing while implying that these are absolutely necessary parts of the job despite their absense from the job description.
- This helps you to gain both popularity for your willingness to perform "extra sacrifices" for the job (sacrifices which, in reality, have little to do with the job description) and intimidate opponent(s) because they are sacrifices which you have selected.
- Once you are elected, you implement these extra items and imply in any later election that they are necessary parts of the job... this makes it almost impossible for anyone to run against you because you work over the course of your term to taylor such things to your own talents... thus meaning anyone who challenges you must promise to do everything you do as well as you do it... all above and beyond the job description of the office... this is precisely why Reddawg, in particular, is currently unbeatable.

Your opponent typically feels trapped into taking one of three unfortunate courses of action:

1. Saying they can match what you have promised, which inevitably allows you to say that they're without any fresh ideas and just copying your own.

2. Trying to "one-up" you by promising their own list of things they'd add to the job description and implying that they are necessary to the job. This inevitably leads to campaign that is little more than an irresponsible bidding war over "who is willing to sacrifice more" when the real question should be why the two candidates are ever less realistic portrayals of the actual job and straying dangerously toward the territory of writing an impossible job description which ultimately dooms the winner of the election to disapoint the unrealistic expectations they set up in the campaign with all of their myriad promises (U.S. Presidential elections do this a hell of a lot...)

3. Fearing the suddenly increased magnitude of the job, they simply drop out of the race.

The fundamental flaw with this campaign tactic, one I've used before myself quite successfully more than once because the vast majority of candidates fall for it every time, is that it moves the focus of the campaign away from the relevant issues and job responsibilities (ones which the candidate using hte tactic typically knows don't shed enough favorable contrast between themselves and their opponent) into a battle over areas that do shed contrast between the candidates, but have little or nothing to do with the job description.

The best counter to the tactic if you want to avoid the insane one-upsmanship which all-too-often leads to a completely rediculous race to see who wants to promise more and more sacrifices and become the better martyr and get completely off-track from the most important issues is to simply refuse to play that game. Whenever your opponent strays from the course, knock them back onto it.

The voters are not voting on whether I or you are willing to sacrifice more of our time, offer more ideas, or work on more projects on behalf of Apolytonia. I have my own lengthy list of projects I'd love to do here and I plan on doing several of them in the coming term and I might end up sharing many of them by the end of this campaign - the difference is that I seem to realize that those things are not what this campaign is about.

This said, whenever you bring up issues which relate to the actual job description, whether explicitly in the CoL or generally accepted as being underneath the job, including by the current holder of the office or at least reasonably within the bounds of things people might expect specifically of the Vice President and not simply of any concerned citizen, then I will respond and offer my own thoughts on such things. Of the many many things you have attempted to tack onto the job description of Vice President which are not part of that job, exceedingly few meet this standard.

I think you're a fabulous citizen of Apolytonia and I know you think similar of myself. We are both extremely active and have a lot of ideas, but the vast majority of the ideas we have about next term are entirely seperate issues from the one which is most important to the voter: which of these two candidates would best meet the following job description and what can be reasonably extended from it:

"The right hand of the President; he may assist the president in any way currently needed (holding polls, consulting ministers, distributing the save files, etc). In the event the President is unable to play his turn, the Vice-president shall play the turn instead."

You have stated repeatedly that "IF elected VP, I will...." and followed such a statement with promise after promise after promise of things not in the job description. My continued response has been why you must state IF in such statements when your capability to perform them is not dependent on being Vice President. I have a lot of things I plan to do next term, but the vast majority of them I refuse to preface with the line "IF elected Vice President...", even if such a statement were to help me be elected. That's a very key difference between your argument and my own. Being Vice President will allow me to provide support to the President and any ministers when requested or when it seems needed, it will allow me to have a more active role in creating official polls when allowed by the President, will allow me to take on a more direct/official role in any turnchat or with any cabinet communication, and may even allow me to run turnchats, but it is not the event or non-event upon which is hinging whether I will bother to help Apolytonia in various other ways.

This is not about what either of us would do next term as an Apolytonian, it is about what we would do (narrowly considered) as Vice President.

As such, I'm going to attempt to strike at that specific set of the issues of the highest relevance (though you have successfully managed to get off track from the last time I actually spoke on them):

FIRST: TURNCHATS

1. TURNCHAT ATTENDANCE: I am a current attendee at most turnchats despite not being a member of the cabinet. It is a reasonable expectation that I would continue this habit in the future as Vice President, though increasing my commitment by being present at all turn chats at which I can be reasonably expected to attend (baring RL concerns).

2. TURNCHAT PROTOCOL: I'd like to talk to whomever becomes President about implementing something of added protocol during the turnchat itself and in the form of a variation on the old system of having all orders officially submitted by the ministers in the ministers room and having the public discussion in the main room. My personal proposal is that the ministers' room would be used solely for transmitted orders from ministers (or their designated representatives) where orders need revision or the President or VP requests the clarification of orders, etc. The ministers room would not be used for a seperate discussion there, ministers can private message each other in IRC if they need a request from a specific minister, but general discussions should be held in the main channel with everyone who is there present to comment. The main IRC channel would be used for general discussion and for the executive conducting the turnchat (whether the President or the Vice President) to post results and conduct quick polls (I really like OPD's tendency of using these frequently in unforseen situations, btw... ). I am extremely flexible on this and understand that it will be the President, not myself, who runs the majority, if not even all, of the turnchats or turnthreads during the term. As stated at the top, this is simply where I would start in what would be a discussion between myself and the President about how to conduct turnchats.

3. TURNTHREAD PROTOCOL: As with turnchat protocol, I would start the discussion with the President by suggesting that one thread be decided solely for ministers to provide orders clarifications, modified or new orders, and answer questions posed to them (specifically) by the acting executive (whether the President or the VP). Another or other threads would be established for turnthread discussion. I admittedly have no experience with turnthreads, so I'd obviously defer to the President's judgement if either Ninot or WhiteBandit were elected on what best to do from their knowledge of turnthreads and their own preferences, but this would certainly not stop me from offering suggestions based upon my own knowledge of observing turnchats and being a poster on the boards.

4. TURN CHAT/THREAD OBSERVATION AND SUGGESTIONS: One thing I would certainly watch out for and could help with as Vice President is to keep an eye on the smoothness of turnthreads and/or turnchats while they are taking place and confer with the President after each turnthread and/or turnchat to suggest various changes from what I noticed. I could also, in a similar regard, collect feedback from people present for turnthreads and/or turnchats for this purpose. This is an area where I believe the VP could be useful in "supporting the President" and is a reasonable extention of that part of the VP's established job description.

SECOND: POLLS

CONVERSING WITH THE PRESIDENT AND MINISTERS: I would do my utmost to ensure that I have confered with the President and deferred to the President on the issue of starting official polls or pre-poll discussion for official polls. I will constantly (as whenever I am on Apolyton, which is a whole lot!) be on the lookout for issues that could have polls. I think people will find that I am the type to be more likely than most to post items of interest to the populace as official polls (following a lengthy pre-poll discussion, of course) upon which they can comment. I will have to reign myself in at the discretion of the President, of course, something which I am fully prepared to do. However, the President (whichover one of the current candidates he turns out to be) will likely find that I suggest issues for pre-poll discussions and polls probably more often than the typically government minister or Vice President. It is my firm belief that open and lengthy discussion by many of the extremely bright Civ3 players we have here, on just about any issue (though I will have to be selective to an extent so that each issue can actually be handled), is advantageous to us. I will have to confer with any minister(s) whom the poll results affect as well.

PRE-POLL DISCUSSION: I will start pre-poll discussions with a non-partial post and a listing (using the best of my analytical ability) of what all of the potential and reasonable options seem to be off the top of my head as merely a spring-board. As the discussion continues, I will attempt to guide it toward the point where there are 2 or more solid options that people have coalesced around. This statement makes this process sound easy, something which it is certainly not. I realize this because I've been a moderator before. Though I've played the role of an active moderator and a passive moderator before, I definately think the role of a slightly more active moderator is called for in this case (one who states their own opinion as well as attempting to help the group identifity the key and viable options which would be placed in a poll). Once I believe that point is reached, I believe it something of a courtesy (unless we are especially pressed for time) to then post in the thread to ask if everyone who has been actively posting in the thread is satisfied with the chosen poll options... if not, alteration can be done... if so, it goes to a poll...

THE POLLS THEMSELVES: I have a background in survey research, so polls are really cool to me (yeah, I'm a social science geek ). It also happens to mean that I have something of an understanding of how the wording of surveys and polls and the order of choices on surveys and polls can affect how people respond to them. I will obviously keep that in mind as I write polls and attempt to make them as non-partisan as my lack of sleep at the time I'm posting the poll will reasonably allow . I've attempted to do this on occassion when I've written unofficial polls (though not all of them ). As I've also been doing with my unofficial polls, I will refrain from voting until at least 5-6 people have voted to prevent people from realizing how I might have voted (not that I'm especially influential and people may be already aware of my views, but it's just a good habit if you're the one posting the poll).

THIRD: SUPPORTING MINISTERS

STANDING IN: Although most of the ministers now have vice-ministers who can take over for them in the event they have something come up, I would also be available to support them by representing them at the turnchats and turnthreads I would already be attending.

COMMUNICATION ISSUES: I would see as a reasonable extention of my role in this regard that I could watch out for examples of faltering communication between various ministers and tactfully ( ) alert them to it when it occurs and offer suggestions or help if it is requested. Otherwise, I would be available in the event ministers needed to discuss this issue or others related.

PROJECTS: Obviously, there are many projects a minister might ask of me which I would be able and willing to do if I was Vice President or not... this is not what I'm getting at here as it is not pertinent to me running for Vice President. Rather, my point here is that I would be open to ministers making specific requests for projects that would fall within what is mentioned above, especially where regarding pre-poll discussions and official polls or other job-related projects as suggested by them.

FOURTH: PLAYING FOR THE PRESIDENT

TIMES I WOULD HOLD TURNCHATS: Should I be called upon to stand in for the President on a temporary or permanent basis, I will be fully ready to do so. I am free during most of the day on all weekends. The only times on weekends I am not free is typically between 6 a.m. and 1 p.m. Eastern Time (currently 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. GMT, will become 11 a.m. to 6 p.m. GMT). I would prefer to hold weekend chats starting on Saturday or Sunday afternoons starting around 3 p.m. Eastern Time (7 p.m. GMT, later 8 p.m. GMT). As for weekday chats, Wednesday evenings right now work well for me, though I'd expect that they would need to be later in the evening (probably starting around 5 p.m. Eastern time, which is currently 9 p.m. GMT and will become 10 p.m. GMT).

WHAT IT WOULD MEAN FOR ME TO PERMANENTLY REPLACE THE PRESIDENT: If I have need to be completely honest about this (and I strongly believe that I do) it might mean a reduced level of posting activity on the boards, though I would certainly attempt to keep up the following:
1. Pre-poll discussions and polls
2. Collecting suggestions about turnchats/turnthreads
3. Some of my outside projects such as the World Factbook entries and other things I add. However, these would admittedly be the first to go if I really had a time problem - I would find another, if possible, to pick them up, as there are plenty of extraordinarly bright people around here who might likely find ways of innovating with what I do and improve it

----------------

Ok, I'm starting to get rather tired and it's already past 1 a.m. here now. So I'm going to head to sleep and check to see if there's anything new in the morning.

Assuming people actually slosh through reading all of the above (I certainly hope so... it's the most on-topic part of this entire thread, IMNSHO), then perhaps they will have thoughts that I can learn about and allow to affect my thinking in the morning. That's another thing about me that is extremely important and which I've demonstrated repeatedly on the boards... I will always remain open to being convinced and changing my mind, I don't really even care if it makes me look fickle because I'm suddenly agreeing with my opponent... if someone presents a convincing argument that I find I can agree with, I'm not just going to stick to my guns for the sake of my ego. My ego's not worth as much as being right

[DAVOUT]

These guys are setting the standard of campaign dialectics incredible hight. Democracy is really beautiful when worked this way.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I would like to thank Arnelos for pointing out that my point seems to not be getting across.

Turn chats and threads.

I want to do the compiled orders as stated. This is not an 'extra duty' that I am attempting to tack on to the job, it is the protocol that I wish to use and institute. It has been used, and proven usefull in the past for both turnchats and turnthreads. I am simply laying out my specific plan to accomplish this task.

Barring MrWIA instituting the turnchat schedule from hell, which I COULD attend, I simply cannot attend chats during the weekday time. They start at 2PM my time, and I am still working.

Polls

I have a long history of creating polls around here. The last three amendments have been started by myself, and all three will be completed.

Again, I listed finishing the Cash amendment and rewrittng the CoL as things I am Planning to poll on when I get them completed, not as an 'extra duty'. I am merely laying out my actual plans, not a general if needed I will make polls like this.

Misters.

I have always been an aid to the ministers, and will continue to do so if asked VP or not. I believe that once again, the compiled orders are a great way to place orders easily accessible to all ministers, and make it as easy to read as possible. This prevents conflicting orders and generally speeds the discussion.

Playing

I really suck at figuring GMT. I can play after 7PM on weekdays, and all day Saturday.

If the President needs permanent replacement, however, an emergency poll should be held to do so.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I would like to thank Arnelos for pointing out that my point seems to not be getting across.

And I would like to profusely thank UnOrthOdOx for doing two things for me:

1. Enlightening me to various ideas and different ways of doing things that I had honestly not thought about before. As I've stated elsewhere, I remain open to being convinced by good argumentation and I'm extremely thankful to UnOrthOdOx for providing several ideas that I'm now mulling.

2. By becoming a candidate, forcing me to think far more intensively and critically about the job I'm running for: what it would require of me, what I might be able to bring to it, and how I can argue my campaign. I must honestly admit that I would not have anywhere nearly as well-thought-out a conception of the job or how I might fit into it without UnOrthOdOx as an incredibly strong competitor to force me to do that. Without UnOrthOdOx, it is quite certain that I would be far more complacent in my campaign... no point in hiding that, I freely admit it. Because he is running, I now have a far better idea of the job and what I would do to meet it simply because I've had to think so much about it to fuel my argumentation. So while I was initially disappointed that I had such formidable competition (who wouldn't? ), I now am certainly extremely thankful for the stimulus it has provided to making me a far better candidate

So thanks to you as well

[UnOrthOdOx]

I am not sure if someone already informed you,
/me eyes OPD, and current Candidates...
but this was the exact reason I proposed myself as a candidate. I saw that you were being complacent, I knew I could get you fired up, and I knew it would make you better prepared for the job in the end. I now leave this job in your more than capable hands, and hope you will take some of the things to heart, and continue to prepare for your job next term.

I fully intended to keep this up untill Friday evening, but I cannot guarantee that I will be on to stop it in time, as I am gettting VERY busy. I am stepping down. I do not have time for this position this month, or to make many changes on the forum. Why?

I own and operate a spook alley for children age 3-8. It opens tomorrow for the 8th year in a row. You can't imagine all the last minute preperations we are having to make... All cash made goes to a burn unit for children at a local hospital (my partner is a Fireman...). The first year we made $300 after expenses, last year we made $20,000. This year I have managed a number of new sponsors, and am moving to a larger building, fully expecting an even greater turnout. This just absolutely must take a precidence over the forum here. If any of you live in Utah, let me know and I will give you the address.

Besides, if this game has taught us nothing else, it is new blood makes for great improvements. I had my turn, it is time to get new ideas into the position.

[adaMada]

Originally posted by Arnelos
Man... I was just about to go to bed and respond to the next post in the morning when you posted

Being me, however, I can't do much but respond immediately rather than wait for morning

I tried to respond to one of your posts last night, but had to drop it when it started to take forever .

I really wish we had some people in here other than the two of us to comment on this... (HINT to anyone still bothering to read this far )

UnOrthO's compiled orders ruled. They made things a lot easier. It was my understanding that MWIA loved them too, and I liked how it seemed to speed turnchats up (though I bet it made it harder for those who wanted to play along, it was a lot easier for me personally that way). As to why they're not being done this term -- no one seems to have the time. Just FYI, Arnelos -- I think you'll probably find them useful as well if you see them in action for a bit.

I knew you had to get to this at some point, was sorta wondering why you hadn't yet

Let me explain the reason why I have taken such exception to your method of running for office here... the reason is that I've used exactly the same tactic before because it normally works extremely well, especially against poorly prepared opponents.

The tactic (which you are using) goes something like this:

- You are running for an office for which you have more time to expend than the limited responsibilities of the office require.
- So, in an effort both to bolster your own popularity and the formidability of your candidacy, you start adding to the responsibilities of the office specific things you feel you would be good at doing while implying that these are absolutely necessary parts of the job despite their absense from the job description.
- This helps you to gain both popularity for your willingness to perform "extra sacrifices" for the job (sacrifices which, in reality, have little to do with the job description) and intimidate opponent(s) because they are sacrifices which you have selected.
- Once you are elected, you implement these extra items and imply in any later election that they are necessary parts of the job... this makes it almost impossible for anyone to run against you because you work over the course of your term to taylor such things to your own talents... thus meaning anyone who challenges you must promise to do everything you do as well as you do it... all above and beyond the job description of the office... this is precisely why Reddawg, in particular, is currently unbeatable.

I'm not sure this is a very fair analysis of this situation, though the end effect might be true (never thought of it in this light before)... UnOrthO sets goals for himself based on his job. Though it isn't explicitly written into the CoL that UnOrthO should go beyond the base Vice Presidental responsibilites, it is understood that he only takes on jobs where he feels he can innovate new solutions, and it is understood that if he does take on a job, he will go beyond what's being done now (understood being by those who know him or were around during his previous term).

Your opponent typically feels trapped into taking one of three unfortunate courses of action:

1. Saying they can match what you have promised, which inevitably allows you to say that they're without any fresh ideas and just copying your own.

2. Trying to "one-up" you by promising their own list of things they'd add to the job description and implying that they are necessary to the job. This inevitably leads to campaign that is little more than an irresponsible bidding war over "who is willing to sacrifice more" when the real question should be why the two candidates are ever less realistic portrayals of the actual job and straying dangerously toward the territory of writing an impossible job description which ultimately dooms the winner of the election to disapoint the unrealistic expectations they set up in the campaign with all of their myriad promises (U.S. Presidential elections do this a hell of a lot...)

3. Fearing the suddenly increased magnitude of the job, they simply drop out of the race.

Can't really comment on that, since I'm still not sure that it's a tactic in this case. It might have these effects -- again, I've never thought about it this way -- but I don't think it's intended too, or even has had these effects -- Apoc toned down the VP role when he took the job, and had no trouble. If UnOrthO wants to expand the VP's responsibliities for his term then I think that's fine -- it's his way of taking on the VP role, which doesn't have much in it by the CoL, and expanding upon it.

The fundamental flaw with this campaign tactic, one I've used before myself quite successfully more than once because the vast majority of candidates fall for it every time, is that it moves the focus of the campaign away from the relevant issues and job responsibilities (ones which the candidate using hte tactic typically knows don't shed enough favorable contrast between themselves and their opponent) into a battle over areas that do shed contrast between the candidates, but have little or nothing to do with the job description.

I understand your arguement, but would have to disagree in this case. To be honest, the VP job description just doesn't give him much to do (except in emergencies). The VP, if he just does what the CoL says, is a meaningless position with an active president. The way that some Vice Presidents have been able to counter that is by taking on other roles around the forum as part of their VP job, which I think is a fine practice, and haven't seen it hurting any canidates yet.

** snip a bit of text **

The voters are not voting on whether I or you are willing to sacrifice more of our time, offer more ideas, or work on more projects on behalf of Apolytonia. I have my own lengthy list of projects I'd love to do here and I plan on doing several of them in the coming term and I might end up sharing many of them by the end of this campaign - the difference is that I seem to realize that those things are not what this campaign is about.

I'm a bit confused by what this campaign is about, then . If you both are going to argue over how you plan to follow the CoL's guidelines, then we could basically just ask "Will do you Turnchats or Threads? How often? Even if you don't need to?" and then close the thread now.

This said, whenever you bring up issues which relate to the actual job description, whether explicitly in the CoL or generally accepted as being underneath the job, including by the current holder of the office or at least reasonably within the bounds of things people might expect specifically of the Vice President and not simply of any concerned citizen, then I will respond and offer my own thoughts on such things. Of the many many things you have attempted to tack onto the job description of Vice President which are not part of that job, exceedingly few meet this standard.

See above . I disagree on the definition of the standard.

** snip a bit more, since my response would be redundant... **

"The right hand of the President; he may assist the president in any way currently needed (holding polls, consulting ministers, distributing the save files, etc). In the event the President is unable to play his turn, the Vice-president shall play the turn instead."

Actually, I'd say most of UnOrthO's Vice Presidental innovations do further this goal. His chat order compilation assists the President; though it is not explicitly stated, his directory and CoL rewriting project would assist the people, who (in my opinion) he does serve (though not by his job description).

** snippty snip **

This is not about what either of us would do next term as an Apolytonian, it is about what we would do (narrowly considered) as Vice President.

As such, I'm going to attempt to strike at that specific set of the issues of the highest relevance (though you have successfully managed to get off track from the last time I actually spoke on them):

Ok, I guess I'll go ahead and give my thoughts on the issues you've addressed then, and what I'm looking for from them.

FIRST: TURNCHATS

Fair enough issue, though I think it's too narrow to hold the entire debate on.

2. TURNCHAT PROTOCOL:

I'd be willing to see some more structure in turnchats, though I think it's generally not needed -- we've seen one or two that have really needed it, but many that haven't.

Having said that, by your strict definition of what falls under the VP's job and what doesn't, wouldn't this be a doesn't? The CoL doesn't require that the VP innovate in that field... of course, I'm happy that it's getting discussion, and I want a VP that will be innovative and try new things, but I thought I'd point what I consider an inconsistancy out.

3. TURNTHREAD PROTOCOL:

Fair enough . If we added the list of compiled orders, I don't think our turnthread system needs much innovation (a seperate thread for comments might be nice, might not, but I'd be willing to try it for a term ).

4. TURN CHAT/THREAD OBSERVATION AND SUGGESTIONS:

Again, fair enough.

SECOND: POLLS

CONVERSING WITH THE PRESIDENT AND MINISTERS:

I wouldn't mind seeing the VP post polls that the Government believes are important issues. I'm not sure it's needed, but I'd like to see how well it'd work before I write it off -- it could be very useful.

PRE-POLL DISCUSSION:

I don't have any problems with this system, and would be very interested in seeing how well it'd work. Good idea .

** snip information on polls themself: my response is same as above **

THIRD: SUPPORTING MINISTERS

I like the idea of having the VP coordinate between ministers -- I've always felt it was an executive power, and considered proposing that the Con Con explicitly write it into the CoL (not saying that the Con Con has or hasn't, just saying I considered proposing it before the Con Con had gotten started ). I'd really like to see the VP canidate take an active role in this area.

** snip playing for the pres. section **

* snip out ending portion*

I'm not trying to seem pro UnOrthO, though I'm sure I sound that way, but I do respectfully disagree with Arnelos's analysis and thoughts on what are potential jobs appropriate for the VP and what aren't. We may have to agree to disagree on this issue, and who knows -- maybe I'll eventually be brought around to your way of thinking, or you'll come to mine.

-- adaMada

[adaMada]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I am not sure if someone already informed you,
* UnOrthOdOx eyes OPD, and current Candidates...
but this was the exact reason I proposed myself as a candidate. I saw that you were being complacent, I knew I could get you fired up, and I knew it would make you better prepared for the job in the end. I now leave this job in your more than capable hands, and hope you will take some of the things to heart, and continue to prepare for your job next term.

I fully intended to keep this up untill Friday evening, but I cannot guarantee that I will be on to stop it in time, as I am gettting VERY busy. I am stepping down. I do not have time for this position this month, or to make many changes on the forum. Why?

I own and operate a spook alley for children age 3-8. It opens tomorrow for the 8th year in a row. You can't imagine all the last minute preperations we are having to make... All cash made goes to a burn unit for children at a local hospital (my partner is a Fireman...). The first year we made $300 after expenses, last year we made $20,000. This year I have managed a number of new sponsors, and am moving to a larger building, fully expecting an even greater turnout. This just absolutely must take a precidence over the forum here. If any of you live in Utah, let me know and I will give you the address.

Besides, if this game has taught us nothing else, it is new blood makes for great improvements. I had my turn, it is time to get new ideas into the position.

Grr... and I went ahead and posted that long response .

Ah well. UnOrthO, you did a good job of fireing things up a bit. Very long campeign thread .

Arnelos -- You'll do fine. I really would like to see you take on some of UnOrthO's proposed projects (or even some of his old ones, such as the Orders Compilation), since they do sound like solid, good ideas that I do believe are appropriate for the VP, but that's your call. Either way, I think you'll be fine, and would wish you the best of luck .

-- adaMada

[UnOrthOdOx]

One long post, there ada, I suggest you read my last one...

Oh you didn't have to delete it all....

Put the structured orders stuff back in

[adaMada]

We posted the same minute .

I won't delete my really really long one -- it's one of many really really long posts in this thread , and I think the points are still valid (though no longer important ). Besides, I know how much you hate deletions . Having said that, I'll drop the issue unless Arnelos wants to talk it over more -- as I said, it's unimportant, and I really do think he'll do a great job .

-- adaMada

[UnOrthOdOx]

If I had known people were still reading, I may have held off a bit longer...oh well.

I hope the Arnelos will continue to address the issues, however. Compiling orders can be a great help, but maybe there is another way as well, I don't know

ada...

Though it isn't explicitly written into the CoL that UnOrthO should go beyond the base Vice Presidental responsibilites, it is understood that he only takes on jobs where he feels he can innovate new solutions, and it is understood that if he does take on a job, he will go beyond what's being done now (understood being by those who know him or were around during his previous term).

This is, perhaps, the second greatest compliment anyone has ever given me. The first was what my boss said to a 3 Star General: "If you want the job done right, go talk to Cole" (Im a civilian, but work for the Air Force under a contract with Boeing.)

The VP, if he just does what the CoL says, is a meaningless position with an active president. The way that some Vice Presidents have been able to counter that is by taking on other roles around the forum as part of their VP job, which I think is a fine practice, and haven't seen it hurting any canidates yet.

Couldn't agree more.

And ada, are you going to continue the directory next term? I have some ideas to help you...Ill PM you if you are still doing it.

[adaMada]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
If I had known people were still reading, I may have held off a bit longer...oh well.

I hope the Arnelos will continue to address the issues, however. Compiling orders can be a great help, but maybe there is another way as well, I don't know

ada...

This is, perhaps, the second greatest compliment anyone has ever given me. The first was what my boss said to a 3 Star General: "If you want the job done right, go talk to Cole" (Im a civilian, but work for the Air Force under a contract with Boeing.)

Couldn't agree more.

And ada, are you going to continue the directory next term? I have some ideas to help you...Ill PM you if you are still doing it.

I guess when compeating against a Three Star General, that's not all that bad .

I was about to post about the Directory. Here's what I'm thinking.

First, the directory's way out of date now, which really isn't acceptable to me but I can't do much about it today. I'll probably let it dangle for another day and then get all the essentials in over the weekend, since I'm not sure if I could do it today without messing things up even more (at least I know for now when I need to search back to...)

On the Directory in general:
I picked it up last term so it wouldn't get dropped. With the exception of the first week (when I wanted to redo the format to incorperate a few new ideas) and this week (which has been nasty for everything, not just this) it hasn't been a huge burdon, and I'll happily do it again. Having said that, if you (UnOrthO) want to pick it back up, or the VP/Pres. wants to pull that back into his department, or someone else really wants to do it, I'm very willing to talk it over . We could do a minister system, I guess, but I'd personally rather wait for another month and see if the Con Con doesn't move fast enough to make us redo the system once all the Ministers are rearranged. None of the Ministers seem to be jumping at the idea of doing their own section either (if any are, then I could give them the format and they could do that one section...)

As for your new ideas -- please, PM 'em .

-- adaMada

[GhengisFarb™]

I OFFICIALLY RENAME THIS THREAD "WAR & PEACE"
I coulda read the Bible in the same amount of time........

all the way through...............

both testaments...........

[Arnelos]

@ GhengisFarb

I just got home from various junk today, though everyone's schedules are all over the place due to this stupid serial killer mess (with just about anything outdoors being cancelled, this creates serious problems several weeks before a congressional election). I sure as hell hope they catch this idiot soon...

Thanks to UnOrthOdOx - I had a constant suspicion that you were in the race merely to get a rise out of me, but to be honest, by yesterday evening I figured you'd been in the race long enough that you couldn't possibly just be in it to mess with me So you waited just long enough for me to be convinced you were serious before giving it up... scoundrel

Thanks, again.

I have to run to church (evening meetings... fun... ). I haven't played a single-player computer game in over a week... so I think (when I get back tonight) I'm going to sit myself in front of a game of Civ3 on chieftan level just so I can have some amazingly easy fun with the AI this evening

I'll probably post about adaMada's stuff sometime tomorrow

[adaMada]

Originally posted by Arnelos
I'll probably post about adaMada's stuff sometime tomorrow

How do I get myself into stuff like this ...

-- adaMada

[UnOrthOdOx]

Seriously, Arnelos, do not stop preparing. What are your opinions on HOW exactly to organize the chats and Threads (protocol, I believe, is the word you used).

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by adaMada

UnOrthO's compiled orders ruled. They made things a lot easier. It was my understanding that MWIA loved them too, and I liked how it seemed to speed turnchats up (though I bet it made it harder for those who wanted to play along, it was a lot easier for me personally that way). As to why they're not being done this term -- no one seems to have the time. Just FYI, Arnelos -- I think you'll probably find them useful as well if you see them in action for a bit.

Ok, I'd highly appreciate getting a template of the format Unortho used once-upon-a-time... that way I can look it over and see what I might want to do with it. I can understand how time could be a leading factor in why it isn't currently being used... I have more time than most, so it's possible I can do this... but I'll want to look it over and see if there's any way I can alter it before I know for sure what I'd want to do. Thanks.

*snip*

Can't really comment on that, since I'm still not sure that it's a tactic in this case. It might have these effects -- again, I've never thought about it this way -- but I don't think it's intended too, or even has had these effects -- Apoc toned down the VP role when he took the job, and had no trouble. If UnOrthO wants to expand the VP's responsibliities for his term then I think that's fine -- it's his way of taking on the VP role, which doesn't have much in it by the CoL, and expanding upon it.

The irony here is that if UnOrthOdOx were actually running for the office rather than attempting to induce me into making additional promises regarding my own campaign for the office, it would be easier to dismiss this style as merely his natural method of running for office w/o any cold calculating behind it - a style which I have typically shared myself... Indeed, my use of the term "tactic" was admittedly, in part, out of the knowledge that "tactic" has more connotative punch than "style", though either could be used in the absense of knowledge of intent... Admittedly, it might have been more fair to use the term "style" than "tactic" because it wasn't apparent that what was being done was due to cold calculation rather than inherent tendency/style/personality... but in a competitive election, there's an understandable tendency to term things in connotatively "punchy" ways. As the clique goes, "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen".

Oddly, the fact that UnOrthOdOx wasn't actually running for the office makes it more apparent that what he was doing was being done to elicit additional promises and material from myself... exactly as I asserted. The irony centers on the fact that I didn't (and couldn't) know this while he was doing it, but I portrayed it as though it was a calculated move anyhow...

I was just trying to skewer my opponent on the weakest point of his otherwise strong argument and I chose to word my attack in provocative terms... it was really luck that part of the connotation might actually have been more accurate than I could have possibly known for sure. That said, I still assert that I was hitting his argument at its verifyable weakpoint - that it was straying away from the primary responsibilities of VP to various potential "auxilliary responsibilities" - an entirely fair criticism. If he had actually been running (as I had to believe he was), I was completely within my rights to point out that he seemed to be avoiding (purposely or otherwise) the core issues in favor of auxiliary ones.

I understand your arguement, but would have to disagree in this case. To be honest, the VP job description just doesn't give him much to do (except in emergencies). The VP, if he just does what the CoL says, is a meaningless position with an active president. The way that some Vice Presidents have been able to counter that is by taking on other roles around the forum as part of their VP job, which I think is a fine practice, and haven't seen it hurting any canidates yet.

As I argued, being Vice President should not prevent someone from being an active Apolytonian citizen. The central point of my argument, however, is that

The central point of my argument is that while many VPs have gone well beyond the role of VP while they were VP, what they were doing beyond the role was not then part of the VP role because the VP was doing it. Not all innovations started by the person in the office of Vice President at the time of the innovoation are therefore "Vice Presidential innovoations"... they are rather the VP continuing to act as an active citizen in Apolytonia, as they should. The argument I made, and still assert, is that anyone could have done many of these things or could continue them in the future... there's nothing special about being Vice President that lets them suggest most of those things and prevents others from doing so. Your own work on the directory should be a case in point

As for me, I fully intend to continue to be an active citizen when I am Vice President, but I don't look at my continued active service as a citizen to be part of my role as VP. This might end up being little more than a difference in how Unortho or I define exactly the same workload and therefore an entirely esoteric argument, but then again it might still be important to define it that way.... as I argued, I don't want to give people the impression that everything I do while I am VP is therefore what I'm doing as VP. To me, at least, that's an important distinction to create (though others are welcome to argue this is merely definitional... a rather pointless difference).


* huge snipping... (the above argument covers your responses to whole lot of what follows...)

Actually, I'd say most of UnOrthO's Vice Presidental innovations do further this goal. His chat order compilation assists the President; though it is not explicitly stated, his directory and CoL rewriting project would assist the people, who (in my opinion) he does serve (though not by his job description).

I'd snip this as well, but it's exactly what I'm trying to point out... Notice how you refer to things as "Vice Presidential innovotions" which I assume includes things that are no longer being handled by the Vice President. They are UnOrthOdOx's innovations, yes, but they are not therefore automatically "Vice Presidential". I'll remain an active citizen when I'm VP, but a lot of what I might suggest to change (even if based upon my experience as VP) may not always be fair to characterize as "Vice Presidential".... as I've said, this entire difference in interpretation could be viewed as entirely pointless, but anyone thinking so can just skip reading all of this (and they probably did that a long time ago ).

I'd be willing to see some more structure in turnchats, though I think it's generally not needed -- we've seen one or two that have really needed it, but many that haven't.

Having said that, by your strict definition of what falls under the VP's job and what doesn't, wouldn't this be a doesn't? The CoL doesn't require that the VP innovate in that field... of course, I'm happy that it's getting discussion, and I want a VP that will be innovative and try new things, but I thought I'd point what I consider an inconsistancy out.

I was thinking of exactly that issue when I wrote it, actually It's a suggestion based upon my experience as a citizen and one I could very well suggest now rather than having to run for VP. To be fair, I'm not even the source of the suggestion, it's one I picked up from other people at the recent turnchats. I suppose the critical difference is that the two executives are in the unique position to implement changes to protocol for the turnchats... I could create a newbie FAQ as a citizen, Unortho could help with the directory as a citizen, or help with the CoL as a citizen... but I can only directly implement turnchat protocols if I'm ever in charge of a turnchat Even that, however, is really a presidential responsibility rather than a VP one... so, in that regard, my status is (or at least should be) little different from any citizen in that I'd simply be making suggestions to the president. So your criticism is fair enough

* a lot of snipping (stuff you agree with me on)

I like the idea of having the VP coordinate between ministers -- I've always felt it was an executive power, and considered proposing that the Con Con explicitly write it into the CoL (not saying that the Con Con has or hasn't, just saying I considered proposing it before the Con Con had gotten started ). I'd really like to see the VP canidate take an active role in this area.

Yeah, this is actually something that I'd have to discuss more with whomever becomes Prez... Coordinating with the ministers should be something of a team project for both Prez and VP (and let us not forget the entire cabinet, too). Once we have a cabinet, we can start talking as a cabinet more indepth about stuff like this. That said, I'll need to talk most with the Prez about it.

...I do respectfully disagree with Arnelos's analysis and thoughts on what are potential jobs appropriate for the VP and what aren't. We may have to agree to disagree on this issue, and who knows -- maybe I'll eventually be brought around to your way of thinking, or you'll come to mine.

-- adaMada

As I've argued, a lot of the "disagreement" is definitional, not substantive. That said, however, under my definition a VP could perform strictly the reponsibilities laid out under the CoL and still be said to have "done the job". That said, I also believe the VP should ideally be an active citizen, something I am fully willing and able to do. People like active citizens as their officers, I just happen to believe that the specific nature of their activity (as long as it exists) beyond the job description is pertinent to the job description itself. Technically, even someone who did nothing beyond the job description would still be "doing the job" as long as they met at least that, but that's a far cry from me. Rather, I'm a very active citizen arguing that my own high activity level is irrelevant to the job description - which, frankly, it is.

I think that basically wraps up much of this thread... you are probably the only (or one of the only) people still reading at this point and I'm VERY THANKFUL that you're still doing so... however, I honestly think this thread has hit the absolute limit of its lifespan...

We can continue discussing stuff like this, but we should do it in other threads if we really wany anyone to bother reading it... a larger portion of the people here likely aren't reading anything in this thread because...
well, because it's in this thread

[WhiteBandit]

Too bad Unortho is leaving, this was shaping up to be quite an exciting race! Arnelos will make a fine VP for whomever wins the election! (Cough)

Arnelos, how do you plan to work with the President? Do you plan to wait until asked to do something, or will you actively try to coordinate with the President and schedule turn chats on your own as well?

[Arnelos]

I'm obviously going to have to clarify that last post, as it has been interpreted as an insult to Unortho...

First, I honestly apologize if anyone feels it was insulting... it was not intended as such.
I can't control how everyone interprets everythingI say or write and much of what anyone says or writes is open to multiple interpretations, but I feel an obligation to apologize and clarify to anyone who seems to have read it in a particularly different way than intended.

With this latest post, I was attempting to point out exactly what I was thanking Unortho for... if the wording is seen as insulting, I honestly apologize. If Unortho hadn't entered the race with the intent to force me to think more critically about my own candidacy, whether I really should be running for it, and force me to elaborate what I might do, I would not be as prepared as I am for the office. That is exactly what I was thanking Unortho for...

As I see it, getting me to "elicit promises" was precisely what I was thanking him for... I'm sorry if I worded that wrong. I wouldn't be a better candidate if he hadn't done that... it's not meant to insult him at all... I'm really sorry if anyone feels that way.

I did not mean to portray Unortho as a villain at all, but rather as someone who was working to force me to clarify my own position... I thought that was what I was saying and how people would read it... but obviously that's not how some read it, so my apologies again.

I honestly believe (even worded the way I worded it) that what Unortho was doing was not even remotely "villainous", but rather the height of civic responsibility... that he might have used deception (running in the race w/o actually intending to run in the race) to do this is comendable in this case, not wrong... My obvious mistake was to assume that others would read my attempt to express that the same way I read it. I thought that's what I was saying... I'm really sorry if it didn't come out that way...

I would ask that people please try to understand that it was not my intention to insult Unortho with this latest post...

[DAVOUT]

Arnelos,

I can assure you that an attentive reading of this thread did not let me think anything like that. This is probably an ultimate expression of the shadow culture you have already met.

Business discussions shoud never be taken personally.