How do I not be an evil warmonger?

Dis · October 10, 2002, 03:19

I can't help it. I like smashing other civs on my continent. People say I should keep other civs around for techs and such, but I have no patience for other civs on my continent. I get all the ancient techs I can before I attack them of course. but my current game the zulus had no techs to sell me. What good are they? Why leave a worthless civ around when I can put those cities to better use.

I came with this thread because it seems some people play so peacefully as to not create great leaders. Interesting.

post your peaceful stategies here.

notyoueither · October 10, 2002, 04:13

Feel the hate. Enjoy the carnage. Join the dark side.

Prince · October 10, 2002, 10:33

Well you could always just get his cities through culture flips. Make sure your cities on his borders are really cool and you should have no problem

That way, you get his cities but you still keep the civ around for trade. Besides, tiny nations next to yours make your empire look much more impressive

Demerzel · October 10, 2002, 10:37

how to win peacefully by Demerzel.

1. take 6 AI civs
2. insert into mixing bowl.
3. grind up into little pieces with tanks & guns.
4. bake at gas mark 4 for several hours

and voila! you've got your cake and you can eat it. you are top dog, the rest are tiny city states and you can have a nice peaceful game!

miccofl · October 10, 2002, 11:30

Quote:

Originally posted by: Dissident
I like smashing other civs on my continent.

Why limit yourself? Smashing civs on other continents is fun too!

My strategy for achieving a lasting peace for the citizens of my civilization is to eliminate every other civ by whatever means necessary.

Edit: typo

ThaddeusAlexander · October 10, 2002, 11:51

Wow what great peaceful strategies so far !

Okay so you don't want to be a warmonger... well lets go through a few no-brainers first before we get to strategy.

1) Don't play a militaristic civ unless you think you're gonna defend a lot (ie, if you're one of those people who like to play a 16civ game on a standard map) and the cheap walls help you out. Otherwise, its a wasted trait.

2) Always build a settler before a swordsman. Make it a rule.

3) Aim for a peaceful victory type right from the start and plan everything you do around it. If you're playing for a cultural victory, you should play a religious civ and the build order for new cities should be worker->spearman->settler->temple ... If you aim for a diplomatic, drop the $$ you put on science research and give a few gold every other turn to civs around you and trade for science. Keep neighbours happy and DON'T GET IMPATIENT... DO THE DIPLOMACY! Lots of people ignore talking to other civs and get seriously burned in the end.

4) Don't declare war. Think about the figures. If you're in a Republic or Democracy which you should be in, then declaring war will not only cost you tons of cash supporting and building units instead of libraries, universities and wonders, but will also drop happiness and if you want a histographic victory, you need the celebrations! Its much cheaper to pay a civ a handful of gold a turn (proportionate to your date naturally) and get a resource than it will be to finance an entire army.

Okay so those SHOULD be no-brainers. Before I get in to any strategies, I just wanted to reply to Dissident's comment "Why leave a worthless civ around when I can put those cities to better use." Well the answer in my, a peace goer's mind, is simple; try to play the game a bit more like real life. The way the game was meant to be played. If you ruled a nation, would you be so quick to eliminate another off the earth? I've seen too many people in Civ games push the launch button on nukes way to fast just because they're good for what they want to do in the game and "who cares" because its just a game. Whats REALLY funny are people in the US going all "NO weapons of mass destruction"
(that is, for any nation EXCEPT the US) and then launching them in civ3... maybe its just a game, but its a good reflection of mentality. And I think, Dissident, thats the one thing you need to change in order to play a peaceful game

Not that I can honestly say I've always been a peace-goer, but still. Sometimes you're drawn in to a war so you need to be ready anyway.

Now for a few more interesting things to keep in mind.

1) You might think its a good idea to spam cities all over the world but its generally not the best idea in my mind. Use your capitol to build 2 cities and wait until those have 2 spearmen in them, at least one worker created from each city and a temple, and then use the 2 new cities to build settlers and spearmen escorts. Keep your cities close to reduce corruption, but do make the effort to get any luxuries you can. Use your capitol to build up a military... YOU NEED ONE!

IT costs money to keep a military active but your power is affected by how many up-to-date military units you own so you need 'em early on. I suggest chariots because you can upgrade them all the way to cavalry and you'll continue to look strong in the face of the AI. But now I'm getting ahead of myself so ...

2) Have a good military. Since you want to be on good terms with rival civs, you hafta let them know you mean business. If an AI thinks it can push you around, it will. Even if you're #1 in the world ranking, but have a small army, then you'll see all the weaker civs suddenly get annoyed at you and start demanding techs.... or, what you'll find a lot, they'll offer a world map and expect a world map and a tech. This is because they don't take you seriously until you have a sizable army. When you have spare time, instead of clicking that wealth button, build up a military and you'll find other civs becoming kinder to you.

3) As for following the tech tree... I always make the run for either the Republic or Monarchy right off the get-go (unless i don't start with bronze working). Why take monarchy over Republic? If you don't have lots of luxuries, then you might need military in your cities to keep people out of the unhappy... but don't rely on it for long because Republic is a far far better gov for a peacelover. The other bonus to Monarchy is one of my favorite wonders, the hanging gardens. However, if you run for this, then you'll be very far behind in the other tech you really need which is why the road to Republic is a far better one. You need writing for diplomatic agreements and embassies, courthouses to reduce corruption, and you're close to libraries which you definitely need and map making for trades. If you've got no cash and nothing to hide, why not give your maps as a gift? works for me....

4) In the middle ages you have to make the run for hte observatory right after you get feudalism. Forget everything else until you have the advance and your capitol is working on it. Upgrade your spearmen to pikemen to ward off attackers ... if you have lots of cash from the ancient times (selling resources and making trades like you AIM to do) this should be easy enough.

5) Usually, if you're going to win a cultural victory, it'll happen now in the industrial age. There isn't a lot you can build culture-wise but if your capitol is pumping out 60 to 100 culture a turn or more, you're in good shape.

You really have to play a strict peaceful game in order to really see the benifits. I'm not a mathematical player at all but playing a peaceful game is cheaper by far and it'll show so long as you stay true to the course!

Now to counter a few things that warmongers can't seem to get right...

"Why research a tech when I can put the cash in to an army and beat it out of another civ?"
Well first of all, that doesn't always work.. Secondly, I'd hate the be the warmonger who has to beat the technology of making tanks out of another civ who already has it. You're suddenly the annoying little kid on the block who wants bigger toys but doesn't want to get them by being good. Also, once PtW comes out, you can throw that RIGHT out the window because its not going to happen...

"A conquest victory is the easiest and fastest victory type to get"

if you play civ3 only to start playing and stop playing really quick with no challenge, then you're gonna start posting "Civ 3 sux @$$ because its boring" really soon, and NOBODY wants to read any more posts like that. And I've gotten a cultural victory the turn i entered the industrial age a few games ago. I played the Babylonians and founded only 3 cities apart from my capitol.. By the end of the Ancient times, I took over 6 cities through culture, and another 4 during the middle ages giving me the largest civ on my continent. Instead of spamming cities, concentrate on a few and make 'em worth it. It works. If you trade carefully then even with a small empire you can get the techs you need. Don't forget if you make the run for republic, then TRADE THE REPUBLIC! The more peace-keepers out there means the less civs that'll probably attack you. Even if a republic does attack you, they'll have a lot problems doing so. And since the Republic is a high end tech, you can easily get that Warrior Code and Iron working and maybe another tech or two and some maps you didn't bother with for it. Another bonus? Giving the Republic doesn't help them get to the middle ages and thus Knights

Maybe I should have put that up somwhere else in my post ... oh well

"The AI never does what I want it to ... they walk all over my civ (literally) and when I ask them to leave, they declare war on me. I'm foreced to war all the time so I might as well build a big army and stop them from attacking me before they do anyway"
This is sad. Firstly, like I said above, Build A Big Army! If you have the military to back up your words the AI most likely won't attack you. And do you really need to get your shorts in a wad because its moving a settler and spearman across your land? To grab those 4 free tiles beside your capitol and your other 3 major cities? A city that'll probably last 10 turns MAX before it becomes adsorbed in to your civilization? Where you can just Disband the city anyway? C'mon... its not worth it at all. If you see him moving an army then check if he's at war with anyone... if not, then he's probably going to attack someone and you don't want it to beyou. Build a line of troops and block him off and see what he does. He can't tell YOU to move your troops off your land

Of coruse, all this could be avoided if you're nice enough to the civ.

Here's another thing to keep in mind... HAVE 2 BEST FRIENDS

At least one on your own continent and preferably either next to you or surrounded by other rival civs. If someone does attack you, you need allies. One on your continent is a definite plus, especially if you're on both sides of the enemy... making the AI split his forces and maybe withdraw them from your land if he sees a threat near his capitol. Keep other civs close too.. There's nothing better than having a dumb civ declare war on you for something trivial like moving a settler across your lands and then you hit the diplomacy screeen and by the time you're done, you have 4 allies and you don't have to do a thing but defend and watch the dumb AI crumple. I love it

Okay well I have some other ideas and I'm sorry for posting a bunch of stuff that might be simple, common knowledge anyway ... but sometimes these are the easiest things to do AND forget and often, the most important.

Well I hafta split ...
Cheers!
~Thadalex

p.s. ... why not read my signature quote and take something from it as the last bit of advice from my post ..

ThaddeusAlexander · October 10, 2002, 11:56

Dissident,

I just read through my post and I think I made it sound like you were a nuke-happy american which I didn't mean to say at all ... sorry!

What i wanted to point out is you need to change the way you think about the game ... you need the anti-military mindset in order to want to pull off a peaceful victory and go non-military.

And yes, its a hard thing to do ... if you can't change your mentality a bit, then you're just not going to feel comfortable throughout the game playing it peaceful and you'll end up leaving it half way through. It happens to me if I try to play a militaristic game ... I just get bored moving troops around the map and I leave Civ3 for work or whatever, then come back and I just can't pick up that game again. Its not me so I don't feel inspired to play.

Cheers!
~Thadalex

Dis · October 10, 2002, 14:46

also I need these strategies for playing humans. Although I see no reason not to go around smashing other humans

. But I have to be cautious about that.

Thanks for the help

ThaddeusAlexander · October 10, 2002, 15:51

I have a strong feeling that when you play humans, there are a lot of things you can no longer do. Don't plan on playing a nukefest either ... not only will people be better equipped to deal with it, but chances are they won't want to play you again.

I personally plan on making a list of good and bad players... rate my opponents on sportsmanship and good humour and all around good people. I don't want to waste my time with people who are gonna go nutz with nukes just to piss people off.

Cheers
~Thadalex

Zachriel · October 10, 2002, 16:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Dissident
I can't help it. I like smashing other civs on my continent.

There is no reason to feel guilty about your greedy conquests. You just need to create a veneer of political correctness to cover your ruthless ambitions. Here are a few historical examples for your consideration:

http://www.zachriel.com/justification.htm

Colonel Kraken · October 10, 2002, 16:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Zachriel

There is no reason to feel guilty about your greedy conquests. You just need to create a veneer of political correctness to cover your ruthless ambitions. Here are a few historical examples for your consideration:

Totally funny, Zach, and completely appropriate. I'm typically a peaceful player as well, though. I agree with you, Thaddeus, having friendly, good-humored, sportsman players to play with is much more enjoyable and satisfying than those who think only KKND, "Kill, Krush, and Destroy".

Athitis · October 10, 2002, 16:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Zachriel

There is no reason to feel guilty about your greedy conquests. You just need to create a veneer of political correctness to cover your ruthless ambitions. Here are a few historical examples for your consideration:

http://www.zachriel.com/justification.htm

Julius Ceaser: 'Cause Cleopartra asked for it! ever noticed her smiling?

Cleopatra: I need more slaves to build my tomb.

Alexander: I bet with Aristotle 1 gold piece I could conquer the world.

Xerxes: Don't take me wrong; It's only bussinnes I meant no offense.

Hammourabi: We wouldn't attack u, but we still haven't discovered how to make video games.

HazieDaVampire · October 10, 2002, 18:06

Quote:

Originally posted by miccofl

Why limit yourself? Smashing civs on other continents is fun too!

My strategy for achieving a lasting peace for the citizens of my civilization is to eliminate every other civ by whatever means necessary.

Edit: typo

I like doing the same here, infact my current game is my first game with another cvictory condition on! I tend to try andk ill everything, now i'm gunna launch spaceship, then kill everything with nuclear missles!

Ulimate pleasure!...
...cept for women, mars bars, and women with marsbars!

EDIT: Better joke!

Ethelred · October 10, 2002, 18:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Zachriel

There is no reason to feel guilty about your greedy conquests. You just need to create a veneer of political correctness to cover your ruthless ambitions. Here are a few historical examples for your consideration:

http://www.zachriel.com/justification.htm

How could you leave out the Aztecs?

Montezuma.

We must have at least one of your people a day to sacrifice to ensure that the Sun will truly come up tommorow. We wouldn't want to disapoint Little Orphan Annie.

Random Passerby · October 10, 2002, 19:55

I dunno. I just find rolling conquest boring. A real war, where both sides are desperately struggling for survival, sure, those I like to play. But building 800 modern armor and conquering the world in 20 turns? Snore. In general, I leave most of the AIs alone and let them build up until there are plenty of world powers aligning themselves into 2 or 3 prevailing alliance groups, so that if war does break out it'll be a nice proper world war rather than some ridiculous annihilation romp.

ThaddeusAlexander · October 10, 2002, 20:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Random Passerby
I dunno. I just find rolling conquest boring. A real war, where both sides are desperately struggling for survival, sure, those I like to play. But building 800 modern armor and conquering the world in 20 turns? Snore. In general, I leave most of the AIs alone and let them build up until there are plenty of world powers aligning themselves into 2 or 3 prevailing alliance groups, so that if war does break out it'll be a nice proper world war rather than some ridiculous annihilation romp.

I have to agree totally.

Also, this is suppose to be a post on ways to NOT be a warmonger ... am I the only person who helped out here?

C'mon guys. If someone posts the question "How do I not be an evil warmonger?" then i think flooding this place with "yeah kicking ass rocks" and "conquest is the best" replies doesn't really help any at all...

Cheers
~Thadalex

vmxa1 · October 10, 2002, 20:33

There are too many war mongers here, that is why not much help was given, we don't know how to not make war. Simlies here..

Ethelred · October 10, 2002, 20:49

How not to be a warmonger. By Ethelred Hardrede.

Don't start wars.

Its that simple.

-------

Oh so you,ThaddeusAlexander, want someone to help him learn how to play successfully as a Builder then. Thats different from not being a warmonger.

Don't play on Deity. I found it hard enough to win as a builder on Emperor.

REX you must Rex if you are going to expand through warmongering. Since most of your cities will be built by you there is no choice in this. You will need to approach the optimum number of cities to do well. Notice how you haven't seen any threads on One City Challenges since the first patches came out. You can't do it by rapacious trading only anymore. You must produce and you must research. That requires a fair number of cities. The higher the level you play on the more cities you are going to need to make up for the AIs discounts.

Do not disable the peaceful wins. This should be obvious but it is possible to win by domination or score without actually warmongering. All you have to do is take advantage of the AI when THEY start a war. There is no dishonour in wiping out your enemy even as a builder. I call this Builder-Oportunist to distinguish it from an attempt to win without a war of any kind, something that is not soley up to you so you can't force a peaceful game. However if you are honest, keep your aggreements and don't warmonger the AI will normally behave more like that or at least it did so prior to 1.29f.

Trade with the AI. They like that. Do not horde your resources or your tech. One of the reasons an AI civ will start a war is the same as many warmongers will pick a particular target. The other civ has something you or they want and are not willing to trade for a reasonable rate. Many is the time an AI civ has been annoyed with me and trading one tech will make them happy. Even Bismark can become happy that way although you shouldn't count on his staying peacefull.

Make MPPs with the other civs. They like it when you do so and it can give you an excuse to wage a war without being a warmonger. Even if you don't need more territory it will give the opportunity to prune the more sucsessful civs. The judicous use of bombarment can make land taken by your allies worthless for long periods of time. So help your allies by destroying the enemy roads and mines so the enemy will no longer have the capacity to produce defensive units. You need not of course do this to territory that you chose to liberate from the evil warmongering enemy. This too is well within moral behaviour for a builder-opportunist.

Research the important lines. Shooting straight for Cavalry may sound like something only for warmongering but a builder can use it to make good trades and it never hurts to have a rapid defense force before anyone else does. The Theory of Evolution - Hoover Dam line is pretty much vital on Emperor especially as a builder. If you don't get that you will have little chance of getting the tech and production lead you will need to win the game as a builder.

You can't depend on Great Leaders so you must have the production lead. The AI doesn't like to build factories till they have the anti-pollution techs so they are the key to this. Don't research Nationalism. Go for steam power then industrialization then the Hoover Dam line. Good for warmongers as well of course but vital for a builder.

In the Modern Age I go straight for Computers as a builder. This will allow you to maintain the advantage gained by the TOE-Hoover manuever. The next depends on whether you want the crappy Diplomatic victory. You will want to get the UN either way so you can control the vote and be one of the candidates since as a builder you are not all that likely to be the biggest power in the game. To me the proper builder win is the Space Race. It possible to finish the last Space Race tech and launch on the same turn by prebuiding something so as soon as you get Lasers you can switch to and finish the Party Lounge. I have won the game that way when one of the AI civs had 9 of the 10 components and was very few turns away from the win. That was an iteresting win to beat India from behind with less cities.

This on topic post number 1000, no spamfest to reach King for me thank you. Where is Coracle when I needed him? Replying to his nonsense is what got me to Prince.

ThaddeusAlexander · October 10, 2002, 21:07

I'm not the one who needs help here ... I think I've won by conquest a good .. ummm zero times since Civ3 came out although I did go to war a lot a few games to get a domination victory (and a diplomatic one as well).

I thank you however for lending more help to Demerzel who this thread was suppose to help.

Cheers
~Thadalex

Ethelred · October 10, 2002, 21:12

Thadeus, look again near the start of my post.

Quote:

Oh so you,ThaddeusAlexander, want someone to help him

help him not you.

What a come down from post 1000.

ThaddeusAlexander · October 10, 2002, 22:32

Okay me speak bad no

See I read it that you were going to help me explain to him which I thanked you for. What I was commenting about was how other seem to all be warmongers around here.

Oh well ... it doesn't matter now we're almost spamming messages here so I vote to drop it

Cheers
~Thadalex

Tuberski · October 10, 2002, 22:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Ethelred
This on topic post number 1000, no spamfest to reach King for me thank you. Where is Coracle when I needed him? Replying to his nonsense is what got me to Prince.

Responding to Coracle probably gave me 75 or so on topic, non spam posts.

There is spam and then there is SPAM.

Everything else you say I would agree with, I have turned to the dark side and become an early warmonger, but used to be a builder, and I still am later in the game.

Late game I try to outbuild the opponents I knocked down at the beginning.

SpencerH · October 11, 2002, 10:00

What hasnt been mentioned is why to not be a warmonger.............. cos combat in Civ3 sucks. Fight wars when you have to (of course), but IMO it takes more skill to beat the AI without conquest than with it. MP will be a different ball of wax.

SpencerH · October 11, 2002, 10:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Ethelred

This on topic post number 1000, no spamfest to reach King for me thank you. Where is Coracle when I needed him? Replying to his nonsense is what got me to Prince.

E, if you could reduce the length of your posts you'd probably be an emperor by now

Arrian · October 11, 2002, 10:34

The major dangers of playing "builder" style:

1) AI attack
2) AI beats you to wonders/tech
3) No GLs
4) Smallish empire w/only a few luxuries

There are ways of dealing with each of these. The best way to deal with #1, in my opinion, is to have a good-sized mobile force of attack troops at the ready, so that if you are attacked, you can hurt your attacker badly within a short time frame, and get the hell out of the war. There really isn't much counter to #2, but playing an industrious civ will help with your early development/production and thus wonder building, and playing a scientific civ will help with science (so will playing a religious civ, actually). There ain't nothin' you can do about #3, 'cause you're hoping NOT to fight. #4 is the kicker. You will not be expanding much beyond what your REX phase gives you. Some culture flips and perhaps a couple of cities captured in counterattacks, but not whole empires. Therefore you must be an astute trader and micromanager. You must keep your reputation spotless (which can be hard, since it can be sullied through no fault of your own). If you do have to fight, aim for the enemy's luxuries. They are the most valueable thing in the game.

-Arrian

Zachriel · October 11, 2002, 12:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
There are ways of dealing with each of these. The best way to deal with #1, in my opinion, is to have a good-sized mobile force of attack troops at the ready, so that if you are attacked, you can hurt your attacker badly within a short time frame, and get the hell out of the war.

I concur. Though we may not seek war, we must be prepared for war. If the enemy attacks, he must be made to pay. Either parry his attack and cause him to lose forces through attrition, or take the attack to his lands and destroy his ability to fight. Once he is subdued, return to your peaceful ways.

vmxa1 · October 11, 2002, 12:54

One of the things that I have seen in posted saves is how #4 leads to a killer AI that you can not defeat or will be very hard pressed to do so. It is one thing when they have 10 and you have 4 small cities, but when they have 80 and you have 30, you can expect they will have close to twice as many troops as you and will soon be looking for you.

ThaddeusAlexander · October 11, 2002, 13:07

Does nobody else aquire cities through culture here? The way I play I always grab at least 6 to 10 cities a game through cultural adsorbtion. I remember one of the funnest games I ever played was babs on monarch where I built only 4 cities and adsorbed about 14 by the end of the game (long after i'd already won a cultural victory for babylon's culture 20k+)

All you hafta do is be FAST early on to grab luxuries and trade for the ones you don't have ... and no GLs? Well that I hate but you can live with. If you play the AI, it seems they much prefer to build armies anyway ... i've played against an AI that had 6 armies on the field, and they didn't finish a single wonder the entire game... smal wonders i can't vouch for however, but that had no impact on me whatsoever.

So don't feel you're gonna have a small empire with no resources, luxuries or whatever else just because you don't kick @$$ to get them... there are many, many more ways of getting what you want and winning the game that are far more intricate, involved, interesting and stimulating that building a crapload of cavalry and unloading them all in a city, taking it, and razing those around it for fear of the city being reabsorbed.

Hope to see you in civ heaven, not civ hell

Cheers
~Thadalex

ThaddeusAlexander · October 11, 2002, 13:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Zachriel
I concur. Though we may not seek war, we must be prepared for war. If the enemy attacks, he must be made to pay. Either parry his attack and cause him to lose forces through attrition, or take the attack to his lands and destroy his ability to fight. Once he is subdued, return to your peaceful ways.

I agree with this totally. If you don't have a good military, then nomatter how much better you are than the AI in everything else, they'll walk ALL OVER YOU. Ask them to leave your lands? They'll just declare war on you and as a peacekeeper, you don't want that.

The best thing any peacekeeper can do? Build nukes but never use them... its simple!

Cheers
~Thadalex

dworkin · October 11, 2002, 14:57

Cannot one be a good warmonger? Helping out poor benighted civilisations from their evil neighbours. Punish the guilty and culture flip the innocent.

Just think of it as the 'Human Player's Burden' to bring civilisation to the AI savage.