research

ruitodobom · October 13, 2002, 14:55

I was going to post this on the Moo3 Official forums, but it's hard to acess them....

I've read several stuff about research, and some got me confused. For example

1- we'll be able to research all tech, sooner or later, like other civ games

2- the tech is suposed to be random, so you can't "aim" for a particular tech

Now... how can these 2 work out together? Or have I read something wrong? Is someone able to clear me out?

vmxa1 · October 13, 2002, 15:33

Rantz answered that question here, but I don't recall what thread and I did not pay any attention to the answer as I will wait for the game to find out.

moomin · October 13, 2002, 16:14

My main beef with research in any 4x game was that it was all know. Even in Moo, you knew what existed in the game and how useful it would be - just not if it existed as a choice in this particular game.

I'm still looking for a game where techs you are researching for will be real unknowns in every game. Moo3 won't be it, I understand.

SeanV · October 13, 2002, 18:18

To answer your question ruitodobom:

I believe the tech system will operate like the original MOO system.
If you haven't ever played it, it works something like this: There is a tech tree and when a new game is generated techs get picked randomly and are put into a smaller tech tree that you actually research that game. Thus you don't research the same thing every game and you can't just race up the tree and get the super-destructo ray because the thing won't (might) not be there!

P.S. Moomin: How in the world could anyone manage to do that?
Just wondering.

Bleyn · October 13, 2002, 19:46

Quote:

Originally posted by SeanV
To answer your question ruitodobom:

I believe the tech system will operate like the original MOO system.
If you haven't ever played it, it works something like this: There is a tech tree and when a new game is generated techs get picked randomly and are put into a smaller tech tree that you actually research that game. Thus you don't research the same thing every game and you can't just race up the tree and get the super-destructo ray because the thing won't (might) not be there!

P.S. Moomin: How in the world could anyone manage to do that?
Just wondering.

Two things. A slight clarification, and a comment.

First, the clarification. IIRC, the original MOO research system was set up so that the tech trees that each race saw in a game were different. So it was possible to pick up techs you never got a chance to research from other empires by one means or another. I liked this and hope its in Moo3.

Second, a comment. While I would agree that it would be rather difficult to fully implement Moomin's idea for a research system, I think a slightly scaled back version that could help a 4x game stay interesting is possible. This could be done by having the tech tree knowable, and the general results knowable, but the exact specifics randomized from game to game.

Ie. In terms of a space-based 4x game, one might know that researching the 4th-generation shield tech will give one 4th generation shields, but the exact cost, size, and damage protection level would be randomized within certain pre-set ranges. So, you'ld know in choosing to research the Shield 4 tech that it should be better than Shield 3, but you won't know how much better until you've researched it. It could even be set up with overlaps so that there is a chance that one or more aspect of a tech is slightly worse than the tech just below it.

Done this way, I suspect ones research choices might not be quite so automatic as it typically is.

Straybow · October 14, 2002, 02:34

I had proposed a fuzzy-numbers idea way back when QS first opened a forum on Delphi boards. It won't be in this game. But it is a good idea, IMNSHO.

moomin · October 14, 2002, 03:14

I'm with the fuzzy numbers. I also think a theory/practice breakdown would be interesting and add to strategy, but fuzzy numbers are the best thing. Add chopped tech tree's for every game and you're almost there.

ruitodobom · October 14, 2002, 20:29

Tnks for the tips!

Honestly, I'm very happy it's like Moo1 (I know it well), but I was in doubt due to the 2 phrases I heard. Like this we are obliged to make trade with other species!

I do hope we'll be able to see a bit into the future of the tech tree (say 2 or 3 advances) so we can define a bit the strategy to take....

Anguille2 · October 15, 2002, 10:10

[QUOTE] Originally posted by ruitodobom
I was going to post this on the Moo3 Official forums, but it's hard to acess them....

you're kidding....it's more than hard: now it is almost impossible!!!!

Llama · October 15, 2002, 10:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Bleyn

Two things. A slight clarification, and a comment.

First, the clarification. IIRC, the original MOO research system was set up so that the tech trees that each race saw in a game were different. So it was possible to pick up techs you never got a chance to research from other empires by one means or another. I liked this and hope its in Moo3.

Well, as far as we know, it's not going to be done quite like this.
1)All the tech's will be avaliable in each game.
2)Each tech has a primary pre-requisite (which is the same every game).
3)Each tech has a secondary (& possibly a tertiary) pre-req which will be in the same field each game, but the level will vary by, say, +- 10%.
4)Every race/empire can research every tech, but (I think) some races are better at research in certain fields (which may or may not be random each game), so it'll be a lot easier for some races to either trade or steal certain techs.
And how the actual research is done is a lot closer to MOO 'cause it uses sliders to control the amount of RP's you invest in a particular field/school/tech(I think).
And apparently in a "normal" game you're only likely to get through ~70% of the tech tree/wheel (assuming that you don't want to drag the game out to get the last few techs).

Ruitodobom: I don't think that we'll have to trade with the other races/empires, but it'll be a lot easier to get some tech's if we do.

Xentax · October 15, 2002, 11:18

As far as I know, even the primary field level requirement can/will vary slightly.

Things are a bit simpler than they used to be, but some techs have secondary field requirements, and some may still have tertiary requirements (at least some techs did in the original setup).

ruitodobom · October 15, 2002, 20:18

ok.... now I understand the meaning of "random tech" that was confusing me.

Still I must confess that maybe, just maybe, I prefer the moo1 or moo2 "not all tech avaliable system", but the fact we won't be able to pick EXACTLY the improvements I want also satisfies me. In moo2 I always go for the same stuff. In Moo3 it'll be harder to do so! At least I hope it will....

Grumbold · October 16, 2002, 07:01

I like the idea that you can research everything. It appeals to me that the laws of physics ought to be the same for everyone. That would not stop different races from having fields in which they excel that allow them to progress up the tech tree in different ways. The difficulty lies in making a much larger pool of potential technologies to research that remain balanced and useful when a significant number of them will not be used in many games.

I am a fan of the infinite tech tree too. There should never be an insurmountable barrier to progress in any field. The cost of research may become exponential and the gains may only be minor but it should never stop.

Glostakarov · October 16, 2002, 19:56

A variable tech tree could be done with a massive amount of technologies, only 25% of which your scientists will come up over the course of a game. The others they won't even think of, so you won't have a chance to research them. Of course you could still trade for them or steal them, but that would mean someone else made their 25% chance and had it.

Mahdimael · October 17, 2002, 17:38

I loved the random techs in MOO1. As I remember, you always got a certain number of the different types of techs, like missile jammers, shields, armor, etc. I always hoped to get the Black Hole Generator...that thing rocked.

It makes sense that you can't learn everything...different people approach things differently, and I'm sure aliens do as well.

Plus the system encouraged trade and spying, which was cool.

To me, MOO2 ruined the tech trees (especially with the "creative" bonus. Each level almost always had one very good tech and two less good ones.

Ah well. Just as long as I get the Black-Hole-Generator-Equivalent most of the time, I'll be good.

Urban Ranger · October 18, 2002, 05:23

Quote:

Originally posted by moomin
My main beef with research in any 4x game was that it was all know. Even in Moo, you knew what existed in the game and how useful it would be - just not if it existed as a choice in this particular game.

I'm still looking for a game where techs you are researching for will be real unknowns in every game. Moo3 won't be it, I understand.

Unfortunately, that will be the case for all the games. There aren't infinite number of techs, so over a number of games all the choices will be exhausted.

Urban Ranger · October 18, 2002, 05:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumbold
I like the idea that you can research everything. It appeals to me that the laws of physics ought to be the same for everyone.

Sure, the laws of physics are all the same, but techs are about how the laws are applied.

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumbold
The difficulty lies in making a much larger pool of potential technologies to research that remain balanced and useful when a significant number of them will not be used in many games.

It's really silly to have a large number of technologies while most of them are just evolutionary improvements, not revolutionary breakthroughs.

For example, in MoO, there are just a limited categories of weapons: projectiles, energy weapons, missiles, bombs, and torpedoes. Mass Driver is just an improved version of the Neutron Pallet Gun, for example.

So, as I posted on the Civ 3 forum a long time ago, a sensible approach might include these three phases: discovery, invention, improvement.

Discovery involves finding the underlying scientific principles, so it makes sense that all the races will be able to make all the discoveries available.

Invention is making devices based on certain scientific principles. This can be made random, with what I call "signular tech" as exceptions. As an example, Atmospheric Terraforming in MoO is a singular tech, because there is no other tech that does the same or similar thing. On the other hand, if you miss Shield III, there are always Shield IV, Shield V, etc. So all races must be able to invent these singular techs.

Improvement is making devices better: smaller, more powerful, etc.

The reason why improvements should be a separate research goal is players then are forced to make diffcult decisions. For example, should I continue to spend money on conventional processors to make them faster, or should I try to invent massively parallel computers?

Grumbold · October 18, 2002, 06:33

Thats intersting, because I would have pointed to Shields I-X and Warp Engines I-X as examples of improvements. I don't think it makes sense that a race can develop warp I and then be incapable of developing warp II or warp III before getting warp IV unless it is because they accidentally or deliberately avoided the precursor techs that would make II or III possible and those precursor techs are not needed for IV. If they don't get the opportunity to research shield II it means that there is some fundamental and permanent blind spot in their scientific knowledge.

I can't think of a single example in our history where that has happened or would be possible. Where a key technology has been undiscovered or ignored the civilisation has missed out on every further discovery in that field until confronted by a neighbour who possesses one. At that point they may be able to leap a gap and jump straight to the level their neighbour exhibits. I can think of the Egyptians adopting and improving chariots once they encountered the Hittites.

The closest I can come to your idea of missing techs is that 'Eureka' moment when someone suddenly realises that something may be possible. So perhaps researching shield III and physics III and engineering III does not automatically permit you to move to the next step and research shield IV although that is a permitted next move. Each race might have a 'eureka' threshold for each science, so a meklar might have 100% engineering aptitude, instantly seeing the next step in any engineering field. The Elerians might only have a 4% aptitude, meaning that it may take them many turns to even realise that something new could be researched in that area.

The Elerian can slowly equal the Meklar in engineering knowledge, but it is far more efficient for them to persue their own stronger fields and trade, steal or conquer to rectify their weak spots.

Llama · October 18, 2002, 08:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumbold
The Elerian can slowly equal the Meklar in engineering knowledge, but it is far more efficient for them to persue their own stronger fields and trade, steal or conquer to rectify their weak spots.

And that's basically what's happening (although we don't know if the racial/empire tech school aptitudes are hardcoded or random each game). The elerians would (eventually) be able to research everything the Meklars can in engineering, but it would take such a long time that it'd be far easier for them to trade/steal any important applications, which they would then be able to put in their ships/colonies immediately even if they haven't reached the required theory level to research it themselves.

Urban Ranger: That's funny, 'cause I would have described all of the eco-engineering techs like atmospheric terraforming (can't remember what the other ones were called) as improvements on the first eco tech, because they all basically do the same thing (increase the liveable area on a planet by X).

vmxa1 · October 18, 2002, 12:15

One way to see the reasonableness of skip shield IV and still getting VI, is with computers. Sometimes the next boost is just a bit faster and other times they come out with a x86 or a new architecture altogether. Tech is obtainable to other countries and they could jump in any place, or go in a new direction. Intel makes 1.7G, AMD may match it or jump past with a tweak or come out with a bigger jump by a new process and smaller chips or improved materials.
Urban, Pax2 has the concept of a research that is the fundamental knowledge that permits follow on techs.

Mahdimael · October 18, 2002, 12:57

I definitely can see how great jumps in technology can occur. For example, say you're talking about production. Going from a hand drill to a power drill would be an incremental improvement, while moving to mass production techniques (from older industrial techniques) would be a large jump. So it happens in real life.

The Rusty Gamer · October 26, 2002, 22:13

Me, I'm all for the idea of only researching some things after discovery or experimentation.

For an example of discovery, it appears silly that you can research barren planet colonisation/terraforming if you have never even encountered a barren planet. I say, only after you discover a new type of planet can then you then research colonisation/terraforming techniques for it. Perhaps you need to have a ship stay over the new type of planet and "scout" it for a while.

As an example of experimentation, perhaps you need to build a ship with a laser and fire it a few times before you are allowed to begin improving the laser. How can you improve something if you've never tested it?

Even further, it is perhaps only after encountering another race with a certain shield that you have never seen before that you can start to either research that shield or find a way to fire through it or start thinking about that new hull design. Perhaps you even need to capture the alien ship first.

This kind of thing would be more interesting that just abstract research that magically discovers things you have never had any experiential reality with.

vmxa1 · October 26, 2002, 22:29

One way is to observe the universe. You could have the means to detect a barren planet, with out visiting it. You could improve a laser without building a ship with one mounted. It could be tested in a lab, you could improve the laser from another field altogether. It very possible to concieve of something without ever having encountered it. It could all be done in computer modeling as we do today. We have designed theories for the universe that postulated things we could not detect or create at the time. Some we have since managed to prove.