200 Australians missing in Bali Blast

[Case]

Originally posted by Ned
Does Australia have the death penalty?

No.
Anyway, as the crime happened in Indonesia, anybody caught and put on trial for this will be subject to Indonesian, not Australian law

[Ned]

Why? This is not mere murder, but a crime against humanity and/or a war crime. Surely Australian nationals were a target of the crimes giving Australia jurisdiction to prosecute. if the Begians can prosecute Sharon in Belgium for war crimes committed in Lebanon against Palestinians, surely Australia can try al Qaida perps in Australia.

Of course, Indonesia should also have a shot, perhaps the first shot, at al conviction.

[Alexander's Horse]

The Indons have jurisdiction. We have an extradition treaty with them but the crimes weren't committed in Australia so we can't prosecute. Indonesia has the death penalty. I'm not sure if terrorist incidents like this fall under the definition of crime against humanity.

I doubt the Indons will bring any local masterminds to justice - maybe a few patsies. If they find local ring leaders its more likely the Indonesian military will just kill them quietly in case they talk about any separate links they may have to the Indon military - like over the recent fighting between muslims and christians in Ambon.

[Ned]

AH, will Australia join the Indonesian military on any assault on al Qaida bases in Indonesia? If I were your PM, I'd certainly want some payback.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Ned
AH, will Australia join the Indonesian military on any assault on al Qaida bases in Indonesia? If I were your PM, I'd certainly want some payback.

Well we're not into revenge.

And Al Qaida doesn't have bases in Indonesia as far as we know.

Indonesia is under pressure however to crack down on local groups that are sympathetic to terrorism and may have been involved.

[Lincoln]

"Well we're not into revenge."

Have you ever heard the difference between a liberal and a conservative? Clue: A conservative is a liberal who has just been mugged.

I am not sure but I would think that many of the people who were personally affected by this wouldn't object to a little well placed revenge.

[Boris Godunov]

Lincoln, you seem to be saying the conservative idea of justice is revenge.

That is shockingly un-Christian of you [insert Claude Raines voice here]. Revenge has no place in a fair justice system. Justice has nothing to do with revenge, or at least it shouldn't. Leave vengeance to the petty.

[Lincoln]

I think that revenge is part pf human nature. I try to resist the urge myself but I have noticed that it is a greater temptaion when one is personally effected. But you are right, it is un-Christian.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Lincoln
"Well we're not into revenge."

Have you ever heard the difference between a liberal and a conservative? Clue: A conservative is a liberal who has just been mugged.

I am not sure but I would think that many of the people who were personally affected by this wouldn't object to a little well placed revenge.

Well obviously I can't speak on behalf of the nation but the mood seems to be more sadness than anger and more a desire for justice rather than revenge. Though most people would doubt the perpetrators will ever be caught and punished.

Come to think of it, I haven't heard a single angry comment from either survivors or relatives, though I'm sure there's been some. Most people are just grieving, in shock and numb.

You see, the way most Australians see the rest of the world is it's totally screwed up and there's not a damn thing you can do about This attack just confirms that view.

[Lincoln]

It sounds like my kind of country.

[Docfeelgood]

Once the shock wears off then probably the anger will fill the void.




We tell our children that there is no such thing as monsters.

Only a monster could do such a thing.

We have a sniper going around shooting people.......or should say "monster" going around shooting people.

[Alexander's Horse]

The trouble is we're still in the middle of the emergency, there's over 180 bodies in the hospital morgue up there, which can't cope, and most of them can't be identified. There's over 200 Australians missing and a lot of local Balinese have also been killed or injured. There's a lot of sympathy here for the Balinese people. There's a close relationship. Balinese in the streets are apologising to Aussies and saying "please come back" They are probably more screwed than anyone by this.

[Docfeelgood]

like a ripple effect....... sorta lator it will "ripple" back to the people that did this crime.


I have allways believed in that saying " what comes around goes around".


Fate has a way of "getting even" even tho none is felt in the heart.

That is how I deal with it



Don't try

(Only a simple minded person like myself can understands any of what I just said)

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


Well we're not into revenge.

And Al Qaida doesn't have bases in Indonesia as far as we know.

Australian television showed video footage last night purporting to show an Al Qaeda training camp in Sulawesi- the usual paramilitary stuff, unarmed combat exercises, and so forth. Also, the Indonesian cleric being fingered as having links with the bombing says the bombings in Bali were down to the Americans, trying to convince the Indonesian government to crack down on his party and movement. It does seem as though this cleric has been enjoying some kind of protection through association with Indonesia's vice-president- who 'coincidentally' heads Indonesia's largest Muslim party...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/2014740.stm

[DanS]

Yes, here is a good artice on similar links...

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentSe...=1012571727092

Blaming the States for this is plain dumb. It screams "I am a terrorist."

[The Mad Monk]

Link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/16/in...ner=ALTAVISTA1

Thanks to Drudge for the link.

U.S. Says It Told Indonesia of Plot by Terror Group
By JANE PERLEZ and RAYMOND BONNER


AKARTA, Indonesia, Oct. 15 — The United States repeatedly warned the Indonesian government in the weeks before the bomb blast that killed more than 180 people in Bali that a group linked to Al Qaeda was planning attacks to kill Americans and other Westerners, Bush administration officials said today.
The American ambassador, Ralph C. Boyce, delivered the latest warning to President Megawati Sukarnoputri and her top advisers just a day before the bombing and gave her a deadline of Oct. 24 to act, the officials said.

The various warnings contained no details about where and when attacks might occur, they said. But Washington took the likelihood of an attack seriously, basing its judgment on Central Intelligence Agency questioning of a Qaeda operative, senior American officials said.

The operative, Omar al-Faruq, was detained in central Java in June and was turned over to the Americans but only started talking early in September.

American officials reacted to his warnings about terrorist actions by shutting their embassies in Jakarta and some other capitals around the anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks.

The officials said that because planning for attacks was made several months beforehand, Mr. Faruq had given what appeared to be credible information about assaults planned for Indonesia.

Indonesian officials had no comment tonight, but American officials said they had reacted before this weekend largely with demands for more concrete evidence of a terrorist plot and Qaeda activity. Since the weekend bombing, senior Indonesian officials have conceded for the first time that groups linked to Al Qaeda are active in their country, although President Megawati has not said so.

In its warnings to Indonesia, the United States said an attack would not necessarily have an official American site as its target, but perhaps one known to attract American civilians, a senior American official said.

"We told them: `Wrap it up. Block it. Demonstrate that you are serious about eliminating the threat against us,' " the official said, declining to be any more specific about what action was expected.

If the government did not act by the time President Megawati was to see Mr. Bush at a meeting in Mexico in late October, the Indonesian leader was told, the United States planned to send a public signal that Indonesia was a terrorist haven by ordering all but the most essential American diplomats home, the official said.

In the aftermath of the Bali bombing, that is now happening. About 350 Americans connected with the United States Embassy — about 100 diplomats and the families of all diplomats — were ordered to leave the country by Friday, a State Department officer said.

About 100 American diplomats are to remain at the embassy in downtown Jakarta, which is heavily guarded and surrounded by new concrete barricades. Ambassador Boyce told departing diplomats at an outdoor meeting in the embassy courtyard today that their return would depend entirely on Indonesian government action to decrease the threat to Americans here.

American officials voiced concern that even in the face of the Bali attack, President Megawati lacked the resolve to take action against militant Islamic groups. She heads the world's most populous Muslim country but has a famously passive style and has been reluctant to cross her vice president, Hamzah Haz, and other prominent supporters of the groups.

In an effort to embolden her, and to convince her ministers of the terrorist threat, the United States invited Indonesian intelligence and police officials to interview Mr. Faruq. They were still interviewing him on Saturday night when the attack occurred, two American officials said.

One of the best-known Islamic groups, Laskar Jihad, announced today that it was disbanding. In a statement, it declared that its work in the province of Maluku, where its fighters had clashed with Christians, was completed.

It is not clear what role, if any, was played by the Indonesian government, which had no comment on the statement. An American official said that it was not clear what Laskar Jihad's intentions were and that the announcement needed "more study."

U.S. Says It Told Indonesia of Plot by Terror Group
(Page 2 of 2)
The leader of Laskar Jihad, Jafar Umar Thalib, was arrested in the spring and is currently on trial on charges of inciting violence in Maluku. There has been considerable debate among Western intelligence officials about whether Laskar Jihad has been used as a front for Al Qaeda in Indonesia.

It is more important to the United States, American officials said, that Indonesia act to break up Jemaah Islamiyah, or Islamic Community, a group described in detail by Mr. Faruq.

In particular, Washington would like the government to arrest Abu Bakar Bashir, the group's leader and intellectual inspiration.

Jemaah Islamiyah has long advanced the idea of an Islamic state in Indonesia and other parts of Southeast Asia. A few years ago, according to Western and Asian intelligence officials, Jemaah Islamiyah developed links and pooled resources with Al Qaeda.

Mr. Bashir, 64, the principal of an Islamic boys' boarding school in central Java, was described by Mr. Faruq as providing money, explosives and operatives for several terrorist acts, including an plan to blow up the American embassies here and in Malaysia, the officials said.

Immediately after the Saturday night bombing, Mr. Bashir blamed the deaths on the "arrogance" of the United States. In an apparent taunt to the central authorities to arrest him, Mr. Bashir said today that he would travel to Jakarta Wednesday to appear in court in a defamation suit he has brought against Time magazine over a recent article about reported Qaeda activity in Indonesia.

At the scene of the Bali attack, criminal investigators, who include specialists from Australia and F.B.I. officials, found what could be a key piece of evidence, a Western security official said.

The engine block of a Kijang vehicle, a popular Indonesian-made car, was found among the debris, the official said.

The car was probably a rental vehicle, and if a serial number can be found on the engine block, the investigators will have a useful clue, the official said.

The explosion on Saturday night was caused by a car bomb using C4, a powerful plastic explosive that is manufactured in the United States and used by military forces around the world, he said. The C4 was used, he said, to set off a homemade bomb made of ammonium nitrate or TNT.

Work at the site of the bombing was made more difficult, officials familiar with the work said, because the wreckage was not properly cordoned off and experts found the ruins trampled — and evidence therefore destroyed — before they arrived.

So far, the Western security official said, it appears that a relatively small bomb went off in a bar near Sari's disco just moments before the huge explosion. About the same time, a man tried to hurl a bomb near the office of the honorary United States consul some miles away. The man ended up burning himself and may provide clues on the disco bombing, the security official said.

While Bush administration officials remain unconvinced that President Megawati will take serious action to reduce the terrorist threat, a leading Indonesian analyst said he believed that she would have no choice. "Maybe at last she might do it because her survival is at stake," said Yusuf Wanandi, the director of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, and a critic of President Megawati. "The economy will go down the drain if she does not act."

An estimated 40 million of Indonesia's 220 million people are unemployed. Foreign and domestic investment have fallen dramatically in the last year because of shaky security and are now expected to dry up.

The public in Indonesia, a vast majority of whom are moderate Muslims, has expressed shocked at the violence on Saturday. But there has also been widespread criticism of the United States.

Callers to a radio talk show on Monday said Americans must take the blame for the calamity, although by far most of the foreigners who died in the blaze were Australians, followed by Britons and Germans.

The American Embassy said today that it was believed that two Americans died in the explosion. Three Americans are missing.

President Megawati has remained largely silent since Saturday night. She is part Balinese and has visited the grisly scene in the town of Kuta, which she told aides she knew well.

But she declined to talk on television about the horrors of what she had seen or to galvanize a sense of outrage. She left it to her defense minister, Matori Abdul Jalil, to emerge from a cabinet meeting on Monday and declare for the first time that "Al Qaeda is here" in Indonesia.

[Alexander's Horse]

Well as I said on one day one, the most likely party to get a slap to start off with is the Australian Government a. for all its high profile bellicose talk and sabre rattling over Afghanistan and Iraq - which many Australians feared was just making us a target and b. for not passing on warnings about the danger of regional travel if these reports prove correct.

We don't rally around our leaders in times of crisis here, we give em a good kicking for getting us into this mess

[Darkness' Edge]

It's such a tragedy.
But I think it's going to galvanise our support for an attack on Iraq.

The pictures coming back are so shocking.
A girl in my group at school has a cousin confirmed dead and four missing.

[Alexander's Horse]

Unofficial list: dead and missing

16oct02
THIRTY Australians are confirmed dead, including:

New South Wales

Shane Foley, 34 (from the Coogee Beach Dolphins junior rugby league club), Adam Howard 26, (from Double Bay, member of the Dolphins),Josh Iliffe, 28 (from Kensington, member of the Dolphins), Dave Mavoudis, 29 (from Wagga Wagga, member of the Dolphins), Kathy Salvatori, 38 (from Malabar, wife of former rugby league international Craig), Clinton Thompson, 29 (from Griffith, member of the Dolphins), Jodie O'Shea, 29, Como.

South Australia

Josh Deegan (from Adelaide, a member of the SANFL club Sturt), Angela Golotta, 19 (from Adelaide who was on holidays with her parents)

Victoria

Marlene Whiteley, 42 (from Frankston)

Western Australia

Busselton high school teacher, no details available


State unknown

An injured person aboard an RAAF Hercules evacuation flight died en route to Darwin on Sunday night.

Another person died yesterday morning in Royal Darwin Hospital after being flown in from Bali.

A woman severely burnt in the Bali blasts died in a Perth hospital today.

MISSING

About 180 Australians remain unaccounted for including:

New South Wales

Renee Anderson, Sutherland Shire, Francoise Dehan, Sutherland Shire, Gayle Airlie, 46, Chifley, Steve Buchan and his wife Geraldine (from Chifley), Debbie Borgia, 44 and daughter Abbey, 13 (from Tempe), Chloe Byron, 15 (from Bondi), Paul Cronin, 31 (from the Forbes Platypii rugby union club), Francois Dahan, Caringbah

Michelle Dunlop, 30 (from Menai), Craig Jeffrey Dunn, 18 (from Ulladulla), James Hartman (from Sydney), Dimmy Kotronakis, 27 and sister Elizabeth (from Blacktown), Danny Lewis, 19 (from Ulladulla), Lyn McKeon and her daughter Marissa, 14 (from Kincumber), Brad Ridley, 32 (from the Forbes Platypii Club), Greg Sanderson, 24 (from the Platypii club), Cathy Seelin, (from Malabar)

Jodie Wallace, 29 (from Gymea), Shane Walsh-Tills, 32 (from Leeton in the Riverina), Robyn Webster, Marrickville, Charmaine Whitton, NSW, Gerard Yeo, 20 (from the Coogee Dolphins football club), Luisa Zervos, Marrickville Billy Hardy, 20 (from Tweed Heads, member of Southport Sharks football team).

South Australia

Bob Marshall (from Sturt Football Club).

Victoria

Francis Anthony Cachia, 33 (from Reservoir), Rebecca Cartledge, 20 (from Melbourne), Jarrod Game (from Melbourne), Stacey Lee, 30, her husband Justin Lee, 31 and Aaron Lee (all from Geelong), Jessica O'Donnell, 21 (from Melbourne), Bronwyn Ross, 32 (from Melbourne), Anthony Stewart, 29, (Werribee).

Western Australia

Matthew Bolwerk (from Secret Harbour, south of Perth), Jenny and Jane Corteen, 39 (twins from Perth), Dean Gallagher, 19 (from Perth, member of Kingsley football club), Bryan Hancock, 22 (from Perth, member of Kingsley football club), Nicole Harrison, 29 (from Mandurah, south of Perth).


Corey Paltridge, 20 (from Perth, member of Kingsley football club), David Ross, 20 (from Perth, member of Kingsley football club), Jason Stokes, 31 (from Perth, member of Kingsley football club), Jonathon Wade (from Perth, member of Kingsley football club).


Tasmania

Tim Hawkins, 28 (from Hobart, a former Australian rower and brother of Olympic gold medallist Stephen Hawkins)

Queensland

Robert Thwaites, 24 (from the Gold Coast)

State unknown

Geoff Allison, Dennis Arcuris, Steve Beckervich, Jason Biggs, Christina Betmilik, Marni Colquhoun, 27, Sylvia Dalais, 55, Steve Forks Detland, Andrew Dobson, 40, Carol Johnstone, 35, David Layford, Scott Lysaght, 34, Jamie Mail, Brett Reitley, Lee Sexton, 46, Julie Stephens, Bethnic Summer, Benet Summer, Adam Wine.

A small number of Australian Defence Force members who were on leave in Bali are also listed as missing


Nationality unknown:

Belinda Allen, Mike Arnold, Tim Arnold, Peter Basio, 44, Phil Bolten, Matthew Bolweek, Neil Bowler, Anthony Calehia, Bronwyn Cartwright, Andy Cook, Donna Croxford, Kristen Curnow, Nana Dejong, Pascal M Dolf, Renee Fowler.

Emma Fox, Laura France, Angela Graham, 28, Craig Hardy, Jane Jared, Cedem Kt, Devendort Lewis, Linda Makwana, Suehel Mechraoi, Sue Meloney, Aris Muranbar, Amber O'Donnell, Suzanna Ogier, Dimitris Panagoulis, Natalie Perkins, Cilia Roeil, Quinton Safing, Nathan Swaine, Alexandre Wataki, Marlene Whitely, Roger Williams, Sharmain Withlon, Adam Wright

Okay this is getting close to home now - Jodie Wallace and , 29 (from Gymea) and Charmaine Whitton, both listed as missing, went to school with my baby sister

They spoke to my Mum only a couple of weeks ago at the local shopping mall. They told her they were Bali for one last Girl's holiday before one of them, I don't know which, was getting married

Dad said their fathers had just flown up to Bali to try and find them I told Dad there was little hope.

There's also a lot of other people from where I grew up in the list

[Bereta_Eder]

So many Greek names...
A tragedy for all no doubt.


BTW Australia was listed as a high target from very early on by Al Qaeda but most dismissed it at that time.

[Lincoln]

"Balinese in the streets are apologising to Aussies and saying "please come back" They are probably more screwed than anyone by this."

That brought tears to my eyes Horse. It is always the innocent who suffer. I hope that Australians go back to Bali in droves as if nothing happened. I may even divert my next trip to Thailand just as a show of support for the people of Indonisia who despise this type of thing along with the rest of the civilized world.

One way to fight terrorism is to refuse to be terrorized. There is a worse thing than death and that is living in fear.

[Alexander's Horse]

Ya, its sad for them.

Some Aussie survivors were urging people to visit Bali to show support for the Balinese.

There's a long relationship there. The tourist trail to Bali was first forged by surfers chasing the legendary reef breaks. Kuta beach started out as a surfie destination, it still is.

There's usually about 20 - 30,000 Australians in Bali. Upwards of 300,000 Australians visit every year. Its kind of like what Hawaii is for Americans.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by paiktis22
So many Greek names...

Yep

A bride's loss: four bridesmaids
By Ellen Connolly
October 16 2002

The wedding was just 10 days ago. Now will come the funerals.

But first newlywed Maria Elfes, 27, must find the bodies of her four bridesmaids: her twin sister, Dimmy, elder sister, Elizabeth, 33, and friends Christine Betmalik, 29, and Louiza Zervos.

The four missing Sydney women flew to Bali last week with the honeymooners to continue the wedding celebrations.

"They all had dinner together on Saturday night, and the girls wanted to go to a club, but Maria and Kosta were tired from shopping so they went back to the hotel," a family friend said yesterday.

Maria and Kosta were continuing their search of morgues yesterday.

"They're not on any hospital lists. It doesn't look good," said a friend, Lilian Delia.

"We hope there is some sort of a miracle, but it doesn't look good."

Ms Betmalik, Chrissy to her friends, would have turned 30 tomorrow.

"She was looking forward to celebrating it in Bali, away from Sydney and with her friends," Ms Delia said. "She just had this carefree attitude."

Yesterday the three households sat in their respective loungerooms, glued to the television, watching for news and weeping.

Ms Betmalik's mother, Angela, could be heard wailing.

"She is my only daughter. I can't go on."

Ms Betmalik lived with her parents in a Croydon unit. Yesterday her teddy bear lay on her neatly made bed as her mother brought out framed photographs of her vivacious daughter. Her unopened mail sat on the dresser.

The Kotranakis, of Blacktown, are unable to comprehend the loss of two daughters and the thought of funerals.

"The wedding was so beautiful. All the girls. Happy," said a cousin, who did not want to be named.

"They were on holiday. You don't expect this."

More than 300 people had celebrated the wedding on October 5 at St Paraskvi's Greek Orthodox Church, Blacktown.

The reception went on for hours, and then the wedding party continued the celebrations in Bali. A video captured them in the days leading up to the disaster swimming in the hotel pool, on a cruise, shopping.

They had been there five days. On Saturday the four girls lay around the pool, working on their tans and planning their night on the town.

They went to dinner with Maria and Kosta.

By 9pm they were at the Sari Club.

Maria and Dimmy were identical, and inseparable. They were fans of the Parramatta Eels and went to all their home games.

Asked how the family was holding up last night, the cousin said: "Barely."

"Barely".

[Case]

The Australian Department of Foreign Affairs has just announced that it now believes that up to 119 Australians were killed in the attack.

[notyoueither]

Oh my.

This is aweful. I don't know what else to say.