Expectations for Monarch level?

[planetfall]

Just started first Monarch level game.


I expected:
-- AI to out expand,
-- more problems keeping up with techs,
-- barbarian battles more difficult.

What I did not expect:
-- harder to maintain happiness
-- much harder to keep up with productivity.

Included mini map.
Civs:

  China   {turquoise} 

  India   {purple}

  Rome    {rust}

  Germany {blue}

  France  {in black area}

  Russia  {in black area}

  Greece  {in black area}

Comment-- since Rome was close and smaller, was going to try taking NE city, but my SSW city flipped to Indian and 2 settlers pairs {one from China, one from Rome} are in S of continent. By trading techs fairly close in techs, but behind in demographics. Military all average. No trade route to China. Just at started Middle Ages. About tied with India in score behind China. It is early, 560ad.

Demographics--

Approval	76%	        1

Pollution	0	        1

Annual income	4/capita	3

Mfg Goods	109 megatons	3

Military	5 yrs	        3

Disease	        3%	        4

Literacy	36%	        4

Land Area	29000 sq.miles	5

Life expectancy	28yrs	        5

population	2580000	        5

Family size	1	        6

productivity	231	        6

GNP	        125 million     7

Concerns--
1. last in productivity. {I am monarchy, rest of known are republic.}
2. way behind in land area,
3. unable to get any GW. Attempting to get Smith's, but ...

Questions--
1. Is this a typical Monarch level game?

2. When would you plan to invade Rome: a) after knights?, b) after cavalry? or c) other time.

3. Not panicing, but what would you recommend for my primary goals for:
A-- Middle Ages Era
B-- Industrial Era

Thanks

-- PF

[dojoboy]

Its expected. Trade for, or conquer, luxuries to increase your happiness. Since India is on your continent, they're really the only one who can give you a headache. You may want to spread your hegemony to include the Indian provinces. Amphibious landings are pulled off very well by the AI, ever. Those choke points in India's territory are beneficial. You know where they're coming from. I think you're in a good position to win this game. It depends on what your goal is for victory.

[Arrian]

I would probably have attacked India a while ago. I'd probably do it now if I had a bunch of Knights. Or Rome. Either of them looks puny next to you, so I say saddle up 'n hit somebody.

By the way, when I made the jump up to Monarch, I found that civs that were strong on lower levels weren't as strong on Monarch, and vice-versa. Babylon was my old favorite on Regent, but I kept getting beaten as Babylon on Monarch. So I started playing other civs, and discovered the awesome power of Egypt, and then of Japan and China.

On Monarch, I think it's important to have an early medieval golden age. Not everyone agrees, but I find that's where the game hangs in the balance. Japan and China have knight-based UUs, whereas Egypt has a UU that is cheap and can easily be held for just the right time. Plus, all three have wonder combos which will result in pretty well-timed GAs.

In my opinion, scientific is a weak trait above Regent level. Under certain circumstances, it can still be great, but most of the time I'd rather have something else (Rel, Ind, Mil).

-Arrian

[Theseus]

PF,

Looks like a no-brainer. Stay on Monarchy for now. Make sure you have marketplaces, esp. in any 6 pop or larger town. Smother India with Knights... manage elites to get some GLs. Smother Rome with Cavs. My guess is you'll have 3-4 luxuries at that point.

At some point, probably while nailing Rome, change to Democracy, and build like crazy.

Smother China with Panzers.

Don;t worry about the slow start... as you move up levels, the point of reaching parity gets pushed back.

[Mattaba]

And could you post a SAV?

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Arrian
I would probably have attacked India a while ago. I'd probably do it now if I had a bunch of Knights. Or Rome. Either of them looks puny next to you, so I say saddle up 'n hit somebody.

Have so so military so far. 2 swords, BUT 12 archers, 4 horses, and about a dozen spears. Plan is to upgrade archers to longbow and then start campaign.

I couldn't attack earlier because I didn't have much grassland and only 1 luxury. So fighting just to settle continent and get productive cities. I had to irrigate too much just to get population. Ugh.

By the way, when I made the jump up to Monarch, I found that civs that were strong on lower levels weren't as strong on Monarch, and vice-versa.

Thanks for the warning. I figured Soren must have some hidden traps with each difficulty jump.

In my opinion, scientific is a weak trait above Regent level. Under certain circumstances, it can still be great, but most of the time I'd rather have something else (Rel, Ind, Mil).

-Arrian

I understand. Sticking with my game learning method.
A-Play one civ up to deity. I selected Germany because it has a fairly late UU and so have to get the first 2 eras down well and can't rely on an UU to pull you out of a bad position.
B- Play fewer civs so conquest is more challenging. I select 4 of the civs that have given me the most trouble recently and 2-3 random.
C- read the forum regularly.

With all the AI advantages, the "scientific" trait of Germans doesn't seem to help. Both Romans and Germans had military and I don't object to a slight military advantage.

-- PF

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Theseus
PF,

Looks like a no-brainer. Stay on Monarchy for now.

Agreed. Made mistake and saw other known civs were republics, so initially switched to republic. After 2 turns I realized this was a bad move and went back and went safer Despot-Monarch-Republic route.

Make sure you have marketplaces, esp. in any 6 pop or larger town.

Don't know if that is important yet. I have 1 luxury and difficult to get more than 1 additional in trade. I'm still working on libraries and temples.

Smother India with Knights... manage elites to get some GLs.

Interesting, better to hit approximately equivalent power than weaker Rome. Makes sense. I was going to go for Rome first for 1) safe Northern front, and 2) Rome only has iron in one tile close to an obvious landing zone. I like your idea better.

Smother Rome with Cavs. My guess is you'll have 3-4 luxuries at that point.

Three. Strange resource allocation. I have silks. Rome has gems. India has spices. China has 3, but I don't have a trade route yet so I can't recall any other than ivory.

Don;t worry about the slow start... as you move up levels, the point of reaching parity gets pushed back.

I expected a slower start and parity to come later and later as move up in difficulty levels. Thus wasn't worried, just bad timing that got both one continent empires and higher difficulty level in same game. Still don't think too big of a bite. It does make the game more suspenseful.

-- PF

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Mattaba
And could you post a SAV?

Well of course. I didn't get a copy yet as it is early in the game and I didn't think anyone would be interested.

It will be tomorrow. The minimap is 650ad. I'll bring in the save at the end of turn just before started revolution. You can decide how to play
1. delay revolution and stay despot
2. switch to republic, like other 3 civs
3. switch to monarchy as I did in minimap.

Right now I am playing monarchy until economics. If play goes badly, I will back track and try as despot thru economics. I think it made more sense to switch to monarchy now rather than waiting until after economics, but unsure.

-- PF

[Mattaba]

Originally posted by planetfall


Well of course. I didn't get a copy yet as it is early in the game and I didn't think anyone would be interested.

It will be tomorrow. The minimap is 650ad. I'll bring in the save at the end of turn just before started revolution. You can decide how to play
1. delay revolution and stay despot
2. switch to republic, like other 3 civs
3. switch to monarchy as I did in minimap.

Right now I am playing monarchy until economics. If play goes badly, I will back track and try as despot thru economics. I think it made more sense to switch to monarchy now rather than waiting until after economics, but unsure.

-- PF

Thanks, I'll check it out. I have autumn holiday in 2 days so that means civ time!!!

[vmxa1]

I wonder why you thought you would not have more problems with happiness? As you move up the less the number of contented citizen you get to start with in a city. This mean unhappiness is your companion much sooner at the higher level. Wait to you only get one happy citizen per city.
I agree with Arrian as I often do, get India. I do not allow anyone to share my land mass any longe than necessary. Once you get all the land and RR you are pretty much secure.I am not real fond of Japan,but china is a super Monarch civ. I would question going to Democray if you are going to war a bunch, I would stick with Republic. One warning, Arrian, Thesus and I seem to do a lot of warfare, so that may not be what you want.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by vmxa1
I wonder why you thought you would not have more problems with happiness? As you move up the less the number of contented citizen you get to start with in a city. This mean unhappiness is your companion much sooner at the higher level. Wait to you only get one happy citizen per city.

"Civilization III has six difficulty levels,

Level Content Citizens
Chieftain 4
Warlord 3
Regent 2 Monarch 2 "

Both Regent and Monarch are 2 content citizens.

I agree with Arrian as I often do, get India. I do not allow anyone to share my land mass any longe than necessary.

Agreed, hated flip. Plopped city close to flipped city, rushed a library. City size shrunk to 3. Double pressure: 1) culture push nearby cities, and 2) building up military. Do not plan to let them stay long. After economics, they will be gone.

Once you get all the land and RR you are pretty much secure.

Agreed, but RR's are a long way off.

I would question going to Democray if you are going to war a bunch, I would stick with Republic. One warning, Arrian, Thesus and I seem to do a lot of warfare, so that may not be what you want.

Democracy? That's for other civs. Never played with either Demo or communist govt's.
By time can afford Demo, urgent demands for military outweigh any advantages of democracy. I just didn't clarify to Theseus.

-- PF

[vmxa1]

Cool, I thought you went from Warlord, another case of my not paying attention.

[jshelr]

I put something in, but took it out again. Isn't this a very old thread?

[Arrian]

jshelr,

Nope, this one's a day or so old.

PF,

Even though I'm a raging warmonger, I use democracy in nealry every game. It helps being religious, because I know if I get in trouble with WW, Monarchy is just 1 turn away. That's why I love Egypt and Japan (and the Aztecs too, but I prefer Japan's Samurai). China makes things more difficult, and I'm more likely to stick with republic.

Your military is quite small... you need some more horsemen. It sounds like China was blessed in this game. It's ok, you're still gonna win

I admire your game learning method. It's kinda "iron man." Much more so than mine, which is probably the "jelly man" method. Yours will probably teach you more about the game than mine, though.

-Arrian

[jshelr]

Ok, I thought I was getting deja vu all over again. Here's my post on moving up to Monarch for what it's worth.

Down with Temples and Libraries!!!

Just as a point of philosophy, beginning with the monarch level a balanced game no longer yields the highest winning percentage, IMO.

(Note that Arrian no longer likes Babs, but does like China and Japan. There's a good reason.)

Pure warmonger works better.

Principles include 1) don't do research yourself 2) build only barracks in the early game 3) don't expand too much -- better to stop and build vet military units

Beat tech out of the AI and buy tech only to be sure that the tech you win militarily is the most modern possible.

Do not neglect the power of the vet archer rush. True, they are not as impressive as swords or horses. But they are cheap!!! (Check out Egypt to get the best of both worlds.)

On most maps, it is not important to gain land early. It's important to render your neighbors impotent. After they can't hurt you, expand and build at your leisure.

My claim is that warmonger players who depart from the pure approach to fool around with wonders, etc., do so only because they can get away with it and still win easily. As they move further up toward Deity, the fire of competition stamps out the unnecessary and focuses on the bottom line: deliver that stack of vet offensive units to your neighbor's land quickly and you will win.

[planetfall]

Comments following post of sav.

-- PF

[planetfall]

In posted zip file, 3 years of game:

1. M-450_preanarchy.SAV
Monarch, year 450 AD at end of turn, just before started revolution. Post revolution choices will be: despot, monarchy, and republic.

2. mb_monarchy_830_quit.SAV
Monarch, running monarchy and quit at game lost by 830. Moral-- you can't wait until economics to start military campaign and build up resources. You have to start fighting much earlier.

3. mb_10 BC.SAV
10bc option in case you want to try before I wasted too much time improving and not enough time generating military.


I am currently replaying from previous "bad mistake" of switching to republic too early. Monarchy definitely did not work, so continuing the republic time line. Bad mistake was thinking republic was bad govt for this time. Don't know if replay will be any better, but not going to wait until economics.

If that fails, I will go back to 10bc. Unfortunately I didn't have any saves between 10bc and 450ad.

If that fails, I will have to ask you all what you did differently.

Have fun. Me, I'm still licking wounds.

-- PF

[Arrian]

PF,

Kinda following up on what jshelr said, if you're gonna warmonger, you have to gear your civ toward that pretty early on. In this game, it appears you started with a "builder" style - peaceful expansion with almost no offensive military. If you intended to fight, I'd say you expanded too far and stretched yourself too thin.

Going back and continuing to play "builder" style as a republic is probably a viable option. You goal should be a Cavalry blitz. The best way to do it is to avoid chivalry, and as you approach military tradition (not before) building a large force of horsemen for upgrading.

jshelr,

Interesting comments, and I agree with the general gist. I maintain, however, that at least some of the wonders are actually important investments, so "fooling around with wonders" isn't detrimental. Plus, bear in mind that even wonders that one could argue aren't really worth the shield investment pay off in other ways: denial to the AI - and remember that includes possibly denying a them a GA.

It's just that on the highest levels, building those wonders before the AI gets harder and harder. In fact, often your best shot at them is to rush 'em with leaders.

The other bonus of warmongering is capturing wonders. But that only works if the wonder in question is built on your continent, because otherwise it will take some time for you to get over and capture it. Plus, if it is a continent-specific wonder (Pyramids, Sun Tzu), and you capture it "over there" it will likely afford you almost no benifit. My best games usually involve the capture of the Pyramids from a neighbor. A friend of mine tells me he ALWAYS gives the AI masonry asap so they will build them for him. I rarely have masonry before them anyway (unless playing Egypt) and I figure they'll have it soon enough.

So that's my defense of my wonder-hogging nature.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

PF this will take a bit of time. I have to finish a campaign in a Heroes game first.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by vmxa1
PF this will take a bit of time. I have to finish a campaign in a Heroes game first.

No rush. I really posted the game for Mattaba. I need to replay as republic and see if learned anything. If still looks bad, will go back at least to 10bc so I can block India flipping one of my cities and worry about military more. It will definitely be at least next week before I have anything.

Enjoy your Heroes game.

-- PF

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by planetfall
1. M-450_preanarchy.SAV
Monarch, year 450 AD at end of turn, just before started revolution. Post revolution choices will be: despot, monarchy, and republic.

2. mb_monarchy_830_quit.SAV
Monarch, running monarchy and quit at game lost by 830. Moral-- you can't wait until economics to start military campaign and build up resources. You have to start fighting much earlier.
I am currently replaying from previous "bad mistake" of switching to republic too early. Monarchy definitely did not work, so continuing the republic time line. Bad mistake was thinking republic was bad govt for this time. Don't know if replay will be any better, but not going to wait until economics.
-- PF

I took a very quick peek at 830ad. This game may not be lost, if you can keep some friend at the right time. It will be very hard. I do not know what you mean by too soon to republic. I tend to not even go to monarchy when I play at the Monarch level, straight to Republic. If I was a religous civ, maybe. What I looked at first was the mil advisor and it was not bad, only Greece is stonger and they are not in sight. One is even. This would not be an issue, if you researched Feudalism in stead of Theology. You had no real chance to make the wonder, so it could wait. Pikemen could not wait and Knights either. So Feudalism, Chiv and then to Invention, would make the AI leave you alone while you get built up. (I guess since you have MT, you do not need Chiv so badly) I don't know how you got Mil Tradition and if the AI is that far ahead, it could get ugly. The good news is that invasions are hard for it to pull off. I would drop ED for Feudal and increase my spending on research to the mx I can stand, with out going negative. All your cities are size 6 or less, while China is size 12 on many, that is dangerous. With only size 6 or less, I can not see the need for irrigated tiles, unless it is a starving city. I see lots of mines that can not be worked, automated workers anyone? Did you toss in the towel as it looked bad or did some event occur, since you are not at war. Any way I saw 14 warriors, I never had that many warriors in any game. 12 archers, is not for me either. I do not do archer rushes, I would rather try with warriors as they can be upgraded later. Anyway I think it could be oulled off, but it would be homely. I will load in the 430bc or what ever it is.

[vmxa1]

Loaded the 450Ad. Swithced research to Feudal (13 turns), moved a few cities to wealth as they were too small to buidl anything in any reasonable time frame. Once they get a few more citizen, they can get started. Grabbed nearly all workers and stop the madness. Nuremberg not growing, move a worker to the lux to get the food, now growing. No lux slider at this time, not needed. Here is the thing you can see workers doing. Nuremberg not growing, but a worker making a mine, while at least 1 mine exist that can not be manned. Not sure what the settler is for, but will grab him and add to a city as no place to plant a city now. Two cities making archers and had no barracks, no thanks. Will see if I can flip the city back while I get pikes. Need to get to gunpowder to see if any saltpetter, if not, then it may be a good idea to toss in the towel or takes some. Depends how it is going.

[vmxa1]

I forgot to mentioned, I switched to Republic and took the hit. That let me go to only 7 turns for Feudalism.
570ad all spears now pikes. Traded Monotheism to Rome for gems, 13 gold and map, poor guy is broke.
630AD all horse types are now Knights, Engineering in 5 turns. Well 670AD started Invention. Traded silks to India for Comm, trade silks for more comm and yet again plus a little cash. Now have contactwith all. Funny Greece was annoyed at me at first contact. Now the Indian city has not flipped, so may need to attack. I may wait for GunPowder, not sure yet. I would say the game is not in bad shape, oh have Aqueducts in the large cities now and Capital is 8 or 9 size, so should start to make some progress.

[vmxa1]

Just to seee what the differences were, if any, I have some stats from the 8xxAD sav you posted and the 850AD I have.

-------- 8xx------ 850
Pop---- 3523K--- 4465K
GNP---- 291----- 341
Goods- 122M tons 133M
Prod--- 399------ 448

Two turns for education, Some pikes now Muskets. Got temples in all, coll in many and cath in a few and some markets. All civs polite. Need to get on to Rome, must expand soon. Since the AI has so many wonders, need more cities to offset the culture. Not having those old temples will start to hurt (they will gen lots of culture for the AI).

[jshelr]

Long comment on Wonders for new monarch players

Just getting people thinking about early wonders true cost was all I was trying to do in the comment above. Personally, I struggle before building early wonders because I visualize the shield cost as a stack of swordmen, about ten feet high.

Building the GL after a bad start last night bailed me out of a game. But it was built by a leader, not by turn after turn after turn after turn after turn of production in one of my key cities when units were desperately needed for an early conflict.

Wonders are actually a reasonable bet on a great game. If you get key wonders, you are flying. The downside is not really missing the wonder (because of cascading you probably will get something) but the risk that you will either not be ready to attack as soon as you should be or, much worse, you will actually be double teamed by the AI in the early game when they spot a weak military.

Once the human player gets out of the ancient era in one piece on Monarch, it's smooth sailing from there. That means anything that inhibits your survivability early, even if it boosts your civ later, might not be good.

So, let me suggest the proposition that focusing on early wonders reduces your winning percentage but getting wonders makes the wins more dominant and, usually, great fun. Skilled and experienced players on Monarch don't lose very often (maybe close to never) and they therefore have little risk when they go for wonders. New Monarch players may have much more downside risk and might benefit from a more focused approach at first.

The hit to your winning percentage gets much bigger on Emperor and Deity while your chance of actually missiing all the wonders becomes a pain in the posterior.

[planetfall]

First of all I have not caught up on comments left late yesterday.

1. Forget 450.sav. I also tried that one and quit with no hope.

2. Look at 10bc.sav.
Learned a little bit. Indian never flipped my southern city. I finally learned how to pop rush. I had always failed before with the message "not enough citizens". Previously I had just tried to limp along. Last night I figured out, wait a minute, if I bring over a few workers and join the city, then can I rush? I finally remembered for pop rushing each citizen is worth about 15-19 shields. Don't recall exact number. So this time brought over 2 workers to raise city to 4. Now I could rush when I needed 37 shields to get a library. I know it seems simple you understand the mechanics. But was a road block for a long time.

About 450-500, switched to republic. From earlier failures I knew I needed higher production than monarchy would give.

I got one Indian city and planted a new city about 3 tiles away just to get spices. Naturally China tried a 4 unit assault in North the same time I was busy with Indian. China is still annoyed but not on my continent. Happiness is now in hand with 2 natural luxuries and 1 imported.

Current difficulties:
1. low culture
I have never played with this low culture before. Even when I played the archer rush, I was able to build up culture by 700ad. Big difference in feel of game.

2. low techs
I expect to be 3-4 behind. Previously if I beelined to economics I could get it first. Now I will be lucky to get it third or fourth.

3. low production


Questions:

1. How get techs with peace ?
I think I goofed when made peace with India. Yes they sued for peace after lost one city and fresh troops arrived. But all I got was a breather and a few gold. They would not offer any tech even though they had 3-4 I did not have.

Do I have to beat them out of more cities or what?

2. How best deal with tech tail?
Don't have time today to troll forums for advice. Currently I am running 10% happiness and 0% tech. One citizen changed to scientist so do get tech instead of "--" turns to tech. I think this will maximize gpt. What I have been doing is trading 400-500g + luxury to civ that gives the best price for tech. For example now I am researching Theology. Russia is offering the best deal at luxury+380 gold. I have just over 400gold. I have not made the deal yet as trying to learn how to trade better. I am gaining about 35 gpt and Russia's cost for tech is dropping 30-40/turn. Thus it seems like at some point it will be good to buy early the tech I am researching.

Naturally the other alternative is to wait until have about 800 gold and buy any tech.

Real difficult at this level when can't successfully beat out techs and buying techs is slowly slipping more and more away.

Only hope I see for Smiths is to bring big stacks of archers and horses vs Indian pike, get all their spices and hopefully iron also. With enough conflicts, I hope to get one GL.
{yes I am bringing along my 4 catapaults}. At about 730ad now.


Just some food for thought. Got to get some work done now and will read yesterday's posts in a bit.

Thanks again for you help. My sons are still at warlord and it would really be cool to feel comfortable with monarch when PTW comes out. If difficult to keep up with raw intelligence or brain speed, maybe can compensate with experience.

-- PF

[planetfall]

Originally posted by vmxa1


Did you toss in the towel as it looked bad

Yes. Saw no point in continuing unless playing "hoping for a miracle"

How got MT?

First game at level, editor change for free tech. Probably didn't need it, but added as safety net if got in trouble early in MA. Did not want an early MA tech.

== PF

[planetfall]

Originally posted by vmxa1


Did you toss in the towel as it looked bad

Yes. Saw no point in continuing unless playing "hoping for a miracle"

How got MT?

First game at level, editor change for free tech. Probably didn't need it, but added as safety net if got in trouble early in MA. Did not want an early MA tech.

-- PF

[planetfall]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Just to seee what the differences were, if any, I have some stats from the 8xxAD sav you posted and the 850AD I have.

-------- 8xx------ 850
Pop---- 3523K--- 4465K
GNP---- 291----- 341
Goods- 122M tons 133M
Prod--- 399------ 448

Ok, ok, ok. Takes time to get thru thick head. Give up on beeline to economics. Beat it out of them.

If you have the 850.sav it would be interesting to see.

Workers were not on automatic. PF management error.

-- PF

[vmxa1]

PF, I did not beat anything out of them, as I never fired a shoot. You had a poor land mass, as it has very little in the way of bonus tiles, resources are fine. Silks, is all I remember seeing and no cattle, one wheat and maybe one game tile. I do not have the game up right now, so this may not be accurate. I think the key is to get the cities placed well and get them producing max shileds. Placement to me means using 19 tiles per city. This layout leaves no gaps for AI to fill and only 2 unuseable tiles. This means no workers making improvements in tiles that can never be worked. Later it is hard to do this. At monarch, I will go for a few key wonders in the early game. Gl is often one I get, it all depends on the map, wars, etc. Anyway once you get to mil tradition, you should be holding you own in research. I do not pay hundreds for tech, that just makes my enemies too powerful. On water maps it is hard to beat things out of the AI as they are on other land masses. Invasions are hard without tanks, they can be done. In this game, if I was to go on from here, I would make 4 ships to send in 8 calvs to Rome. I would stage in the city closest to a roman city. Drop in on them and take a city. If I could I would time it with someone else going after them and reduce the chances that I will have to fight others. I would sent 2 ships back for troops, workers. If I get a coastal city, I disband 2 ships to get the temple going. If the fight goes well, grab a second city. You could send muskets over to fort the new city, freeing calv for another conquest. I would like 3 or even 4 cities, if I get the breaks and can get units over. If others join the fun I would eliminate Rome so the pop would be pacified. I would like to see 2 civs on the island, so no one gets too much out of it and it will be easier for me to take them away later. If I get a leader, I would likely drop a palace.