It is done...Dutch right wing governement collapses - Page 3

DinoDoc · October 17, 2002, 17:34

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Originally posted by germanos
I have no idea why DinoDoc wants this so bad, but he may well get what he wants.

1) The nickname Hueij gave the country ("Little Italy") fits too well at the moment.

2) I'd like to have a bit of fun with SM.

Zopperoni · October 17, 2002, 17:41

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Originally posted by Saint Marcus
what about all the finnish threads?

They get to stay, because they were the first

germanos · October 17, 2002, 17:43

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Originally posted by Saint Marcus
Not too fast...the VVD is mainly concerned with economic policies, and not these controversial topics. Also, if the VVD says no to the CU, the CDA might look to the PvdA as a coalition party (if the VVD and CDA don't get enough seats). And besides the CU, there's not party that may join a VVD+CDA coalition. The others are too unstable, inexperienced or leftist.

Oh no...

The VVD might be tired of the PvdA now, but they have been very happy that in the last two terms (previous to this mess) they have been able to settle a lot of issues that have been blocked by the CDA previously, and they are exactly the issues the CU hates most: Liberal laws on personal issues: abortion, euthanasia, marriage possible for homosexuals etc.
The fact they have a liberal agenda to economics as well doesn't mean they are not strong advocates for personal freedom, and they will NEVER give that up. They know very well personal freedom is an imperative for economic prosperity.

Hueij · October 17, 2002, 17:47

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Originally posted by Saint Marcus
are other languages illegal here on poly? what about all the finnish threads?

Read all about it in the Community forum. You should have known Apolyton is NOT a democracy...

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Originally posted by Ming
Good advice...

Why, thanks Ming

]

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Originally posted by Saint Marcus 1) The nickname Hueij gave the country ("Little Italy") fits too well at the moment.

DD, please do never, I repeat NEVER, agree with me. It's embarressing...

Saint Marcus · October 17, 2002, 17:49

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They get to stay, because they were the first

bullshit. that's just discrimination.

Hueij · October 17, 2002, 17:51

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=64799

Ming · October 17, 2002, 17:54

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Originally posted by Saint Marcus
bullshit. that's just discrimination.

Nope... just the rules... deal with it. You agreed to follow the rules of this site when you became a member.
If you don't like it... post somewhere else. Your choice.

And if you continue this discussion here, this thread will be closed/deleted for spam... So get back on topic... and stay in English

Saint Marcus · October 17, 2002, 17:58

Ming:

Anyway, what do ya'll think of the fuss the LPF is making over this one ("we're being set up, jada jada")

germanos · October 17, 2002, 18:09

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Originally posted by CyberShy
I disrespect Rosenmuller very much. He always stands against the monarchy, but right now he makes an elecoral issue about Claus' burial and the cabinet crisis. He has a point, but he goes to far with it.

The whole Claus thing is yet an example of how outdated and onnoying it is we still have a Monarch as head of State.
No doubt the Dutch posters here are aware that the crisis in the LPF (which led to the downfall of this cabinet) was in full swing the weekend Claus died. That was 12 days ago. I have found it appaling that for a full 10 days

ALL meetings in parliament were scrapped, and thus governing this country came to a halt.

And see what mess it has brought.

I feel sorry for the Queen, but I don't feel that the passing away of the spouse of the head of state is reason to stop parlement from functioning properly. Especially not in times of great crisis.

The message of the events of the last two weeks should be:
Get responsible, hold up your own pants, and take responsability for your society and your government. Don't look up to saviors, may they be Queen, Prince or Fortunists.

It is us that will have to create and maintain wellbeing. Get that Republic moving

Robert Plomp · October 17, 2002, 19:19

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A. Groenlinks isn't a strong oposer of the Monarchy, that's the SP and D66.

my mistake, but you're right on this one.

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B. Disrespect Rosenmuller? why? he's one of the best guys we have in politics. and he was the only one who beat Pim Fortuyn in a direct debate. The only one.

Rosenmuller has a big mouth, but his words are empty. Everything he accused Pim Fortuyn of, are his trademarks. The 'beating Pim in a direct debate' thing you refer to is the perfect example of it. a VERY personal argument, not even in place (Fortuyn was very on topic, and made good arguments) while Rosenmuller was the one who made a show, while he accused Fortuyn of it.

Easy winning, with personal argumentations.

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C. the argument about Claus burial goes for all oposition parties, not just Rosenmuller. And besides, he was absolutely right. It's awfull that the governement talked about these issues on the day Claus got buried.

Like I said: He got a point. It was not very good to meet on that day. (eventhough I can see that some things are unable to avoid)

But Rosenmuller makes a political issue about it, trying to work on the emotions of the electoral. (electoraat? ) (that's one of the words I can't translate)

And I blame him for that. He tries to win votes over Claus' dead body. I'm sorry, but that's the way I see it.

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D. green-liars? why? cause of Singh Varma? that's a bit cheap, I can point out lots of politicians who pulled all sorts of crap.

No, not because of Singh Varma, but because of the short-sighted pro-green beleid he wants to execute.

Robert Plomp · October 17, 2002, 19:23

Ming: Can you please keep that discussion on the poly forum, instead of hijacking this thread with it???? No reason to repeat your words when other people already linked to the right thread. The "Good advice" post was really unnescecary as well, I concider it to be spam and threadjacking. One more of these unacceptable behaviors and I will have to report you.

About LPF: They're really crazy! They want to ruin the country! The sooner the elections are, the better!

About the CU,
I think that when the CU will participate in the governament, they will be like the CDA, and agree on much of these topics because they will se that it's impossible to keep up those things against the majority.

CU = CDA, but the CDA takes governamental responsibilities while CU is more in the opposition.

It's like with the PvdA and the SP.

Ming · October 17, 2002, 19:26

Quote:

Originally posted by CyberShy
Ming: Can you please keep that discussion on the poly forum, instead of hijacking this thread with it???? No reason to repeat your words when other people already linked to the right thread. The "Good advice" post was really unnescecary as well, I concider it to be spam and threadjacking. One more of these unacceptable behaviors and I will have to report you.

Gee... funny that you should bring it up 30 minutes after I stopped... talk about hijacking... And if you keep bringing it up... this thread will be toast because of YOUR unacceptable behaviors

Robert Plomp · October 17, 2002, 19:31

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Gee... funny that you should bring it up 30 minutes after I stopped... talk about hijacking... And if you keep bringing it up... this thread will be toast because of YOUR unacceptable behaviors

I didn't read it up to that moment

Now you even react childish.

This is a spam post again, it's off topic.
I asked you kindly, but I will report. Why Ming Why do you always want to be right? And why do you always want to show your powers off? "this thread will be toast because of YOUR unacceptable behaviors"

Now move this discussion to the right place, into the on topic forum. I didn't start it overthere for no reason. I did that to avoid threadjacking and spamming in this thread. And now see what happens........ YOU are the one who continues the discussion in here

sure you will close this thread now.

Just say "I'm sorry, let's continue the discussion on the right place" and all will be fine.

But no, mr Ming wants to show off again

Ming · October 17, 2002, 19:35

As long as you stay on topic... the thread remains open... if you want to continue trying to insult me... You are the one that keeps brining it up... not me

Saint Marcus · October 17, 2002, 19:54

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No, not because of Singh Varma, but because of the short-sighted pro-green beleid he wants to execute.

clarify

presumable there comes a giancarlo-esque argument on how bad leftwing/green policies are for a country, jada jada. If that's your argument, then why do you like the SP better? Their plans are way "worse" than those of GL. Did you read the SP alternative budget?

Furthermore, if greens are so bad, then why are they doing so well in Germany?

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CU = CDA, but the CDA takes governamental responsibilities while CU is more in the opposition.

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It's like with the PvdA and the SP.

awfully short sighted. just because the PvdA and SP are both leftwing doesn't mean they are similar. Same with the CDA and CU. Did you even bother to read the SP and PvdA programs? They hardly agree on anything, so how similar can they be? The VVD is closer to the PvdA than the SP is!! And your comment on the CU is absurd too. Don't you know about their plans to turn back a good number of laws?

Robert Plomp · October 18, 2002, 05:53

Marcus: Please don't start using personal arguments like the Giancarlo thing. Let's focus on the content.

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If that's your argument, then why do you like the SP better? Their plans are way "worse" than those of GL. Did you read the SP alternative budget?

Well, I said that I respect MArijnesse more while I totally disagree with him. Rosenmuller and van Nieuwehoven are using the big-mouth politics. Very personal attacks and all that. Compare them with ie. Wouter Bos and Marijnesse, than I do indeed like the latter two more. But indeed, GL would be better as a governamental party than the SP. Pherhaps I said different before, than I take that back.

About 'why greens are bad but not in Germany',
most of the time parties like the green parties chill out when starting to become part of the coalition. Take Fischer in Germany, he's a very wise man who saw that much of his ideas got no change. A part of his electoral even hates him for that.

That's what I think that will happen with parties like GL and CU when they do become a part of the coalition. They'll temper.

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awfully short sighted. just because the PvdA and SP are both leftwing doesn't mean they are similar.

That's not what I said, that they are simulair.
It's that the SP is more extreme than the PvdA.
That's becuase the PvdA has to make compromisses to take part in the coalition while the SP doesn't have to do that.

Of course they're not the same, and they even have completely different programs. But in some way they are on the same line, but one of them goes far further while the other one is much more tempered.

So is it with the CU and the CDA.

And yes, I read their programs. Of all parties.

Saint Marcus · October 18, 2002, 07:13

if I read your post correctly, you'd srespect the Greens more if they get in the governement (because they'll mellow down)?

Saint Marcus · October 18, 2002, 08:03

anyway, we are like Italy. this is the second governement that has collapsed within a year (Paars 2 cause of the Srebrenica report, Balkenende 1 cause of the LPF).

Robert Plomp · October 18, 2002, 09:48

I think GL will mellow down if they become a part of the governament indeed. But I wonder if Rosenmuller will be 'as wise' as Fischer.

Our politics is very 'italian' these days indeed

But I expect things to settle down after the next elections. There might be 1 or 2 'small parties' who'll be fighting all the time, but who cares about them?

Post Count Zero · October 18, 2002, 10:08

Veeleesanas

Zopperoni · October 18, 2002, 10:22

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Originally posted by Post Count Zero
Veeleesanas

Wablief?

DinoDoc · October 18, 2002, 10:32

I thought that Dutch was banned.

Saint Marcus · October 18, 2002, 11:04

stop the threadjacking dd.

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I think GL will mellow down if they become a part of the governament indeed.

So it would be a good thing if they got in the governement, not?

They'd mellow down, and you'd get more respect for them

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But I wonder if Rosenmuller will be 'as wise' as Fischer.

Probably. Most dutch politicians, and citizens, think very highly of Rosenmuller and praise him for his political experience and debating skills. That doesn't mean he'll make a good minister, but even if GL gets in a coalition, Rosenmuller might just stay as "fractievoorzitter" just like Zalm is doing now.

Hueij · October 18, 2002, 12:37

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fractievoorzitter

Naughty naughty...

The moment Green-Left joins a government the party will collaps and split into its original factions, the Communists, the Pacifists and the Radicals. It would be a great boost for the Socialist Party though! (And thus also for

Agnes Kant

)

Mijn twee Eurocenten...

Bosh · October 18, 2002, 12:40

can someone please give me a run-down of all the parties, all the acronyms are confusing poor Boshko...

Hueij · October 18, 2002, 12:46

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Originally posted by Boshko
can someone please give me a run-down of all the parties, all the acronyms are confusing poor Boshko...

I would, but it would mean a lot of Dutch words and I don't want to get banned...

Bosh · October 18, 2002, 12:51

ok, then at least what do all the parties stand for? I gather that VVD is liberal and CU is fundy but what's PvdA, some kind of center-left?

Hueij · October 18, 2002, 13:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Boshko
ok, then at least what do all the parties stand for? I gather that VVD is liberal and CU is fundy but what's PvdA, some kind of center-left?

Okay then, here goes, from left to right:

SP, Socialistische Partij (Socialist Party). Relatively new party with some good old socialist ideas.

GL, Groen Links (Green Left). An '80's fusion of the Communist Party, the Pacifist Socialist Party and the Radical Party (which was a split of of the now ceased Catholic Peoples Party). They grew tremendously the last 12 years and now they are considered government-"faehig". To get there they took a huge turn to the center.

PvdA, Partij van de Arbeid (Workers Party). Originally what the name says, now a just-slightly center-left party. In the focus of political power for eight years but were pretty beaten up last elections. Still struggling. I was a member a long time ago but left when they gave up too much in return for a government position.

D66, Democraten 66 (Democrats 66). Founded in the roaring '60s, center left liberals, almost dead now.

CDA, Christen Democratisch Appel (Christian Democratic something). Center right, formed out of the three old Catholic and Protestant parties. In government since the Exile from Eden but in decline since the '70's and not in the government for the last 8 years. But somehow they were the big winners of the last elections

. Will certainly be the big shot in any new government.

VVD, Volkspartij voor Vrijheid en Democratie (Peoples [yeah, right] Party for Freedom and Democracy). Calls itself liberal but are conservative when economics are concerned.

CU, Christen Unie (Christian Union). Fusion of two small Christian parties. For fundies they are kind of liberal but only just.

SGP, S...?? Gereformeerde Partij (....?? Reformation Party). Christian fundies. No women members allowed!! Very small.

A bunch of wacko right-wing fascist and neo-nazi parties, slowly dying out.

----------

Dunno if it's left or right, but we also have the LPF, Lijst Pim Fortuyn (List Pim Fortuyn). Founded by the gay baldhead with the same name that had wacky ideas and was murdered. His heirs totally ****ed up and are now the laughing stock of Dutch politics. We won't be hearing from them from now on.

Hope this helps...

Saint Marcus · October 18, 2002, 14:52

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The moment Green-Left joins a government the party will collaps and split into its original factions, the Communists, the Pacifists and the Radicals.

It worked in Germany, it can work here too

Saint Marcus · October 18, 2002, 14:53

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I would, but it would mean a lot of Dutch words and I don't want to get banned...

ach...