View Poll Results: Do we declare war on France
Yes 39 62.90%
No 23 37.10%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old October 23, 2002, 12:18   #1
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Poll (Official) Declaration of War on France
This is a poll to give the government the ability to declare war on france at the most opportune moment in the next 5-10 turns.
This poll needs 50%+1 to pass.
This poll will last 3 days.
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Old October 23, 2002, 12:25   #2
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This issue had been dealt with and debated elsewhere, so I'll simply say that as SMC I greatly desire this declaration of War. The war can either be of a limited nature or of conquest. Let me assure the people of Apolyton that I will listen to the will of the people on all things refering to this effort. After our initial conquest(see battle plan), we will hold another poll to see if the nation desires to go further. An additional issue is do we want a GA now. That poll is forthcoming.
Thank you
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Old October 23, 2002, 12:26   #3
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Shouldn’t there be an “abstain”, I don’t want to be nit-picky, but better to start a new one now than have a problem later.
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Old October 23, 2002, 12:28   #4
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WAR! GOOD GOD!
WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR?

techs.. money... land... resources...
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Old October 23, 2002, 12:35   #5
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No. We lack in our infrastructure and our own defence at this time. How many of our cities have no defensive units? Far more than I care to think of. No. Let us spend until the year 1000 just building up our infrastructure and our defences, then go out into the rest of the world kicking and screaming with our hoards.
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Old October 23, 2002, 12:43   #6
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Randolf I don't like abstain due to the potential confusion it can cause, so I don't use them.
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Old October 23, 2002, 12:44   #7
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WAR!!!

The longer we wait, the stronger Joan gets, and the more incentive she will be able to offer our neighbors to join her cause.
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Old October 23, 2002, 12:46   #8
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having problems today...
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Old October 23, 2002, 13:02   #9
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Old October 23, 2002, 14:14   #10
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War! Before they get Musketeers.

BTW, Aggie, you need to say how long the poll lasts.
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Old October 23, 2002, 16:47   #11
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War ASAP before Joan has Musketters on cities with Hills and also can bribe someone into betraying us with a spare Saltpeter.
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Old October 23, 2002, 16:47   #12
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I'm going to withold my vote for either side at the moment. I'm undecided.
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Old October 23, 2002, 16:58   #13
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I would only support it if we do it before they hook up their saltpeter. I don't want to attack fortified Musketman on hills with knights.
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Old October 23, 2002, 17:14   #14
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I think we would have worse odds attacking fortified Riflemen on hills with Calvary.

Quote:
Originally posted by CiverDan
I would only support it if we do it before they hook up their saltpeter. I don't want to attack fortified Musketman on hills with knights.
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Old October 23, 2002, 18:25   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kloreep
War! Before they get Musketeers.
Too many people have made this statement (or something similar) for me to ignore - this statement assumes that war with the French is inevitable! Why is that? They are a weak civ - they'd be NUTS to start a war with us!

Why must we conquer/destroy/assimilate all our neighbours? We have a nice stretch of land and some good cities. What is wrong with developing our civilization? For the numerous warmongers among us, wars will be inevitable anyway, as other civs get jealous of our power and culture. Why must we be the aggressor - again!

I vote NO!
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Old October 23, 2002, 18:26   #16
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To War!
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Old October 23, 2002, 18:31   #17
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Comrades, we will have war!
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Old October 23, 2002, 18:40   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by UberKruX
WAR! GOOD GOD!
WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR?

techs.. money... land... resources...
The French have no techs we need.

The French have no money.

The French have land, but we are already the largest civ and need to fix the land we have.

The French have resources we already have extras of. We don't need them.

NO WAR! Let Pax Apolytonia finish what it started!
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Old October 23, 2002, 18:44   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by joncnunn
I think we would have worse odds attacking fortified Riflemen on hills with Calvary.
actually the odds are the same in both cause Knight att=4, Musketeer Def=4 & Cavalry att=6 rifle def=6.


but anyways,

Neither are odds I like that must unless we have a significant unit advantage.
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Old October 23, 2002, 19:21   #20
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Something to keep in mind. I'm not sure how much we should consider this, but the thought has been floating around in my head all afternoon.

What is the most fun decision we can make?

We shouldn't always do the thing that is most enjoyable, because sometimes it's better for us in the long run to build up our country ... if we want a shot at winning down the road.

However, turnchats where we just move workers around, argue about build queues, and renegotiate trade deals are rather dull. We need challanges, suspense, incidents, opponents, and goals if we are to remain as active and as interested in this game as we have been. Especially when PTW comes out.

When PTW comes out and the discussion changes to "how do we do a PTW Demo Game?", how dedicated are we going to be to finishing up this Demo Game?

This should give us something to think about. In my opinion, a quick war with France would be fun, but it would also spring a Golden Age that our entire nation would enjoy. We could get SO much built and researched during that period of time!

I'm somewhat partial to capturing Rheims and disarming France seems reasonable, but getting a Golden Age is what really drives me towards this war. The GA is the ultimate (and extremely timiely) prize and it's a prize worth fighting for.

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Old October 23, 2002, 19:43   #21
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I'm always for having the game be fun. That is my critical choice now. I'm not sure the game would be fun if we just keep on invading other nations, and I'm not sure it will be fun without a GA in the near future.
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Old October 23, 2002, 20:04   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Togas
However, turnchats where we just move workers around, argue about build queues, and renegotiate trade deals are rather dull.
Too bad you couldn't have come to one of my turnchats last week. Those were surprisingly fun considering everyone has half asleep and we mainly just moved around workers.

There was some great tech trading though.
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Old October 23, 2002, 20:21   #23
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I support a Limited War Only
I support a limited war for the Following reasons:
Quote:
from the Pax Apolytonia? Poll Thread
I support a war only for four reasons:
1) Generate a GA
2) Have a Possible GL
3) Liberate Rheims so that they can join our Jungle Ball league.
4) Liberate the Saltpeter Deposits from France.

I don't want the war for the French Western costal lowlands

Explansion of above:
1) A GA would allow me to get the rest of the needed core city Items into place or with them being close to completion by the end of the GA. THe GA will also Allow us to be doing some actual research for a change, on our own. We have a few Librarues currently (I'll have the list in my Construction Shack City status report for 700AD) and a few more in about 15-20 turns. Because we're getting closer to completeing Printing Press (8 turns left) and we would have to move the slider to 50% of more to have faster results now. So thereby, we are on that course for atleast 8 more turns. If we "pull the strings" in 10 turns, try to limit the war to 5 turns and use the rest of the GA to to get ourselves out of the dark ages.

At this point in time, we should be building Universities & Banks, instead of starting to build Libraries (if not having to Build Cathedrals to take care of happieness issues in our cities) and just finishing Marketplaces. Our Growth is now Pyramid driven and (in some cities) outpaces the construction of the Improvements that promote happiness. We have aquired technologies only though very tough negotiations that were very delecate (and the timeing just right, Thank the Banana!) and costly and our economy wasn't cripples by then, though they could have been.

With GA driven building and economy, I can get us more towards were we should really be at this point in time. The outer Provences are still suffering from near Catastrophic Corrution and run away growth, HOW are wo going to pay for this pipe dream of increasing our presence in the Western seas, when were still getting the Persian Provences out of Catastrophic Corruption.
We have the size, we just don't have the depth to become great. A GA will let us acheive that depth especially in combination with a short war.

2) Rome has nearly completed building JSB and when they do, the others will switch to Smith's Trading and have that completed shortly. Magellins will be taken by who ever's third in that race, unless they haven't gotten Navigation by that time. The one in fourth will get Newtons if they've gotten Theory of Gravity. If not, they'll switch Along with the reat of the lossers) to either Small Wonders or Big ticket Items (Uni or Bank). A timely GL would allow us to get one of these (I prefer Smiths for the money saved). And who knows, the Banana will smile on us and grant us two to three, one for JSB & last for an Army (for two small wonders). But we need to start the war soon, timing is key here and Rome is setting the clock ticks. I was actually expecting to be in the war now (and hoping to cut them off at their wonder seeking knees).

3) We need more 'Cultural Glue' in that area because of Greece, but Rheims puts a spot in it. Having Rheims will help knit that area up just nicely. And they will also be that last City that is elegable for a Jungle Ball Expansion Team.

4) We have only resently learned of the Saltpeter deposits that are in the French territories. If we aquire them, we can sell them and still have a surplus, for just in case one of the deposits runs out. THis also allows us to control those areas of mountains & hills for when Coal is discovered. The western Coastal lowlands doesn't have much of a chance for that at all. And Rubber's much later.

Having the War for just the Objectives of Rheims, Lyons, Besancon, Dijon & Amiens for the cities; the resourses, GA and a possible GL are all that I think that this nation needs and should do. Anything beyond that is just plain bloodthirsty.
Bloodthirsty & Vengeful if we go beyond the above Objectives.

Now some further things to consider when the final desision is made for when we will start the war.

How long does it take a 'Native' French Worker to build a road in a mountain? We know that France has 3 Workers around Rheims. See the Attached Image:

If these are the only workers that France currently have, we can block them from moving across our land to the Saltpeter. Further, If Avignon generates a worker, we could buy it from them and they would be back to square 1, at least for that City. But, either way, If a worker appears on one of the sources, we still have time to act, plan and prepair without acting like it's an extreme emergency.

Personally, I haven't voted yet. Because:
I would vote YES for a limited war, with limited objectives, that will start no sooner than 6 turns and no later than 1 turn before whatever French worker completes a road.
On the other hand, I would vote NO for a war that would go beyond the above stated scope and/or that would be starting sooner than necessary.

Her are some links to other discussions about this issue:
Pax Apolytonia?
War Academy: Plans for France
War Academy: Next taget England or France
The timeline leading to war with france

[EDIT] Added the link to the timeline to War with France

E_T
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Old October 23, 2002, 20:38   #24
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Again, I agree with E_T, for the reason of the GA. In order to build our infrastructure we would benefit from the GA. I say it only needs to be a short war. France is not a threat in the long term.

After that, than we need to stop war for many years and concentrate on victory via the space race.
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Old October 23, 2002, 20:40   #25
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Hey, regarding the whole 2/3 -vs- 50%+1 for war polls... I guess it's 50%+1 by the current CoL because of no explicit reference to war polls, but the following line in the CoL I think would also be a guide to that determination:

"The President must have a 2/3 majority before he can change our Government type or mobilize our economy for war."

Someone from the Court... when it comes to the "mobilize our economy for war", isn't that near to meaningless until we reach I think nationalism? (and, given that this CoL will be out the window likely before then... totally meaningless). I guess if the 2/3 rule applies to declarations of war, however, that might be different.

Just curious here...
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Old October 23, 2002, 21:40   #26
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Arnelos, I always thought it was 2/3 until Klorkeep pointed out that that was for economy mobilization to war. So I too am curious, also another thing, can we demand people to leave our land without DOW approval since that could be a backdoor to war. Maybe we need to address this in the new code of laws. I say we put in a war powers act that says that we can demand people to leave our territory and if a war starts we MUST end it at the earliest moment unless the senate has approved of the action.
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Old October 23, 2002, 22:04   #27
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I don't know anymore...

Aggie can you give me a verbal (well in this case written) promise that the war will not be prolonged (multiple turnchats) nor will you allow it to branch into a larger conflict, as in the LAST TIME WE DECLARED WAR ON FRANCE AND ENDED UP BEING AT WAR for several turnchats?!

Otherwise I can't bring myself to cut off the Pax Apolytonia so soon.
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Old October 23, 2002, 22:05   #28
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Have to agree with Reddawg...

Personally, my interest in this war is directly tied to the start of the GA.
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Old October 23, 2002, 22:24   #29
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Ok in response to all, I have after much consultation and analyzis decided that I will limit this war to the eastern and se cities of france. This seems to be the center of gravity of the people views so I'll take support it. Additionally I have been informed by another minister that the extra cities would adversly affect our corruption. So I will support a limited war, also this will allow us to extort GPT from france and in the future perhaps we can use them as a GL factory.
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Old October 23, 2002, 22:28   #30
notyoueither
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Another hole in the CoL. The power to declare war is not mentioned. However, practice leads us to conclude that a majority vote would allow the President and SMC to take us to war.

I do not read the CoL as saying that 2/3s is required to declare war. It says 'mobilization' which in a Civ3 context would mean the mobilization button after nationalism.

The most applicable passage I can think of right now would be:

Ministerial Branch

Ministers make up the core of our government. They do the hard labor required to point our country in the right direction. Ministers are experts in the area they oversee, and they have the serious task of informing and advising the people on our situation. They are required to conduct polls in order to interrupt the people’s will. They are then to carry out that will, by giving their direction to the President.


Strictly speaking, by that clause, I would suggest that the FAM and SMC get on the same page and then direct the president.

Of course, if anyone were sufficienty put off by the poll, then they could also challange it in court.
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