View Poll Results: Do we declare war on France
Yes 39 62.90%
No 23 37.10%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
Old October 23, 2002, 23:08   #31
E_T
C3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3CDG Team BabylonC4DG SarantiumCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Emperor
 
E_T's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 8,807
Quote:
Originally posted by Aggie
Ok in response to all, I have after much consultation and analyzis decided that I will limit this war to the eastern and se cities of france. This seems to be the center of gravity of the people views so I'll take support it. Additionally I have been informed by another minister that the extra cities would adversly affect our corruption. So I will support a limited war, also this will allow us to extort GPT from france and in the future perhaps we can use them as a GL factory.
Aggie
I don't think that We'll get much in the way of LPT from France, but we can try. If this is the case with just a limited War and IF we don't start too soon, I then Hereby Support this proposed DOW!

E_T
__________________
Worship the Comic here!
Term IV Deputy Foreign Minister for Trade of Apolytonia, Term V CP & Term VI DM of Apolytonia, Term VII SMC of Apolytonia - SPDGI
Minister of the Interior of the PTW InterSite Demo Game
E_T is offline  
Old October 23, 2002, 23:18   #32
Jonny
Civilization III Democracy GameNationStatesNever Ending StoriesGalCiv Apolyton EmpireC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamC3CDG The Lost Boys
 
Jonny's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Nashville / St. Louis
Posts: 4,263
We must go to war with France, in order to:

1)Get a GA,
2)Possibly get a GL, and
3)Get access to the Western Sea for exploration.
Jonny is offline  
Old October 23, 2002, 23:53   #33
GhengisFarb™
lifer
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Glory of WarCivilization II Democracy GameCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Deity
 
GhengisFarb™'s Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,289
To go to war with France to only take a few cities makes no sense. If we got to war with France it should be to take them out of the game.

Taking them out would eliminate any hostility of French citizens as their civ wouldn't exist anymore. This is not a new war as the only reason the last war with France was ended was because the SMC orders had not been followed to the letter and our military was weakened and we lost Rheims. We hadn't finished and it was understood that we would regroup and finish the war.

Leaving another 3-4 city mini-state like the immense tactical blunder we did in the American war is just giving those cities to another Aztec civ. This time it would probably be Greece.

Since Aggie has declared it a limited war there is no way that I am supporting this war.
Anything other than total elimination of France is illogical.
GhengisFarb™ is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 01:57   #34
Torkkeli
Civilization III Democracy Game
Warlord
 
Torkkeli's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: in a bush near You.
Posts: 192
Quote:
Originally posted by donegeal


The French have no techs we need.

The French have no money.

The French have land, but we are already the largest civ and need to fix the land we have.

The French have resources we already have extras of. We don't need them.

NO WAR! Let Pax Apolytonia finish what it started!


Give Peace a chance!
__________________
So many pedestrians, so little time
Torkkeli is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 04:14   #35
Harovan
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Monty PythonC4DG Gathering Storm
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
 
Local Time: 10:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
Let's wage the war as long as we have this SMC. Go Aggie!

I agree, that we don't really need it, but heck, that's what keeps the game interesting. How would look the president's turn reports if it wasn't for war? Sonething like that?

"I looked around, moved some workers and pressed <RETURN>."
"I looked around, moved some workers and pressed <RETURN>."
"I looked around, moved some workers and pressed <RETURN>."

Boring, no?
Harovan is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 04:26   #36
notyoueither
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamPolyCast TeamPtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
notyoueither's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
Man. We're a blood-thirsty lot...

Give us bread and circuses...
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
notyoueither is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 09:28   #37
Donegeal
PtWDG Glory of WarC4DG VoxApolyCon 06 ParticipantsC4BtSDG TemplarsSpore
Emperor
 
Donegeal's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Apolyton's Resident Law Enforcement Officer.
Posts: 4,811
Quote:
Originally posted by GhengisFarb
To go to war with France to only take a few cities makes no sense. If we got to war with France it should be to take them out of the game.

Taking them out would eliminate any hostility of French citizens as their civ wouldn't exist anymore. This is not a new war as the only reason the last war with France was ended was because the SMC orders had not been followed to the letter and our military was weakened and we lost Rheims. We hadn't finished and it was understood that we would regroup and finish the war.

Leaving another 3-4 city mini-state like the immense tactical blunder we did in the American war is just giving those cities to another Aztec civ. This time it would probably be Greece.

Since Aggie has declared it a limited war there is no way that I am supporting this war.
Anything other than total elimination of France is illogical.
I am against this war. But as it looks like Aggie is going to get his 50%+1 (which is total bull to begin with) I also suport GF reasoning. We also have to consider this: If we go to war and take one or two of the three objective cities, France will send its counter strike force against us (Might I remind everyone of the Persian Counter Strike? Archer stacks 6+ deep defended by Spears). No big deal, you say? I would actually tend to agree with you, but, if we are going to endure the French Counter Strike, we might as well finish off the job as they will already be down to virtually nothing in reguards to units.

This also brings up the Republic issue again. As it is pointless to do a "whacking" (take a few cities and sue for peace) of France, we will be in a longer war than we want. This will bring war weariness into the picture again. Might a change back to Monarchy be in order?
__________________
Founder of The Glory of War, CHAMPIONS OF APOLYTON!!!
Proud member of Vox Controli II: Civ IV MPDG
1992: Perot :( 1996: Perot :( 2000: Bush :) 2004: Bush :| 2008: Obama :(
Donegeal is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 09:37   #38
Harovan
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Monty PythonC4DG Gathering Storm
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
 
Local Time: 10:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
Quote:
Originally posted by donegeal
Might a change back to Monarchy be in order?
If WW gets out of control, yes, but not preventive. We are religious and can do it anytime, no big deal.
Harovan is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 09:46   #39
UnOrthOdOx
PtWDG2 TabemonoPtWDG Glory of WarApolyton Storywriters' GuildIron CiversApolytoners Hall of FameC4BtSDG Rabbits of CaerbannogCiv4 SP Democracy GamePolyCast TeamC4DG The Mercenary TeamC4WDG The Goonies
Emperor
 
UnOrthOdOx's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: As cuddly as a cactus, as charming as an eel.
Posts: 8,196
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Let's wage the war as long as we have this SMC. Go Aggie!

I agree, that we don't really need it, but heck, that's what keeps the game interesting. How would look the president's turn reports if it wasn't for war? Sonething like that?

"I looked around, moved some workers and pressed <RETURN>."
"I looked around, moved some workers and pressed <RETURN>."
"I looked around, moved some workers and pressed <RETURN>."

Boring, no?
My sentiments exactly. Kinda hard to write a paper on how many roaded tiles we made the last 100 years.
__________________
One who has a surplus of the unorthodox shall attain surpassing victories. - Sun Pin
You're wierd. - Krill

An UnOrthOdOx Hobby
UnOrthOdOx is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 09:52   #40
Robber Baron
Prince
 
Robber Baron's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Commonwealth of Commonsense
Posts: 608
I'll throw in for war, mainly to trigger the Golden Age. I'd set it up this way (if it were my personal game): might as well take out the French altogether. Hold off on the war chariots until near the end, and time the golden age to bloom just as France dies and peace settles, to maximize GA bonuses in building infrastructure. If we're lucky and get a leader, probably spend it building either the FP or the palace relocation -- whichever pays off bigger/faster in terms of boosting production in surrounding cities.
And meanwhile, be careful of possible aggression from another expansionist/militaristic civ (i.e., Rome, Germany and/or Aztecs). They might be provoked as we undergo yet another round of expansion.
My two bits, anyway.
__________________
aka, Unique Unit
Wielder of Weapons of Mass Distraction
Robber Baron is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 11:11   #41
Aggie
Civilization III PBEMPtWDG Glory of WarCivilization III Democracy GameC4DG SarantiumPtWDG2 TabemonoInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton Team
King
 
Aggie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Of GOW's half of BOB
Posts: 1,847
I knew some would be unhappy with the decision for a limited war, but let me explain alittle more. I believe that the goal is to have a fun game for everyone and thus all people's views must be considered. We could have certainly passed a DOW without the limited war plan but it would have been very close and I feel uncomfortable decideing such issues by a bare majority. So I decided to limit the war so that we can get more people on board. I consider this very important in a game such as this. Imagine if we had won the DOW poll 38-37. In that case we would be taking a course 180 degrees from almost half our population. Imagine the alienation of those people, many might stop playing or participating believing that they will have no voice and that the number of people for war would always out vote them. So I decided to make some concessions to let them and all people know that their voices are heard and considered and to aknowowledge that they do have some points(corruption and potential alliances among them). Since we will gain all resources that they will have and connect HIW, we will have little left to gain by taking the rest of the cities that would be worth alienating a significant portion of people. Later(after palace relocation and Forbidden palace) we can take the rest or earlier if they are attacked by someone else. Remember the americans lost so much to the aztecs because we were preoccupied with another war. I doubt this will be the case this time.
Aggie
__________________
The 5th President, 2nd SMC and 8th VP in the Civ3 Demogame. Also proud member of the GOW team in the PTW game. Peace through superior firepower.
Aggie is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 11:52   #42
joncnunn
Civilization III Democracy GameC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMApolyton UniversityC3CDG Team BabylonApolyton Storywriters' GuildCiv4 SP Democracy GameC4DG SarantiumC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
joncnunn's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Maryland Heights, MO
Posts: 6,188
Those odds listed before are BEFORE defensive teraign bonsus & city size bonsus.

Quote:
Originally posted by CiverDan

actually the odds are the same in both cause Knight att=4, Musketeer Def=4 & Cavalry att=6 rifle def=6.
__________________
1st C3DG Term 7 Science Advisor 1st C3DG Term 8 Domestic Minister
Templar Science Minister
AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now. :mad:
joncnunn is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 12:00   #43
joncnunn
Civilization III Democracy GameC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMApolyton UniversityC3CDG Team BabylonApolyton Storywriters' GuildCiv4 SP Democracy GameC4DG SarantiumC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
joncnunn's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Maryland Heights, MO
Posts: 6,188
A limited strike war only makes sense if we can end the war before the French main army attacks us.

If we beat off the French main attack force, we should finish the job.
__________________
1st C3DG Term 7 Science Advisor 1st C3DG Term 8 Domestic Minister
Templar Science Minister
AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now. :mad:
joncnunn is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 12:15   #44
GhengisFarb™
lifer
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Glory of WarCivilization II Democracy GameCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Deity
 
GhengisFarb™'s Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,289
Quote:
Originally posted by Aggie
I knew some would be unhappy with the decision for a limited war, but let me explain alittle more. I believe that the goal is to have a fun game for everyone and thus all people's views must be considered. We could have certainly passed a DOW without the limited war plan but it would have been very close and I feel uncomfortable decideing such issues by a bare majority. So I decided to limit the war so that we can get more people on board.
You lost me, I'm going to campaign against this war now. Your reasons are like the US deciding to limit their targets is the Persian Gulf war to one tree. No military bases, no oil fields, we are simply going to war with Iraq to bomb one tree, because thats the only thing that all of the people will support.

So now instead of having one final war and the possiblilty for peace we will have 2-3 wars with no possiblity for an era of peaceful infrastructure construction.

Quote:
Originally posted by Aggie
Later(after palace relocation and Forbidden palace) we can take the rest or earlier if they are attacked by someone else. Remember the americans lost so much to the aztecs because we were preoccupied with another war. I doubt this will be the case this time.
Aggie
Who's to say Germany doesn't attack us and as we're mobilizing to fight that war Greece or Rome attacks France?

The Aztecs waited until we were busy to declare war and that could very likely happen again.
Just vote No! Say NO to the Pacifest's PC War on France!

Next thing you know Aggie's going to want to use rubber bullets and nerf artillery.......
GhengisFarb™ is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 12:21   #45
Thud
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameCivilization III Democracy GameCivilization III MultiplayerPtWDG RoleplayInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamNever Ending StoriesC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamPtWDG2 Mohammed Al-SahafC4BtSDG Templars
Prince
 
Thud's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Proud to be an American
Posts: 759
Actually, I think I will vote in favor of Aggie's plan. But I've got a bad feeling about this whole thing *sense of foreboding smiley*
__________________
"The Enrichment Center is required to inform you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake"
Former President, C3SPDGI
Thud is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 12:26   #46
GhengisFarb™
lifer
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Glory of WarCivilization II Democracy GameCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Deity
 
GhengisFarb™'s Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,289
This isn't even a war!

It's a practice shoot at moving French targets with the hope that they don't take it personal because our SMC is afraid of them.
GhengisFarb™ is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 12:38   #47
Proserpine
Warlord
 
Proserpine's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 230
All we are saying, is give peace a chance.
__________________
Diderot was right!
Our weapons are backed with UNCLEAR WORDS!
Please don't go, the drones need you.
Proserpine is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 13:02   #48
Togas
Civilization III Democracy GameCivilization III MultiplayerInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamPtWDG2 SunshineC3CDG The Lost BoysC4DG The Mercenary TeamPtWDG RoleplayC3C IDG: Apolyton Team
Emperor
 
Togas's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: California
Posts: 5,245
It's not a war? Call it what you want. But what it is, is:

1) A method to trigger our GA
2) A "Froggie Shoot" to give our elite units a random chance at more GLs.
3) The recapture of Rheims, stablizing our borders.
4) The capture of two saltpeter resources.
5) The capture of Amiens, Dijon, Lyons, and Besancon, unifying all of our cities into a solid border, and giving us strategic control of the bottleneck on our continent.

Sounds good to me.

--Togas
__________________
Greatest Moments in ISDG chat:"(12/02/2003) <notyoueither> the moon is blue. hell is cold. quote me, but i agree with ET. :p"
Member of the Mercenary Team in the Civ 4 Team Democracy Game.
Former Consul for the Apolyton C3C Intersite Tournament Team.
Heir to the lost throne of Spain of the Roleplay Team in the PTW Democracy Multiplayer Team Game.
Togas is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 13:16   #49
joncnunn
Civilization III Democracy GameC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMApolyton UniversityC3CDG Team BabylonApolyton Storywriters' GuildCiv4 SP Democracy GameC4DG SarantiumC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
joncnunn's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Maryland Heights, MO
Posts: 6,188
Togas, in my opinion by the time #4 and #5 is done, the French military will be in such bad shape that we might as well finish the job unless we are having war werriousness problems.

A limited war that ends before the main French stack definately includes #1 and #3 but starts getting questionable at #4.

We might try rope-a-dope tactics against the AI to increase our odds of taking the 2 Saltpeters whichout actually having to fight the French main body but it's still not a sure thing.
__________________
1st C3DG Term 7 Science Advisor 1st C3DG Term 8 Domestic Minister
Templar Science Minister
AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now. :mad:
joncnunn is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 13:31   #50
zeit
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC4DG Gathering Storm
King
 
zeit's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Someplace
Posts: 1,327
-Politics are now a part of the equation, no longer just plain startegic and tactical interests. Since Aggie seemed to have commited himself to limited war, and the people vote yes, a complete conquest is not an immediate option. In a way, this is what the DG is all about- it's not just Civ3, it's also roleplay and politics.

Although i agree with joncnunn and GF- as long as we don't face stubborn resistance and WW issues the war should end with us finishing up with joan, I vote yes. It's not perfect, but it still has it's share of advantages, as Togas and others said.
__________________
Save the rainforests!
Join the us today and say NO to CIV'ers chopping jungles
zeit is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 13:48   #51
GhengisFarb™
lifer
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Glory of WarCivilization II Democracy GameCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Deity
 
GhengisFarb™'s Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,289
Quote:
Originally posted by zeit
-Politics are now a part of the equation, no longer just plain startegic and tactical interests. Since Aggie seemed to have commited himself to limited war, and the people vote yes, a complete conquest is not an immediate option. In a way, this is what the DG is all about- it's not just Civ3, it's also roleplay and politics.

Although i agree with joncnunn and GF- as long as we don't face stubborn resistance and WW issues the war should end with us finishing up with joan, I vote yes. It's not perfect, but it still has it's share of advantages, as Togas and others said.
Don't give in. As long as we support poorly thought out strategy and ineffiecient warplans that is all they are going to give us. Put your foot down and make them do the logical choice.

As long as France exists that is ONE VOTE AGAINST US for a diplomatic victory. We take them out and we need one less vote to win the game.

So a vote NO is a vote to annex all of France AND a vote for improving our infrastructure. The only bad choice is a vote Yes to do a second-rate job at both and a good job at neither.
GhengisFarb™ is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 14:38   #52
UnOrthOdOx
PtWDG2 TabemonoPtWDG Glory of WarApolyton Storywriters' GuildIron CiversApolytoners Hall of FameC4BtSDG Rabbits of CaerbannogCiv4 SP Democracy GamePolyCast TeamC4DG The Mercenary TeamC4WDG The Goonies
Emperor
 
UnOrthOdOx's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: As cuddly as a cactus, as charming as an eel.
Posts: 8,196
Actually no, Ghengis.

This poll is about being able to declare war in the next 5-10 turns, according to the first post. It has nothing to do with how complete the war is, again, the POLL, not neccessarily the thread. We can not completely destroy the French without going to war first.
__________________
One who has a surplus of the unorthodox shall attain surpassing victories. - Sun Pin
You're wierd. - Krill

An UnOrthOdOx Hobby
UnOrthOdOx is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 14:43   #53
GhengisFarb™
lifer
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Glory of WarCivilization II Democracy GameCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Deity
 
GhengisFarb™'s Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,289
Quote:
Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Actually no, Ghengis.

This poll is about being able to declare war in the next 5-10 turns, according to the first post. It has nothing to do with how complete the war is, again, the POLL, not neccessarily the thread. We can not completely destroy the French without going to war first.
Actually yes.

This poll started as a declaration of war with France until Aggie promised we WOULD MAKE NO ATTEMPT to finish off France completely.

There is no way I will support a partial conflict leaving France 2-3 cities we could have effortlessly taken.

Aggie's declaration made the DIA and Hawk votes the same, for Total War or for Peace the only way to get your way is to vote NO.
GhengisFarb™ is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 14:47   #54
UnOrthOdOx
PtWDG2 TabemonoPtWDG Glory of WarApolyton Storywriters' GuildIron CiversApolytoners Hall of FameC4BtSDG Rabbits of CaerbannogCiv4 SP Democracy GamePolyCast TeamC4DG The Mercenary TeamC4WDG The Goonies
Emperor
 
UnOrthOdOx's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: As cuddly as a cactus, as charming as an eel.
Posts: 8,196
The first post determines the meaning of the options. It explicitely states this poll is to allow the declaration of war in the next 5-10 turns.

We have court precedence that the poll creator can declare his own poll invalid, but there is nothing of the sort of the poll creator being able to alter the meanings of the options. Whatever has been said after reguarding the nature of the war is not considered, therefore, by the poll.
__________________
One who has a surplus of the unorthodox shall attain surpassing victories. - Sun Pin
You're wierd. - Krill

An UnOrthOdOx Hobby
UnOrthOdOx is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 14:49   #55
Aggie
Civilization III PBEMPtWDG Glory of WarCivilization III Democracy GameC4DG SarantiumPtWDG2 TabemonoInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton Team
King
 
Aggie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Of GOW's half of BOB
Posts: 1,847
Ghengis I DON'T do second rate jobs. I also don't fear the French and know we could take all of france. But just because you can do something doesn't make it in your best interest to do it. The current plan gives us just about everything but the head of joan. Earlier you said you were worried she would be taken over by somebody else and now you say you are afraid she will be around to sink us in the diplomatic vote. Which is it, they can't both be true. I worry far more about the former than the latter, she will be destroyed, hopefully by us, long before the diplomatic vote. NOT GOING TO WAR KNOW and taking these resources and connecting our nation would be the mistake, not stoping w/o joans head. Ghengis usually I share your opinions, but on this issue I'm afraid we will have agree to disagree.
Aggie
__________________
The 5th President, 2nd SMC and 8th VP in the Civ3 Demogame. Also proud member of the GOW team in the PTW game. Peace through superior firepower.
Aggie is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 14:56   #56
GhengisFarb™
lifer
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Glory of WarCivilization II Democracy GameCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Deity
 
GhengisFarb™'s Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,289
Quote:
Originally posted by Aggie
Ghengis I DON'T do second rate jobs. I also don't fear the French and know we could take all of france. But just because you can do something doesn't make it in your best interest to do it. The current plan gives us just about everything but the head of joan. Earlier you said you were worried she would be taken over by somebody else and now you say you are afraid she will be around to sink us in the diplomatic vote. Which is it, they can't both be true. I worry far more about the former than the latter, she will be destroyed, hopefully by us, long before the diplomatic vote. NOT GOING TO WAR KNOW and taking these resources and connecting our nation would be the mistake, not stoping w/o joans head. Ghengis usually I share your opinions, but on this issue I'm afraid we will have agree to disagree.
Aggie
THEY ARE BOTH VALID POSSIBILITIES IF WE DON"T TAKE ALL OF FRANCE.

Either way we give something away for nothing, France is going to trade for Saltpeter if they don't have it. IF we can take all of France except the three northwestern cities what is it they are capable of that has you so afraid of them?

Do those three cities have nuclear weapons? They certainly won't have the production capability of the cities we would have already taken. Why are those three cities invincible and the others considered to be pushovers?
GhengisFarb™ is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 15:00   #57
Aggie
Civilization III PBEMPtWDG Glory of WarCivilization III Democracy GameC4DG SarantiumPtWDG2 TabemonoInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton Team
King
 
Aggie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Of GOW's half of BOB
Posts: 1,847
Unortho is absolutely right. This poll decides whether or not we declare war. The character of the war is determined by the SMC and FAM. This poll isn't a "do we take all of france or not poll". This is simply a do we fight poll. If this poll is defeated it is my understanding that we will be unable to propose another one until 3 weeks have passed. So the arguement that a no vote is a vote for a total war is not justified. A no vote says "I don't want a war".
Aggie
__________________
The 5th President, 2nd SMC and 8th VP in the Civ3 Demogame. Also proud member of the GOW team in the PTW game. Peace through superior firepower.
Aggie is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 15:15   #58
GhengisFarb™
lifer
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Glory of WarCivilization II Democracy GameCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Deity
 
GhengisFarb™'s Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,289
Quote:
Originally posted by Aggie
Unortho is absolutely right. This poll decides whether or not we declare war. The character of the war is determined by the SMC and FAM. This poll isn't a "do we take all of france or not poll". This is simply a do we fight poll. If this poll is defeated it is my understanding that we will be unable to propose another one until 3 weeks have passed. So the arguement that a no vote is a vote for a total war is not justified. A no vote says "I don't want a war".
Aggie
It should say that, but you OFFICIALLY declared you would stop short of total victory which makes the actual result different than the stated poll.

If you hadn't have said that it would be an easy choice for everybody, you would have been guaranteed the Hawk vote AND several realistic DIA crossovers who see the advantage of gaining more resources.

But you tried to side with the DIA by setting limits on the war and now risk alienating Hawks (and Hawkish independents like me) who could easily have carried it to victory.
GhengisFarb™ is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 15:17   #59
Aggie
Civilization III PBEMPtWDG Glory of WarCivilization III Democracy GameC4DG SarantiumPtWDG2 TabemonoInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton Team
King
 
Aggie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Of GOW's half of BOB
Posts: 1,847
As I said earlier ghengis, the decison to limit the war was a political one. The closest RL analogy would be the Coalition forces stopping short of baghdad during the gulf war. The reason was that the UN mandate didn't call for further action(another comparison is that do you think the congress(senate in particular) would have approved of the war if the goal had been to take baghdad), well in this case the best I can figure the mandate from the people calls for the war to end after the intial objectives are met. Militarily there are no reasons to stop, but there are political and corruption issues to deal with. As we all know war is almost never fought without the political background(and sometimes foreground). This does add another wrinkle to the military side, but makes this game all the more like RL and interesting.
Aggie
__________________
The 5th President, 2nd SMC and 8th VP in the Civ3 Demogame. Also proud member of the GOW team in the PTW game. Peace through superior firepower.
Aggie is offline  
Old October 24, 2002, 15:18   #60
joncnunn
Civilization III Democracy GameC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMApolyton UniversityC3CDG Team BabylonApolyton Storywriters' GuildCiv4 SP Democracy GameC4DG SarantiumC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
joncnunn's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:45
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Maryland Heights, MO
Posts: 6,188
Aggie and Unorthdox are correct in that the SMC & FAM determine the character of the war.

GF is correct in that if we leave France a few cities left, any of the AI's might annex the remaining sections.

The Most likely candidates though are Rome & Russia because both are more agressive than Greece. Rome is the more likely of the two to attack right away, Russia is more likely to want to attack until she has Cossacks to trigure her Golden Age.

GF is also correct that if for some reason Joan of Arc is still around when the UN votes, she votes against us, athough in my mind the proability of Joan of Arc still being around when the Modern Age begins is very slim.

I would encourage Aggie to pre-position troops in such a manner that it's most likely that we can take the Saltpeters & Rheims in the fewest possible number of turns after hostiltiy begins and use some rope-a-dope tactics to maximize probility of sezing those cities before actually having to fight the main French army.

I would also enocurage FAM & SMC to either stop short of the limited objective if we'd have to fight the main French army to do so or else fight the army and then take all the French cities. IMHO, Defeating the French army but letting Joan live is a waste.
__________________
1st C3DG Term 7 Science Advisor 1st C3DG Term 8 Domestic Minister
Templar Science Minister
AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now. :mad:
joncnunn is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:45.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team