Up to 700 people believed to be held hostage in Moscow - Page 7

Eli · October 26, 2002, 04:56

30 dead hostages, according to Moscow's mayor.

Serb · October 26, 2002, 05:09

Is brefeing already started? I'm running to watch the news.

Serb · October 26, 2002, 05:17

More then 750 rescued, 67 dead!!!

Sonic · October 26, 2002, 08:43

Serb, so you suspended the capital punishments but you are in fact doing these in place anyway - terrorists weren't able to shoot back after the gas attack, so they had to be arrested by Russian laws.

Anyway, everything seem to end up just as I predicted in my first post in this thread. All terrorists dead, few hostages dead, no one from sepecial forces dead...

By the way Serb, no, I didn't said Sharia'h is good. I've said there is no things such as good or bad in the world - only the people can decide what is what. ANd that people aren't us, but one from the subject country. If people will have to live under laws they dn't agree with (Talibanic Afghanistan as an example), then laws will be bad. If people will agree with laws, then they will be good.

Serb · October 26, 2002, 09:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Sonic
Serb, so you suspended the capital punishments but you are in fact doing these in place anyway - terrorists weren't able to shoot back after the gas attack, so they had to be arrested by Russian laws.

It wasn't a punishment, but a battle situation. ONE SINGLE MOVE OF ONE OF THE FINGERS OF ANY OF THOSE TERRORISTS were enough to KILL A LOT OF INNOCENT PEOPLE. And by our laws killing of EXTREMLY DANGEROUS CRIMINALS during battle operation it's not a crime. We have the same laws as any civilized country.

Quote:

By the way Serb, no, I didn't said Sharia'h is good. I've said there is no things such as good or bad in the world - only the people can decide what is what. ANd that people aren't us, but one from the subject country. If people will have to live under laws they dn't agree with (Talibanic Afghanistan as an example), then laws will be bad. If people will agree with laws, then they will be good.

If people we'll not fight vs. such barbaric laws, your shining future- "without jails and criminals" will never come. As well as modern punishment system would have never become real, if people didn't fought vs. medieval barbarianism.
Some people still have barbarian laws and you agitate me that is OK?
And btw, do you really think that people of Chechnya was happy to live under such laws? Why then during three years more Chechens escaped to Russia, then during time when in Chechnya was active millitary actions.
I'll give you a hint: they were running from such laws and from bandits and terrorists which you still consider as representatives of all Chechen people.

Sonic · October 26, 2002, 09:52

Serb, yes, future without jails MIGHT come. Did the people of middle ages imagined that one day tortues will be illegal? Did people of industrial ages imagined that slavery will once be abolished? No. In fact, we don't know not only what will be after 50 or 100 years, but also what will be tommorow (did we knew that in September 10, 2001?), probably tommorow a nuclear war will start - although this is hard to believe but never say never.

Yes, I believe most of muslims are happy with Sharia'h. And thus we are no gods to say what is good for them and what is not. It is absolutely fascistic to think that everything what you don't understand and disagree with is bad. Again, there are NO good or bad nations, good or bad religions, good or barbaric laws. There are just different cultures.

I by the way didn't said future without jails will be without criminals - probably just ones who says that they will never do a crime again against polygraph will be imidiatly set free, while ones who would sit in jail would sit in better jails. Probably people from the future will call our laws barbaric and our jails very bad, they would look to us just as we look to middle ages laws and dungeons.

Serb · October 26, 2002, 13:06

You need a good doctor. The more I talking with you, the more I see that you need serious help.
You think modern society didn’t evaluate its punishment system. That just in one nice morning people of middle ages awaken and noticed that world has changed, that physical punishment is bad thing, that torture or inquisition is bad thing, etc? You need a good doctor, good medication and a lot of history books.
Another question do you ever speak with real Muslim? You think all Muslims use the same Shariah laws? Do you know that this law is part of Vahhabite teachings which history starts from 18 century while History of Islam starts from 6 century? Do you know that Vahhabizm is extreme, fanatic teaching which has nothing common with real Islam. That majority of Muslims (at least in Russia) consider Vahhabites as anyone but not Muslims?
Go and took some serious medication or education before engaging in debates. You terrorist supporter. Devil’s advocate.

Ming · October 26, 2002, 13:13

Serb and Sonic... You will keep PERSONAL attacks out of this discussion. You and Sonic have been going at it FOR FAR TOO LONG NOW. Not only am I sick of it, but the number of complaints I have received about BOTH of your behaviors has now crossed the 20 limit. If both of you don't put a stop to this crap, I will by banning both of you! I don't want to hear "he started it" or "he is lying"... YOU ARE BOTH WELCOME TO YOUR OPINIONS, BUT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CONTINUE THESE PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST EACH OTHER. You will either argue like gentleman, or I will make sure you won't be arguing here again.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND!

There will be NO FUTURE WARNINGS... Just instant bans... which will have NOTHING TO DO WITH CENSORSHIP but EVERYTHING TO DO WITH YOU TWO ACTING AS COMPLETE JERKS TOWARD EACH OTHER.

Sonic · October 26, 2002, 13:34

Wait a bit for a reply...

Heresson · October 28, 2002, 11:34

Now, thanks to Russian "heroes" using some misterious gas, the number of people died is now 120 or so -
as the Russian authorities didn't want to tell the hospitals anything about the gas, and they were prepared to rescuing shot people, not poisoned.
The men involved in freeing the hostages were given antidotum - but no-one thought about the civilians.
How Russian.

The Mad Monk · October 28, 2002, 11:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Heresson
Now, thanks to Russian "heroes" using some misterious gas, the number of people died is now 120 or so -
as the Russian authorities didn't want to tell the hospitals anything about the gas, and they were prepared to rescuing shot people, not poisoned.
The men involved in freeing the hostages were given antidotum - but no-one thought about the civilians.
How Russian.

Yes, thanks to the heroic Russians, there are seven hundred people breathing that otherwise would not have been.

Heresson · October 29, 2002, 05:44

Funny that You say "breathing".
Of 120 dead people, only 2 (sic! sic!) were shot by the terrorists, the rest died because they were poisoned by
gas used by Russian forces. When it comes to the terrorists, they weren't shot in the fight - they were shot in the sleep.
Bravo, oh brave Russians!

The Mad Monk · October 29, 2002, 05:53

Heresson, it is easy to say what they shouldn't have done. What should they have done?

Pekka · October 29, 2002, 06:56

No matter what they used etc, this might be the best possible result. We will never know.. I hope they give antidotes to doctors, or at least some info about it, so they can treat the sick. I don't care if they hold the info from the rest of the world, just give it to the doctors.

Heresson · October 30, 2002, 20:35

Quote:

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Heresson, it is easy to say what they shouldn't have done. What should they have done?

I don't condemn taking the action or even the way it was done - it wasn't bad. I condemn the use of experimental gas that turned out to be leathal, and the war in Tchechenia.