Russian Forces Enter Theatre, End Hostage Situation

[GePap]

Originally posted by Sonic


Not only Chechens, Palestinians and many others also. Re-read my previous post please for reasons, also please note that word gunmen is perhaps more "appropriate" to use for independent broadcasting stations, because that fits both opinions (ones who supports independence and ones who are against it), and if broadcasting station truly wants to remain independent in people's eyes it can't bash anything, even obviously bad things.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I have no probem with the terms. i am not someone who wil go into a lather because people I dislike are not defined as i wish them to be defined.

Terrorism is a form of political violence, like war. its a difference in kind:
A soldier is a armed thug given a uniform and validated by a state.
A rebel is an armed thug with a uniform but no state
A guman is an armed thug, that may or may not have a uniform, and no state.
A terrorist is an armed thug that uses violence to 'scare' others into acting how they want them to act (he audience of terrorist violence is never the target of terrorist violence)

Thus a soldier, gunman, or rebel can also be a terrorist.

[Uncle Sparky]

Geez Sparky...

Shut your cakehole and stop with the verbal diarhoea already - you're stinking up the forum...

You have eyes - use them to R-E-A-D!

I haven't even posted yet !

I think the rescue mission went about as well as could be expected.

But, will the US invade Russia now that they've tipped their hand that they have unknown chemical weapons?
... they have oil, too !

[The Mad Monk]

GePap, are you saying that Connorkimbro is a thug?

[Eli]

(concerning the movie of the Spetznaz guys storming the building)

I'm no spec ops expert... But dont you think they were doing it all way too slowly? They were simply walking in.

[The Mad Monk]

Tripwires, Eli, tripwires...

[Uncle Sparky]

Well, I'm off to a brunch & a matinee ! Wish me luck !

[Hurricane]

Yeah, aren't they supposed to come crashing in from the windows? It's so 20th century to use the door.

[GePap]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
GePap, are you saying that Connorkimbro is a thug?

In a way , yes. Soldiers are around to be nice to everyone. Calling someone a rofessional thug is not to impune on their personality. Thugs can be nice and gentle people at home and with friends, they just have to be thugs at work.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Uncle Sparky
Well, I'm off to a brunch & a matinee ! Wish me luck !

Don't forget your flak jacket and streetsweeper!

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sonic
However, by my description Russian army are also terrorists, because as far as I know they are also intentionally killing lots of civilians in Chechenya...

(I will probably translate and post here an interview with Chechenyan ambassador to Lithuania later)

Yep. Do us a favor. Just when all of you who will read this bullshit and fairytales, remember about one thing- this man who calling himself an “ambassador of Chechnya” is ambassador in “government” which head is Aslan Maskhadov- the men who ordered (and he said it himself to Al-Djazira TV chanel, and terrorist inside theater confirmed that he ordered this) to attack and took civilians including children who caome to see the musical. You just saw this event on your TV. The man who ordered to do this is chief of this so-called ambassador. Their “defense minister” is Shamil Basayev who PERSONALY with his gang, took more then 500 women and JUST BORNED CHILDREN- HOSTAGES when they captured a hospital in Bunedovsk city few years ago. For this act of glorious fight against unbeliever Maskhadov awarded him by special watch. I just saw video how they laughing during award ceremony. More then 100 were killed. This “man” also ordered to blow-up several apartment buildings in Moscow, Pervomaysk and Kyizlyar. Those are their “government”.
NOW THINK TWICE CAN YOU BELIVE A SINGLE WORD OF THOSE PEOPLE OR NOT. AND HOW MUCH THIER FAIRYTALES COST.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
GePap, are you saying that Connorkimbro is a thug?

Yes, and Lonestar and Midshipman. As GePap writes, however, it doesn't imply anything about their personality. They are all thugs for the US government.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by GePap


In a way , yes. Soldiers are around to be nice to everyone. Calling someone a rofessional thug is not to impune on their personality. Thugs can be nice and gentle people at home and with friends, they just have to be thugs at work.

I beg to differ.

[Sprayber]

I guess i'm only part time thug these days.

[The Mad Monk]

Would one of you gentlemen look up the definition of thug, please?

[chequita guevara]

The state is nothing but a gang of armed thugs.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Eli
(concerning the movie of the Spetznaz guys storming the building)

I'm no spec ops expert... But dont you think they were doing it all way too slowly? They were simply walking in.

It’s good that you don’t know how they did this it means they did it right.
TV company NTV just said that specnaz used help of Moscow’s “diggers” to enter the building. The diggers explored underground communications that helped specnaz to enter the building later.

My suggestion that video you saw, was made when everything was almost over. 99% it was additional support units who entered already liberated building to evacuate hostages.
If you noticed they broke glasses to just make escape of hostages easier. It wasn't main battle group I'm 100% sure.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The state is nothing but a gang of armed thugs.

Feel free to continue.

[GePap]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Would one of you gentlemen look up the definition of thug, please?

well:

thug 1. a member of a former group of India that murdered and robbed in the services of Kali 2. A rough. brutal hoodlum, gangster, robber, etc.

Soldier 1. a person serving in an army, member of an army 2.a) an enlisted person, as distinguished from one holding a warrant or commission b) any low ranking member of a mafia family.

(Webster's New World Dictionary, third college edition)


Some possibility for overlap in the two that i see. but if you fell so offended by thug (damn that kali!), fine, just call them killers. Is that better?

[Giancarlo]

For whoever said that the Russians were going in too slowly you must know that there were bombs placed throughout the building.

The death toll going up was very tragic... however it still could of been much, much, much worse.

[The Mad Monk]

It would be interesting to see what portion of the U.S. Military has actually killed anyone.

[GePap]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
It would be interesting to see what portion of the U.S. Military has actually killed anyone.

Perhaps about the same percentage of criminals, or member of the Mafia.
Soldiers are trained to kill, know that they might be asked to kill or have to kill. Wether this actually happens is immaterial to the fact that it is in the job description.

(don't get the impression that I am some sort of pacifist or anti-militarist. I just don't like sugar coating the truth and using clean euphamism to hide the truth, like colateral damage')

[The Mad Monk]

Cut the ****. You're saying that our military are no better than common criminals. I find that disgraceful.

[spartak]

Originally posted by Serb


OK.

Oh.. you really don't know how those guys are talking.
I could provide you with couple of examples... later, if you wish, the funniest examples. j/k and I'm not one of them of course, don't get me wrong. My sister is linguist student and she made research about Russian "mat".

Serb

By all means provide the examples, but perhaps by PM rather then in a thread. ;

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Eli


Yes. They were sleeping and the Russians didnt want to mess with the explosives belts so they just killed them.

it was the best thing to do I guess. what would happen if they woke up while the police were trying to remove the explosives?

[Gangerolf]

did some of the terrorists escape?

first they said that some had escaped, then they denied it, and now they're again saying that some escaped.

I think the russian government has a problem with telling the truth even though Russia is supposed to be a democracy. Just like after the Kursk accident.

[GePap]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Cut the ****. You're saying that our military are no better than common criminals. I find that disgraceful.

Well, tough luck. Your opinions of our military are of no concern to me, as mine should not be to you.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Cut the ****. You're saying that our military are no better than common criminals. I find that disgraceful.

Lots of people feel that way Monk. I dont take it personal. I'm just thankful that people like them stay away from the military. Everyone is better off for that fact.

[Pekka]

Of course they made the shots. No questions about it.
This is not a moral issue any more. When the team goes in, it kills. Anyone with army experience, or otherwise lots of interest on the subject knows that they can't start apprehending the 'enemy' as they counter them. Short burst to the chest. That's it.

It's a BIG risk to STOP in the middle of the raid. They have plans, and they can't take those kinds of risks of failing the mission. They go forward, not backward, no stopping. You can't stop for one person, and screw up the whole mission, it's easier and safer to have a rule not stopping. Just too much variables already.

Ok ok so you say some were unconsciouss? How do they know that? What if they're faking? What if they wake up in the second you turn your back on them and they blow their explosives on the waist? You don't have time to start strapping their wrists and take of the explosives, which might go off as they do that.
No way, too much risks, and not only for the member of the team, but for the whole team and the mission.

There were.. what 40 or 50 terrorists inside? It's difficult already, the only way to have even remote chance is to take out everyone at first sight.
It's sad but it's the only way to do it, and that's how they did it and succeeded. It was victory.

And when you enter a building, take hostages, make threats to kill them.. then you know there's going to be a team ready to kill you. You take the risk and you know it, so you have already accepted that fact.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


So why is the US still on Mexico territory?

Hey now, we "Bought" the southwest fair and square.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Pekka
Of course they made the shots. No questions about it.
This is not a moral issue any more. When the team goes in, it kills. Anyone with army experience, or otherwise lots of interest on the subject knows that they can't start apprehending the 'enemy' as they counter them. Short burst to the chest. That's it.

It's a BIG risk to STOP in the middle of the raid. They have plans, and they can't take those kinds of risks of failing the mission. They go forward, not backward, no stopping. You can't stop for one person, and screw up the whole mission, it's easier and safer to have a rule not stopping. Just too much variables already.

Ok ok so you say some were unconsciouss? How do they know that? What if they're faking? What if they wake up in the second you turn your back on them and they blow their explosives on the waist? You don't have time to start strapping their wrists and take of the explosives, which might go off as they do that.
No way, too much risks, and not only for the member of the team, but for the whole team and the mission.

There were.. what 40 or 50 terrorists inside? It's difficult already, the only way to have even remote chance is to take out everyone at first sight.
It's sad but it's the only way to do it, and that's how they did it and succeeded. It was victory.

And when you enter a building, take hostages, make threats to kill them.. then you know there's going to be a team ready to kill you. You take the risk and you know it, so you have already accepted that fact.

Pekka, This sounds entirely reasonable to me. However, put this event in Israel and you would have pro-Palestinian posters say something like this:

"First, we must understand that the cause of the "freedoms fighters' brave action at the theater is the illegal and brutal occupation of Chechnya by the Russians. The poor and hopeless Chechnians have a right to resist this illegal and brutal occupation of their lands by whatever means are necessary.

While we do not condone the killing of innocent civilians, we must also say that there would have been no one killed had the Russians simply agreed to end their illegal and brutal occupation of Chechnya. All the civilian deaths are the responsibility of the Russian government.

But finally, the Russians are clearly guilty of war crimes by first gassing into unconsciousness these brave freedom fighters and then shooting them when they didn't promptly surrender. We demand the immediate surrender of all responsible for this gross violation of human rights, up to and including that mass murderering war criminal, Putin.

And finally, our hearts go out to the mothers of these fallen Islamic martyrs. We know they are now receiving their just rewards from Allah in the hereafter."

This kind of talk may seem gross and offensive in this context. I can assure you it is gross and offensive when it is said in the context of the ME as well by pro-Palesinian posters.