Stop B****ing about PTW - Page 3

Hurin · November 1, 2002, 13:11

One final thought on this. . . I've seen a bunch of posts about all the Beta Testers "eventually being able to get it going."

Forgive me, but its my belief that the beta testing phase should be used to make it so that all the things that the beta testers had to do are no longer necessary:

In other words, you can look at that statement from two angles:

"Hey! Look, all our Beta Testers finally got the game running! Let's ship it!"

or

"Wow! Look at all the problems our beta testers had getting the game to run. We can't expect our users to go through all that! We need to get this polished."

Just saying that all the beta testers got it running eventually isn't really indicative of whether the game is ready for release or not.

H

Whohangs · November 1, 2002, 13:59

Hurin's previous post was dead-on. I am a consumer and came to these forums for information on whether or not I should buy this product. There are a lot of competing products out there and as much as I have loved the Civ series prior to Civ 3 (still enjoyed Civ 3, but not as much) I would like to purchase the best ones. The complaints, reviews, and praise for this product are definitely appreciated by me.

You've helped me make an informed decision on whether or not to spend $30 on this product, wait, or whether I should spend it on another product.

Traelin · November 1, 2002, 15:25

Quote:

Originally posted by [FX]Roman
I dont think anyone bought this game just for the improvments for 1player, they wanted to play online.

Actually I was going to buy it for the SP enhancements. I was thinking about playing MP occasionally, but from the sounds of it it probably wouldn't work on my 56k connection.

Ozymandous · November 1, 2002, 16:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Obese Monkfish
I agree. This is an industry. This is SUPPOSED to be a multiplayer game. I have a very, very hard time believing that Civ 3 is laggy out of necessity, when such games like AoK, all the Quakes, UT, etc, ANY number of other multi games that have to be far more realtime, are so smooth!

This is ridiculous. I am very, very pissed.

*sigh*

Notice anything about the games you mentioned? Like maybe they were initially designed and BUILT with MP in mind and Civ3 was NOT?

Not that I am making excuses for problems, but to compare Civ3 to AOE/AOK is like buying a Yugo and then complaining that you can't get it to pull a Semi-trailer after you bought bigger tires and a bigger engine.

Hurin · November 1, 2002, 16:35

Actually, you are making excuses.

Two problems with what you just said:

#1. According to Firaxis's press information from the beginning, Civ3 was *always* intended to be multiplayer. They just abandoned multiplayer when they ran out of development time.

#2. Given an entire year (and probably quite a bit of original development time), I don't think it's too much to ask that a turn-based game be made playable via the internet.

Finally, I would even understand if the game worked in normal turn-based mode with minimal lag, but turnless and all the other fancy stuff sucked.

But here's the thing. . . just getting a game *started* via the internet is excruciatingly difficult. Then, of course, you have all the crashing (even when just entering or exiting the program), etc. I don't know if it's poor code, the choice of gamespy, publishing deadlines, lack of staff, lack of funding, or all of the above. . . but this game is in a sorry state. And all that has *very* little to do with the (mostly false) statement that Civ3 wasn't intended to be a mp game.

Hurin

Strakorfsky · November 1, 2002, 18:48

Hurin....

Hm, you know, consumer liability to the product based on satisfaction. Why do you continue to play?

If it is so horribly bad, just be patiant for time, you act like they need to get everything done in one day.

Hurin, your patiance (as a consumer) has porbbaly been temperered. But that doesn't mean you can flame about the game all over the threads. E-MAIL firaxis your problem.

If so, just quit playing until the porblem is fixed. I am sure Firaxis won't let this go undone. And please, repeating your sad story over and over to us gets annoying.

I am getting the game on Saturday. Whether or not it works on MP for now is not that bad. I would like to see the new Civilizations and play wiht ym friends on TCP and LAN.

Anyways, stop flamming your story, and stop being so bias, not like you're perfect.

-Ronald

Hurin · November 1, 2002, 20:14

Quote:

Hm, you know, consumer liability to the product based on satisfaction.

Okay, this made no sense. I realize you're from Russia so perhaps English isn't your first language. I tried to guess what you meant here, but I just couldn't figure it out. So we'll move on. . .

Quote:

If it is so horribly bad, just be patiant for time, you act like they need to get everything done in one day.

This is getting old. I have been patient with many, many games. Indeed, I was patient, and a defender of Firaxis, when Civ3 first came out with so many flaws.

What you need to understand is that this trend of releasing very shoddy software is getting worse because too many people like you are willing to just say, "oh well. . . making a game is hard."

If everyone reacted like you, we could all have big group hugs with the developers, who would then have no incentive to release decent games or make any effort to release a game with as few bugs as possible. Because, well, to criticize them would be mean.

Quote:

Hurin, your patiance (as a consumer) has porbbaly been temperered. But that doesn't mean you can flame about the game all over the threads. E-MAIL firaxis your problem.

Again, due to language issues which aren't really your fault, I'm going to have to ignore that first sentence. I think, though, that what you meant to say is that my patience as a consumer has been compromised (?). By this game? You bet it has!

But, moving on. . . where exactly have I flamed? Have I been abusive? Have I called Firaxis names? How exactly have I been "all over" the threads. Off the top of my head, I think I have posted in a total of 4. And in only two of them have I even been critical. In the others, I've posted tips on how I got it working (such as it is).

Quote:

If so, just quit playing until the porblem is fixed. I am sure Firaxis won't let this go undone. And please, repeating your sad story over and over to us gets annoying.

I have quit playing MP. But I'm confused, some people say: "You just need to keep working at it". . . and now your'e saying "If it doesn't work, give up and wait."

Look, I'm a network and systems admin. . . given enough time, I can get just about anything to work. . . and I did finally get PTW to work. Once working (minimally), it still needs a *lot* of polish and fixes to even come *close* to what a finished piece of software from a reputable developer should look like.

As for my posts being annoying. . . nobody is forcing you to read them. Furthermore, you exaggerate both the volume, and the vehemence of my posts. There are many others who have posted much more, and been more rude than I.

And, I would point out that some have thanked me for the information I have provided as it has allowed them to follow the advice you yourself just recommended (to wait before purchasing until the game is fixed).

Apparently, in your ideal world, we should all just remain quiet so that everyone can assume it works fine. And then when it doesn't work. . . we all just talk about how good single-player is until someone at Firaxis gets a psychic flash that something might be wrong with multiplayer and. . . gosh darn it. . . they just might want to take a look at it.

May I submit that your rose-colored glasses view of this situation might also be considered annoying? Especially because (again) you still don't own the game yet you continually just sit back and say: "Chill everyone! Can't we all just get along?"

I should also point out that I have posted the vast majority of what you seem to consider "flaming" here. You know, in the thread whose basic premise is "Stop posting about your problems." Sorry, but if you're going to start a thread about why we shouldn't post our complaints, you're going to get some responses about why our complaints are not only legitimate, but necessary.

Quote:

I am getting the game on Saturday. Whether or not it works on MP for now is not that bad. I would like to see the new Civilizations and play wiht ym friends on TCP and LAN.

Good for you. I'm glad that makes you happy. I, on the other hand, am still disturbed by one of my favorite gaming companies continuing what seems to be a deepening trend of problematic releases. I didn't complain about Civ3 because it was still playable and fun. After all, it was their first botched release. So I stood up for them. But now it looks like a trend, and this release is so much less polished and functioning than Civ3 ever was. . .

Quote:

Anyways, stop flamming your story, and stop being so bias, not like you're perfect.

I'm not perfect!?! Oh no! And here I've been under this misconception!

You see, the funny thing is that I have always been biased. . . as pro-developer. That's why I'm even more upset now. . . because now I see this trend even infecting the developers I consider(ed) to be class acts. This is the most problematic release I've seen all year, and I play a lot of games. I feel really bad for Firaxis because I've always held them to a high standard. . . their reputation has always been solid (Civ3 problems aside). In essence, I'm saying all this because I care. I'm saying all this because I hate the fact that all those who whined before me are gradually being proven right.

You should just hope that a year down the road, you're not sounding exactly like me. But, if you're not, it'll be because Firaxis got their act together because of fan outcry. . . not because people like you sat around and said: "It's all good. Just be patient."

To be clear, companies can't survive if they continue to launch games in this fashion. Look what happened to OSI.

And finally, consider yourself ignored. You're really not addressing any of my points anymore. You're really just engaging in personal attacks and telling people to not raise valid concerns about the quality of the game they purchased and the level of support provided.

Speaking of support. . . has anyone heard *anything* from *anyone* at Firaxis about all these problems? Has the Civ3 page been updated with the patch yet? Has the support site for PTW been added to the Firaxis Support area? No. . . nothing.

I used to hate this argument, but. . . quite simply, if everyone is happy with this type of releases (like you) and this level of communication and support, then games will continue to get worse and worse. . .

Best Regards,

Hurin

[FX]Roman · November 1, 2002, 20:30

Quote:

In your world, we should all just remain quiet, and everyone can assume it works fine. And then when it doesn't work. . . we all just talk about how good single-player is until someone at Firaxis gets a psychic flash that something might be wrong with multiplayer and. . . gosh darn it. . . they might want to take a look at it.

Hurin, I think it's safe to say... That I want your man-babies. You da best.

Hurin · November 1, 2002, 20:56

Of course, no sooner do I comment on the lack of feedback from Firaxis than I see this on the Apolyton front page:

"We`re aware that the gamespy connection stuff is problematic right now and it`s the focus of our team. We`ve got a list of things that will be fixed in this patch and that along with host slowdowns are on the agenda. So far I haven`t heard of any single player issues, editor or LAN/PBEM/Hotseat issues so right now we`re focused on internet performance....

We`re looking into a list of about 5 major issues related to internet play right now. One new feature of the patch will be a direct connect IP option."

Now, that's all good stuff. Congrats to Firaxis for getting that information out there.

Gee, I wonder how they knew about all the problems though?

H

notyoueither · November 1, 2002, 22:40

You have many valid points Hurin, however I fear you are going to be disappointed more and more with games.

Gone are the days they would work till it was perfect, or near prefect and then release it. Now it seems that the publishers demand something that can be put on a CD and that will install on most computers by date x. Then they leave the developer to clean up the mess.

This has happened with a number of games recently, and it means the fans should be paying more attention to each other before they make a purchase if they have any doubts. And the fans should have doubts.

If I were to buy a game on release day, I would look at who the the developer is. Is it a developer with a track record of supporting their games long after release (such as Firaxis with Civ3)? Or is it a company who releases and runs (such as [fill in the blank])?

Actually, to be honest, I would buy just about any civ right off the bat and hope for the best down the road.

There are going to be many more releases of games that need a lot of fixing right off the bat. There will be some that are near perfect. I think the percentage of the former are going to increase as instances of the later become rarer and rarer. That is the trend, I think.

sprucemoose3311 · November 2, 2002, 01:21

Wow, I was going to reserve it but decided not to for money shortage reasons. then today I was about to buy this game. I think I will wait to see what it looks like after the SECOND patch. I have a simple solution to this problem, scrap the civlization series and make a sequel to alpha centauri

My UN will be defea...err crush you Believers!

Hurin · November 2, 2002, 02:36

Quote:

There are going to be many more releases of games that need a lot of fixing right off the bat. There will be some that are near perfect. I think the percentage of the former are going to increase as instances of the later become rarer and rarer. That is the trend, I think.

You are correct, that is the trend. I've been doing this for over a decade and I've noticed the same thing. And, I fear it is irreversible.

Until recently, I didn't care that much. When Ultima IX was buggy as hell, I suffered through it and stuck up for Origin. When UO was buggy, I stuck up for them again. When Civ3 was buggy, I gave Firaxis the benefit of the doubt. Bugs and patches were just part of the hobby. I actually used to get pissed at people like me who complained about it.

But the thing is, I'm finally starting to lose my patience with this stuff because even the reputable development houses are now practicing "ship now, fix later."

I didn't mind this attitude so much when the problems were minor. . . but lately it's getting to the point where those houses that used to be dependable are shipping what is essentially beta software. . . and making no apologies for it!

But, here's the thing. . . the ultimate blame lies with us, the consumer. If we wouldn't stand for it, they wouldn't do it. That's why the premise of this thread is so frustrating, and the "hey man, what's the big deal, it will be fine eventually" attitude of the original author is so counter-productive. It may make the person feel like an easy-going, cool guy. . . but it's actually part of the problem.

If the trend is to be reversed, we need to all be a bit choosier. I'm not one of those people who starts talking nonsense about class-action suits, demanding restitution, or even boycotts. But, in the future, I won't be buying a Firaxis game on day one.

They used to have the benefit of the doubt in my book. They were one of the good ones. But this is pretty darn bad. . . and now it's not the first time.

I'm guessing that they wanted to ship by November. . . probably because their publisher demanded that they have it on the shelves for the beginning of the holiday shopping season. . . so Firaxis may have been under external pressure to ship.

But, if we are going to continue to blindly buy games from developers who do this sort of thing. . . we have nobody to blame but ourselves for this trend that you and I both see as only getting worse.

Best Regards,

Hurin

vmxa1 · November 2, 2002, 04:43

Can't really argue with that.

dirtstylez79 · November 2, 2002, 12:54

Case is simple

Civ3 rocks
Firaxis is a big $$$ company and sid meier's is a rich man
Civ3 PTW dosent work over internet
Gamespy is a BS company
Civ3 PTW got shipped by Infogrames
We all gave our money to Firaxis and Inforgrames
Firaxis will fix the thing soon
Infogrames dont give a damm ,we bought the box

We all whine for nothing

Send Infogrames your tought about their way to do business

And while your at it ask them if they go in the Industry of Movies if they will ship movie Dvd's with only images and no sound.

Because thats about the same thing we bought , a game to lay online over internet who dosent work with internet

case closed

asleepathewheel · November 2, 2002, 15:07

Quote:

Originally posted by dirtstylez79
Case is simple

Civ3 rocks
Firaxis is a big $$$ company and sid meier's is a rich man
Civ3 PTW dosent work over internet
Gamespy is a BS company
Civ3 PTW got shipped by Infogrames
We all gave our money to Firaxis and Inforgrames
Firaxis will fix the thing soon
Infogrames dont give a damm ,we bought the box

We all whine for nothing

Send Infogrames your tought about their way to do business

And while your at it ask them if they go in the Industry of Movies if they will ship movie Dvd's with only images and no sound.

Because thats about the same thing we bought , a game to lay online over internet who dosent work with internet

case closed

I think that is a decent summation