PTW - New Stuff, Mysteries, and Thoughts

Theseus · November 2, 2002, 22:38

Well, I started my first game tonight... we've got a lot to figure out and play with.

First, there have definitely been some MAJOR tweaks to the AI. Buying workers? Forget it... I tried to buy 2 early on from Caesar, and he wanted 184 gold + 5 gpt! A little bit later, I realized that ALL the AI civs wer 3-4 techs ahead of me, AND each had 200-400 gold, under Despotism.

Second, the Celtic Swordsman is just brutal. Nothing can stand in its way (very expensive though... imagine my surprise when I realized it costs 80 GOLD to upgrade Warriors). I don;t know about the other UUs yet, but some serious tattooed whoop-ass oscillation is the only thing that has given me a chance.

Third, the interface improvements are just GREAT. Forget the MP craziness... for SP, this is a must-have.

As people get PTW, I'll be interested in what we see.

Dominae · November 2, 2002, 23:37

I haven't had the pleasure of seeing the "Worker-buying fix" myself, but it nonetheless brings me great pleasure to hear a report that the AI wants at least 100 gold per Worker. Marvelous.

I've noticed that Barbarians act a lot differently. They won't beeline for the nearest target anymore. In fact, they appear to ignore military units and concentrate on disrupting your cities. This makes them a tad tougher to deal with, since you can't taunt a Barb to get him to assault your fortified Warrior (on a mountain, no less).

At first I thought that the Numidian Mercs (the Carthaginian UU) was a tad overpowered, but I'm glad to see that their high cost balances them out. I like to think of them as Swordsmen that don't require Iron (although their stats are flipped).

I haven't really been tempted into building any Outposts yet. The problem is, you lose the Worker. As the "Worker-buying exploit" showed us, early Workers are pivotal. But, when you can finally spare a Worker, you've probably finished REXing and don't need Outposts. There are two times that I would consider building them: first, if I capture foreign Workers and I early on and want to avoid any future negative relations; second; if I'm playing on a large or huge map, where you eventually have to stop REXing even if the landmass isn't covered.

Goody huts appear to give free cities more often (not just Settlers). I may have noticed this because I'm mostly playing with the Americans in MP (I don't usually play Expansionist civs in SP), but twice in three games I got a free city out of my first or second hut.

The new automation options and buttons are just fantastic, especially the one that forces all automatic moves to happen immediately; I always hated to have to wait until the end of the turn for my Workers to finish their "Complete in 1 turn" jobs.

As I play more I'll post some comments on the new civs, especially their UUs. One thought for now: the Mongols look like a nice addition for us warmongers (eh, "late-blooming builders"); their traits allow them to dominate the early game, while their UU comes at a fantastic time for a GA. Basically they've got amazing "timing", which, as we know from the poor Zulus, is critical for success in sustained aggression.

Dominae

Dominae · November 2, 2002, 23:38

Wow, just got Prince. Yay 'Poly!

vmxa1 · November 2, 2002, 23:44

Yes I wen to buy some workers and it was no longer a 20-30 gold thing. I have a sensation that the barbs were no longer slaming on in. They seemed tolook around and bail out if a stronger unit came their way, but did want to pillage. I am doing Arabs so far and have yet to get my UU. I want to see how they look and play.

Theseus · November 3, 2002, 02:36

Yeah, the Barbs are dancing around, which is actually quite a pain. I got my first horde in a while, which was great for the CSwords, but took probably 10 turns to deal with the remnants.

Dominae, what's the auto-move thing? Which button?

All the *****ing notwithstanding, I have to say that Civ3, with the patches and now PTW, is the most amazing game I have ever had / played (for reference, other than Civ-type games, my previous pick would have been Wing Commander Privateer). Playing the Celts today was a whole new experience... and then Braveheart was on TV tonight, so I know I'll have dreams of running into battle naked and covered in tattoes and blue paint!!!

(sorry for the image)

Jaybe · November 3, 2002, 03:43

Theseus, I believe the "do the auto-moves NOW" button is MP only.

Dominae · November 3, 2002, 11:38

Yup, sorry for not being clear on that one; CTRL-U is the right hotkey, but it only works in MP. Wonder why...?

Dominae

lockstep · November 3, 2002, 11:41

Any thoughts on the additional industrial age features yet? What's it like to go for the 'money' route (stock markets & commercial docks)? What do civil defenses and radar towers mean for the common 'blitzkrieg' strategy?

Objectivist · November 3, 2002, 13:10

Celts, eh? I wonder if my Celtic strategy thread had an influence on your choice

Actually Theseus , I am curious to the degree the Celtic thread influenced your choice of Civ. Did my thread make you want to play the Celts first? If you could also provide any feedback as to how useful the strategies in the actual thread were I would appreciate it.

Thanks alot,
Obj

Theseus · November 3, 2002, 21:50

I answered in your thread.

I started another game tonight... I want to see what happens with Numidean Mercs as an offensive force (so-so).

AGAIN, the AI civs are performing at a wholly different and higher level. BOOM, they're all 2-3 techs ahead (on Emperor).

Research seems to have changed significantly as well... I am researching Theology, pretty sure that I'm the first, and I am UNABLE to research in less than 20 turns. I'm set to to 10% research.

"Details" in the Foreign Advisor screen is great.

Theseus · November 3, 2002, 21:59

And it's slightly embarassing how many ruins dot my continent.

Jawa Jocky · November 4, 2002, 10:54

Adams Smith Trading Wonder has jumped several positions on my List of Wonders. With the addition of commericial docks and stock exchanges that is even more free upkeeps from that wonder. I actually used a leader to build it.

Catt · November 4, 2002, 11:00

I've only played one game on a tiny map as Celts, with the Scandanavians and Mongols on my continent and the Carthaginians across a narrow sea lane (so contact with all possible) -- whole post subject to disclaimer of only one limited game. Too early for me to say with any certainty that there are truly significant changes with the AI yet, but if you forced me to give an opinion (

) I would also say that there have been some pretty substantial tweaks to the AI and general game core.

We know about the changes to the barbs. As to tech advancement, I also got way behind very quickly (on Emperor) -- I attributed it to goody huts since both my continent-mates were expansionist, but given the other early reports, I wouldn't be surprised to learn of some tweak which affects AI tech acquisition. One of the more pleasant surprises was the infrastructure development -- the Mongols (Mil - Exp; build Off. Units and Production often) had a robust infrastructure -- lots of city improvements, including going so far as to have stock exchanges in several cities not too long after discovering Corporation. I frankly expected them to be a bit like the Zulu, but no - the conquered Mongol cities were in many cases very well-developed.

Catt

ducki · November 4, 2002, 14:44

I think the AI has been seriously tweaked...
I fairly recently graduated to Regent and did rather well, trying a game or two on Monarch(ouch!) and I am 99.99999% sure that it's much harder now.

I even downgraded to Warlord to try out the Celts, since I normally don't play anything but Industrious and boy, howdy! the AI sure seemed to be moving faster than normal on improvements and tech.

Maybe it was an unlucky start, where all the AIs started trading tech early or maybe I still don't know how to do an early "rush" or something, but I fell rather behind on warlord! I'm used to being a bit behind until mid-Middle Ages on Regent and Monarch, but Warlord?

Also, the new Barbarian AI, while occasionally annoying to someone who will build 5 or 6 cities before building any defenders, I'm glad they're not so stupid any more and will actually run away instead of giving me a bunch of Elite Warriors early on.

So, to bring this wretched ramble to an end, I definitely think the AI has been given a serious upgrade. Possibly a full "game difficulty setting" upgrade, without the production bonus, of course.

Kizami · November 4, 2002, 19:57

Ruins in PTW???

Dominae · November 4, 2002, 22:13

Jeff Morris confirmed in the PTW release party chat that there were no significant changes to the AI. The only major additions involved getting it to deal with the new improvements and terraforming options. Specifically, the AI makes a point of destroying Outposts although doesn't build them much itself, but aggressively builds Radar Towers once they become available. Of course, the Worker-buying "exploit" was also fixed. He didn't mention any added aggressiveness in tech trading or science.

Dominae

vmxa1 · November 4, 2002, 22:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Kizami
Ruins in PTW???

Remains of now gone city. If you raze it it leaves a pile trash on the tile (looks like those in Warlords). You can clear it by making a tile improvemnet such as a road or of course a new city.

Theseus · November 4, 2002, 22:54

Poor Arrian.

I don;t buy it about the AIs... it 'feels' to different, even with limited gameplay so far. Only two games for me, and some anecdotal reporting here, but I think some significant tweaking has happened (nod to us: build preferences?).

Funny thing... the Firaxis people can only really interface with us and CFC, and I think they like the 'game' of throwing out changes and seeing us react (e.g., the barb uprising thing).

Dominae · November 4, 2002, 23:24

I have to mention that Jeff wasn't "entirely sure" what changes were made (not his responsibility), he just knew no major changes were on the agenda. Perhaps Soren did some nice tweaking for his own amusement (and ours!).

Dominae

laissez-faire · November 4, 2002, 23:41

My kingdom for a copy!

ducki · November 5, 2002, 01:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae
I have to mention that Jeff wasn't "entirely sure" what changes were made (not his responsibility), he just knew no major changes were on the agenda. Perhaps Soren did some nice tweaking for his own amusement (and ours!).

Dominae

I'd certainly be willing to grant that no major changes were made, but when dealing with something as complex as 6 "AI" systems and a human player, it doesn't take much of a tweak to have serious impact.

So I retract my statement that "serious" changes were made to the AI in favor of saying that the AI is behaving much more "effectively" or perhaps "smartly" in that things are tougher now than they were the day before I installed PTW.

I'm sure any of us could go into the editor and make "minor" tweaks that have "major" impact.

Thanks for pointing that out, Dominae.

vmxa1 · November 5, 2002, 01:55

I have only one complete and a bunch of short runs, and I thought it was a bit smarter, but too soon to be sure.

Catt · November 5, 2002, 03:08

Quote:

Jeff Morris confirmed in the PTW release party chat that there were no significant changes to the AI. The only major additions involved getting it to deal with the new improvements and terraforming options.

[. . . .]

I have to mention that Jeff wasn't "entirely sure" what changes were made (not his responsibility), he just knew no major changes were on the agenda. Perhaps Soren did some nice tweaking for his own amusement (and ours!).

It seems like Firaxians (even Soren) always say that very little was done to the AI ("just a few tweaks here and there"), and yet how differently does the game play now compared to 1.07f?

I think my favorite was 1.29f -- "no major tweaks done . . . although the way tech costs are modified by difficulty has changed a little bit" -- this in a chat (nothing in the readme). What were the effects of the changes? 1400's AD spaceship launches long gone; the tech broker strategy seriously challenged; the approach to technology advancement radically changed; strategic warfare changed due to longer periods with specific unit viability; etc., etc., etc. Also of course "a bunch of other little tweaks . . ." in a highly complex system. Don't get me wrong -- I'm currently too busy to play much at all and so have little direct experience with PTW - but I will be surprised if new and interesting AI behaviors don't gradually bubble up into the collective Apolyton knowledge base.

As I said in the PTW forum, even if you don't give a fig about MP, new civs and units, new improvements and worker builds, etc., as long as $30 doesn't bust your family budget / allowance accumulation, you gotta buy PTW just to stay in the commendable and aggressive "AI performance upgrade chain" provided by Firaxis (now that there will be no more patches for stock Civ III).

Catt

TbTimVa · November 5, 2002, 10:27

I have noticed that promotions come less easily. My
regular warrior had to kill (9) barbarians before receiving
the promotion to veteran status. This rate may be
different in combat against A. I. units. I have only
fought Barbs so far. Without barracks, it may take
quite a while to get elites.

Master Marcus · November 5, 2002, 15:03

So far, no MAJOR changes about the AI behavior, but many SLIGHT tweaks I noticed so far not mentioned in the PtW 1.01 & 1.04f readme like:

The AI is smarter when trading ( ask more gold ), priorize much more great wonders than before ( Colossus at 1600 BC! and the Oracle by 1000's BC by another civ is something never seen before at Regent/Monarch diff where in Civ III classic the firsts GW were generally made by 800-500 BC.): when everybody has just reached the Middle Ages, ALL of the ancient GW - including GreatWall & HangingGardens - were already made. It seems that it's at the expense of the Ai expansion which seems to be slightly slower, not that much than before at Monarch, but noticeable.

Also, the number of offensive units made by pink civs vs aggressive civs seems to be upgraded, e.g. more gap between the two groups: the Mongols and Carthaginians make lots of them - my military was weak next to them for a very long time - and at the same time, the Mongols were making 2 GW....well, otherwise the new civs are quite well balanced and fitting well with the original ones.

They seek allies when they can also, it's not difficult to be involved in a world war in PtW. With the additions of the new units ( namely medieval infantry and such powerful UU like Galic Swordsman, Numidian Merc, Sipahi...), wars in Civ III are even more attrition-oriented: the player must be patient, and it takes a long time before expanding by conquest on larger maps. You must accept to lose units and make relentless attempts before conquering many cities...same goes for the AI. So far, I like the PtW SP game and it's obvious the team has put the efforts to make the SP almost flawless but at the expense of the buggy MP so far...

badams52 · November 5, 2002, 16:11

You know what I'd like to see, the AI pre-building it's wonders

or at least making sure to build them in the most productive city in the empire. Too often you see the GL being started in a city with 4! production.

That plus the cascading effect would really make it difficult to out build the AI.

mrmitchell · November 7, 2002, 16:11

Both Civ and Barb AI are smarter,

I got pounded into the ground on Warlord too but maybe I'm jsut not that experienced.

Here's the Barb part: Yeah, their warriors did turn away. They stopped giving me Elites. The other part is that once they realized I was dead meat versus the Civiliztion AIs they started throwing everything at me almost in perfect harmony with the Civ AI's plans...as though they were working together in concert...

vmxa1 · November 7, 2002, 18:05

That was the first thing I saw the barbs no longer always willing to attack if you had a much better unit. I had an archer out and the barb ran away. The 8 pack of horsemen starting attack a cit and after the pikes killed 4 and had little damage and had been promoted, the rest of the horsemen and a warrior did not come in. I had to send troops to get them.

Master Marcus · November 7, 2002, 19:05

yeah, in my actual game, three packs of barb horsemen have approached two of my ancient frontier towns WITHOUT ATTACKING. One pack continued its riding and attacked one of my units on the terrain, the other pack seem to have encountered a few turns later arab units. The last pack of 4 finally attacked a weakier town near my capital ( one defender only ).

ZargonX · November 7, 2002, 19:31

Yeah, I've definately noted the barbarians new strategies. I've chased many of them into the mountains, only to have them show up out of the fog a few turns later down the road a bit and head for less defended territory.